Tough choices, do my PhD or try again for MD school

[ftcnt]

I'm in a tough bind with the decisions that I have to make. I completed an undergrad degree but my gpa was not that good <3.0 but enough to go to graduate school in occupational therapy which I did very well in >3.5. I've since started practicing but also continued my schooling and about 1 year away from finishing my masters of public health and thesis with gpa >3.7. I have always had an interest in medicine but also research and like many clinicians would like to merge the two in my work once I'm all done which could be decades from now at my rate. I enjoy research but the patient interaction is something that would be integral to my job. I love that part. I can't separate the two and would like to ultimately be a physician that does research.

 

I don't know if I should complete a PhD, hoping that some schools look highly upon it or try applying until I get in? I've been told that a PhD will not boost my chances that much in terms of securing admission and it is a serious commitment. Am I wasting my time applying to medicine in Canada. Some have suggested I go to the Caribbean but I know all the pitfalls that await me if I go there. I rather stay at home and go to school here. Any thoughts? Thanks. oh yeah, my MCAT is 30 Q.

[tallguy408]

What would your cumulative GPA be around? Unfortunately, your post is a bit vague. Another HUGE factor is your life experiences. You sound like you certainly have a few good ones. Share a little more info on those two areas and I could give you a better idea. Your chances are probably better than you think!

[ftcnt]

sorry about that, my undergrad gpa was 2.8, my grad cgpa now is probably 3.6. This includes all my course work from both masters

[tallguy408]

I think you have a legitimate shot at med school here in Canada. Your marks are not stellar as I am sure you know, but with a strong upward trend in your marks as you indicate, I think that poor undergrad marks might not be taken as seriously. I know others who have had low undergrad marks but have gotten in. Perhaps, depending on your age etc., there may be some matriculation/special consideration venues for you to pursue also. Another factor to consider is whether all of your undergrad years are poor, or just one or two pulling down the cGPA. Many schools use formulas that eliminate poor years or poor classes.

 

As for the PhD, if you want to get a PhD, then do so. But I don't think this will drastically improve your chances. I think your best bet at this point would be to send out some emails to some admissions offices, telling them what you have told me here, and then some. Some schools may be adamant that your undergrad marks do not meet their minimum cut-offs, while others may leave the door open for you to apply. Either way, collecting this info can't hurt. Make sure you email the Head Admissions Officer though, and not just some underling. They will be able to give you the best information.

 

Best of luck, and feel free to post some more if you have other questions!

Hope I was able to help some!

[ftcnt]

yeah thats very useful, im in my 20s but id like to get this going. i will take your suggestion and email some med schools to see if they will consider my application for the following year. lets see how it goes. do you think i should write the mcat again to try to get >35 ?

[tallguy408]

I wouldn't at this point. 30Q is not a bad score. What are your extracurriculars, leadership, volunteering, travel etc. like? I would say these are probably areas that can be improved upon the easiest. I doubt that a few more points on the MCAT would do you a ton of good.

 

Another thing to possibly consider: I know you mentioned that you have looked into the Carribean, but have you looked at Ireland, Scotland, or Australia? These are also good international options. And did you know that foreign-trained medical students who are Canadian Citizens are now able to compete in first-round CaRMs matches? You need only write the Canadian boards to have your training recognized. Perhaps you might want to explore these options further too.

[ftcnt]

yeah i did look at those schools but they are so pricey. ive read on other forums that 1 but 2 lines of credit are what i would need to go to ireland for example. that euro is very expensive. australia is pricey too. i think my bet is to try again this year and work on other parts of my application. its all about the undergrad gpa so ive also thought about going back for another undergrad degree because thats what really counts ! i will also look at american schools and as there are more choices and they may take my lower undergrad gpa with graduate work with greater consideration

[ploughboy]

its all about the undergrad gpa so ive also thought about going back for another undergrad degree because thats what really counts !

 

Unfortunately, that's pretty true. When I was in a similar situation to yours, I decided that improving my undergrad GPA would get me more bang-for-my-buck at more med schools than pursuing graduate work would.

 

With a bit of luck and researching the policies of various schools, you might not have to spend another 4 years in undergrad in order to get into meds. I started a second undergrad in September 2003, and started meds in Sept 2005.

 

Good luck!

