How much do dentists make on average in say Ontario?

[xylem29]

Are there any dentists in this forum to clear things out for us?

 

Didn't Koft and PazzoDDS and Dr.BadVibs clear this up already?

 

I think it's pretty safe to assume that Dentists, if they do not earn more than FPs, then they at the very least earn roughly the same - and it is not likely that you will be earning $50,000, which is below what pharmacists make. The important question is, how long does it take to build up a solid patient base.

 

Think about it - we already had several recent dental grads on here telling us how much their friends are making, how much they have been making, my FP has told me that if I want the sweeter gig wrt to money I should go into dentistry, it's been a hot topic over at SDN for years and there is a consensus already that dentists have much better lifestyles and still receive the same monetary compensation as doctors, and the list goes on.

 

And I know part of the equation is cost of education, but I know how banks work, and anyone with half a brain will know that banks give out loans and determine interest rates based on your risk level - so the fact that banks have a dedicated banking package for Medical and Dental students ONLY, where they recieve the highest LOCs available at Prime ONLY, indicates that those entering into dentistry and medicine carry the same level of financial risk in the eyes of the bank - in terms of returns, dentists and physicians are the same to banks, logically, I'd assume they must have similar minimum earnings.

[daryn]

Start up is different. but once the practice is on track income is not an issue.

 

How different?

 

Also, for all you dentists out there, how does one become an associate and how does the income divide between the associate and the ... clinic proprietor? (?! just how do you call them?)

[koft]

Are there any dentists in this forum to clear things out for us?

 

Focus on your study... lol.. you will find out when you graduate. There is a reason why banks are willing to give you a non-secure LOC at prime for up to 150k. If you don't have any potential to repay them, you will have to find other methods to pay for your tuition... Big banks don't like to take risks, they like safe returns on their investment.

________

IOLITE VAPORIZER

[EricCartman]

How different?

 

Also, for all you dentists out there, how does one become an associate and how does the income divide between the associate and the ... clinic proprietor? (?! just how do you call them?)

 

well, one time, a dentist casually mentioned that normally, a new associate may get 30-40% of his/her billings according to the contract. I don't know how accurate this is.

 

But I would think that associates would make a certain percentage of the work they bill?? and if the practice owner is generous enough, maybe year end bonuses??

 

someone willing to elaborate on this? thanks.

[Contach]

well, one time, a dentist casually mentioned that normally, a new associate may get 30-40% of his/her billings according to the contract. I don't know how accurate this is.

 

But I would think that associates would make a certain percentage of the work they bill?? and if the practice owner is generous enough, maybe year end bonuses??

 

someone willing to elaborate on this? thanks.

 

Yup, I've shadowed 2 associates. Both of them take home 40% of their billings. So if they bill 800$ in a day. they are taking home $320 that day. Most of the other money will go toward paying overhead. The owner will not make a lot of money off the associate.. if any... Instead, the associate will provide the owner with patients who would have otherwise signed up with another dentist who could fill him/her into their schedule. Thus the patients come back. In addition to this, the associate makes money off the billings of the hygeniest. However, for the 6-month standard check up a dentist has to take a quick glance at the teeth to look for pathology, as the hygeniest can't do this. And, if the owner doesn't want to be in the office 6 days a week, but instead wants to work 4.. hire an associate to let the hygeinists work while you make bank off them...

[Dr.BadVibes]

You GUys are making it sound so easy....there is a lot more to it than just getting 30-40%.......it isnt so black and white and many other factors need to be taken into consideration:

 

1. Does the associate have to pay their own lab fees

2. Does the associate have to pay their own malpractice and disability insurance

3. What about CE courses?

4. Is the 30-40% based on production or collection? (the type of practice becomes important then......insurance, fee-for-service, Medicaid, etc)

5. What about when u finish the contract.....can you take patients with you to your next practice? Can you open a practice within a certain distance? (some dentists will dictate that you cant open a practice in a 25 mile radius....in a place like Toronto, that wouldnt be possible, but in Orangeville its more practical)

 

Associate contracts vary a lot and I find that many dentists take advantage of naiive newly graduated dentists which is a shame.