[solocup]

You might want to go for less competitive schools in the US. There about 120schools there so you have plenty of choices. Keep in mind that you're going to have a tough fight to get into any residency program in the US or Canada if you got your MD from a non-LCME medical school since you'll be treated as an FMG. I would forget about the PhD if I were you since it looks like you're more interested in doing medicine and you're just using the PhD as a launching pad to get in.

[ftcnt]

thanks and i realize that going aboard will be costly both financially and securing a spot back home. some have told me that if im interested in clinical work only and want to be a family doc the options would be a little easier. im going to try emailing the admission boards and presenting them this situation and see what they say. do you guys have a few students in your classes with phds or other terminal degrees?

[ploughboy]

do you guys have a few students in your classes with phds or other terminal degrees?

 

My class had two in the MD/PhD programme and a number of people with masters. UWO Meds 2010 had two people enter with PhDs. I have no idea what their undergrad GPAs were...

[Rock*]

I'd like to add that if you do decide to do a second undergrad degree, you don't have to finish it to reapply to med school. I did a degree in biochem, got killed in 3rd year (thank you Ottawa U), and had practically no chance of getting in upon completion of my degree. I spent the summer after graduation mulling over the decision of whether to do a masters or another undergrad degree and reapply. In the end, I realized that most med schools still only look at your undergrad marks (western only looks at a fifth year I believe unless someone can correct me on this) so I tried to get another degree in bio with 80% senior level courses (3rd year or higher) and did much better. I then rewrote the MCAT and applied to the US and Canada and got 3 interviews compared to 0 the application cycle before.

 

To make a long story short, after rewriting my MCAT, doing half of a second bio degree, and three interviews later, I'm going to be starting at the University of Calgary in about 2 weeks. If medicine really is your goal, be persistent and you will make it eventually. All that extra suffering will make that acceptance letter taste all that much sweeter

[ftcnt]

ok thats fair enough. thats good that at least some schools will look at my grads not make me do another 4 years to before getting in.

 

i thought about doing some online credits and trying to get a BA since I already have a BSc. anyone try this route before? i was thinking if I could get my transcript evaluated and have credits transfered towards the new degree

[Alastriss]

Which school were you considering? right off the bat i will tell you that many schools will look at your undergrad gpa regardless, Mac needs a 3.0 min, and toronto a 3.0 for grad students, but if u say u are around 2.8 maybe dropping the lowest 4 might push it up to 3.0, and then after that its ur research potential and grad marks that will carry you through.

 

As a non traditional applicant you are already unique and might have a plethora of life experiences that might have developed physician virtues, which you should definetely emphasize on in your application.

 

 

And if you are serious about considering doing residency in canada, then you should try very hard to go to an LCME accredited school, as a previous poster mentioned, money issues aside.

[ftcnt]

thanks for the tips. im going to try to get into a canadian school. im doing some undergrad courses and applying to those schools that will look at my favorably. i hope that as well as my grad work will get me an interview. only time will tell.

[doc2B]

Some schools may actually surprise you with what they determine your GPA to be despite what is posted on their websites.

 

Although I was not accepted this year I am hopeful for next application cycle and I believe that my application is competitive despite being in a similar situation with a low undergrad GPA.

 

I am from the Maritimes and I am only applying to Dalhousie. This year was the first year that non-accepted applicants received a score breakdown. This showed my GPA as 3.7, which is much higher than my actual cGPA (below 3.0, not sure of the exact number) and higher than my final 2 years of undergrad (required for cut-offs, which was approx. 3.4, I believe). My graduate marks were all quite high nothing below a 3.7, however at Dal we don't actually get a graduate GPA. The admissions committee combined my graduate marks and undergraduate marks (I'm not sure exactly how they did this) but I was pleased with the resulting GPA of 3.7 that they used in scoring my application.

 

Out of province students at Dalhousie must meet higher cut-offs, however other schools may use a similar system in determining GPA when an applicant has both undergraduate and graduate educations.

 

I don't know if this helps you at all.

 

Goodluck!

[ftcnt]

Which school were you considering? right off the bat i will tell you that many schools will look at your undergrad gpa regardless, Mac needs a 3.0 min, and toronto a 3.0 for grad students, but if u say u are around 2.8 maybe dropping the lowest 4 might push it up to 3.0, and then after that its ur research potential and grad marks that will carry you through.

 

As a non traditional applicant you are already unique and might have a plethora of life experiences that might have developed physician virtues, which you should definetely emphasize on in your application.

 

 

And if you are serious about considering doing residency in canada, then you should try very hard to go to an LCME accredited school, as a previous poster mentioned, money issues aside.

 

im interested in applying to western and queens (MD programs). im particularly interested in western's MD/PhD program since I have a good foundation of research experience and education and also interested inbecoming a physician scientist.

 

 

doc2B this is good to know and thanks for sharing. i also believe my application is competitive, all that i am missing is the undergraduate gpa. i say "all" but it is a crucial piece that im working on now. otherwise, i think that my graduate grades, mcat score and experience should at get me an interview. good luck to you. what did you study in grad school at Dal?

[doc2B]

doc2B this is good to know and thanks for sharing. i also believe my application is competitive, all that i am missing is the undergraduate gpa. i say "all" but it is a crucial piece that im working on now. otherwise, i think that my graduate grades, mcat score and experience should at get me an interview. good luck to you. what did you study in grad school at Dal?

 

I did a Masters of Health Informatics program.

[Devari]

I'm in a tough bind with the decisions that I have to make. I completed an undergrad degree but my gpa was not that good <3.0 but enough to go to graduate school in occupational therapy which I did very well in >3.5. I've since started practicing but also continued my schooling and about 1 year away from finishing my masters of public health and thesis with gpa >3.7. I have always had an interest in medicine but also research and like many clinicians would like to merge the two in my work once I'm all done which could be decades from now at my rate. I enjoy research but the patient interaction is something that would be integral to my job. I love that part. I can't separate the two and would like to ultimately be a physician that does research.

 

If you have a strong interest in research then a Ph.D. will be absolutely invaluable research training. However, the main drawback is that it takes around 6 to 7 years to complete a Ph.D. in most research fields. In addition, since research is inherently unpredictable it can often be difficult to ensure that your degree is finished by a certain date. This can make it difficult to know when you should apply to medicine because many schools don't allow deferrals if you're offered admission but haven't finished your graduate degree. The combination of the long time commitment and the inherent unpredictability of graduate research mean that if you're going to enrol in a Ph.D. program you should ensure that you have a very strong interest in scientific research. Otherwise it quite simply isn't worth the massive amount of time, effort, and frustration unless you're completely dedicated to the research.

 

I don't know if I should complete a PhD, hoping that some schools look highly upon it or try applying until I get in? I've been told that a PhD will not boost my chances that much in terms of securing admission and it is a serious commitment.

 

Taking a graduate degree will, for the most part, have a very minimal effect on your application. You'll still need to meet the cutoffs for GPA, MCAT, etc., and so it really won't improve your chances of getting an interview. In some cases schools will give a few extra points for having a graduate degree but you often need to have actually been awarded the degree so it won't help if you apply while you're still a graduate student. Also, in the vast majority of cases your graduate marks don't replace your undergrad marks so it won't affect the GPA on your application even if you get a 4.0 in your graduate courses.

 

Am I wasting my time applying to medicine in Canada. Some have suggested I go to the Caribbean but I know all the pitfalls that await me if I go there. I rather stay at home and go to school here. Any thoughts? Thanks. oh yeah, my MCAT is 30 Q.

 

To be quite honest, with a GPA of 2.8 you're simply not going to be competitive at the vast majority of Canadian schools. And even if your GPA meets the minimum cutoffs for application it will still put you at a severe disadvantage unless you have some exceptional life experiences to compensate. However, if the rest of your application is strong then you might want to consider starting another undergraduate degree to improve your GPA. For schools that take your best two undergraduate years it might only take a few more years of undergrad to make your application competitive. To a large extent your GPA is one of those things that will make or break an application because it's used to eliminate a large proportion of the applicant pool. If I was in a situation where a low GPA was holding me back then I would go back to undergrad without hesitation because it's quite simply the most effective use of your time in terms of improving your application.

[Superking25]

im interested in applying to western and queens (MD programs). im particularly interested in western's MD/PhD program since I have a good foundation of research experience and education and also interested inbecoming a physician scientist.

 

The cutoff for Western is two years at or above 3.70...

 

The overall cutoff for Queens is 3.68, or 3.78 for your last two years...

[ftcnt]

thanks everyone for the comments and suggestions. we shall if my approach works or not