 

First thing u guys need to learn is that things are not so black and white. For instance, so many predents tell me all the time, "well if dental school is gonna cost $200K and I will make $100K right away, I can pay off my loans in 2 years, right?"

 

And my response is "uhhh, what about interest? what about living expenses? Im assuming you're gonna wanna buy a house, a car....perhaps have children? what about starting a dental practice.....that aint cheap at all"

 

Dont goto dentistry for the money..........dont be fooled by all the young dentists out there that brag how much money they make and drive fancy cars and live a fancy life........do you know how many of those guys I meet? Its really sad!!!!

 

what they arent telling you is the amount of debt they are accumulating and the improper financial management they are going through to live that type of life......why? because thats the life they've always expected with going into dentistry......those people will regret their choices later on when life bites them in the ass.....

 

yes the money in dentistry is obviously good......but its a long term investment and it'll take some time to live the good life......if you want the bentley in your late 20s....trust me, there are other ways to make a lot of cash then spending 10 more years of frigging tests, lectures and no income after high school and going into more debt...........

 

but if you want to live a well-respected, good life that will be able to provide for a good financially stable family life, then dentistry is a great option.

[xylem29]

You GUys are making it sound so easy....there is a lot more to it than just getting 30-40%.......it isnt so black and white and many other factors need to be taken into consideration:

 

1. Does the associate have to pay their own lab fees

2. Does the associate have to pay their own malpractice and disability insurance

3. What about CE courses?

4. Is the 30-40% based on production or collection? (the type of practice becomes important then......insurance, fee-for-service, Medicaid, etc)

5. What about when u finish the contract.....can you take patients with you to your next practice? Can you open a practice within a certain distance? (some dentists will dictate that you cant open a practice in a 25 mile radius....in a place like Toronto, that wouldnt be possible, but in Orangeville its more practical)

 

Associate contracts vary a lot and I find that many dentists take advantage of naiive newly graduated dentists which is a shame.

 

First thing u guys need to learn is that things are not so black and white. For instance, so many predents tell me all the time, "well if dental school is gonna cost $200K and I will make $100K right away, I can pay off my loans in 2 years, right?"

 

And my response is "uhhh, what about interest? what about living expenses? Im assuming you're gonna wanna buy a house, a car....perhaps have children? what about starting a dental practice.....that aint cheap at all"

 

Dont goto dentistry for the money..........dont be fooled by all the young dentists out there that brag how much money they make and drive fancy cars and live a fancy life........do you know how many of those guys I meet? Its really sad!!!!

 

what they arent telling you is the amount of debt they are accumulating and the improper financial management they are going through to live that type of life......why? because thats the life they've always expected with going into dentistry......those people will regret their choices later on when life bites them in the ass.....

 

yes the money in dentistry is obviously good......but its a long term investment and it'll take some time to live the good life......if you want the bentley in your late 20s....trust me, there are other ways to make a lot of cash then spending 10 more years of frigging tests, lectures and no income after high school and going into more debt...........

 

but if you want to live a well-respected, good life that will be able to provide for a good financially stable family life, then dentistry is a great option.

 

Very true - if you have poor personal finance management, then no high paying career will really do it for you, as most of these careers result in high-debt when you graduate. The reality is however, that it is a very rare and exceptional case for someone to be established and living a life of luxury in their 20s - there really is no other choices out there that combine stability, low-risk, and "likelyhood of a high salary" other than Engineering, Law, Medicine, Dentistry (there are also the trades but I'm excluding that b/c I'm assuming most people who go to university are thinking about white-collar status professions) - but I'd put medicine and Dentistry as the top two wrt to all the listed factors. I think for someone who's willing to live within their means, or even continue their current modest responsible lifestlyes, these professions and their income are AMAZING.

 

I know someone who is 26, and is a very successful entrepreneur in the restaraunt business who's got a multimillion dollar franchise business - just 3 years in the making. He's not living a life of luxury though, b/c he's got debts to pay back to investors and he's focusing on growth. However, how many people can be this lucky? I personally feel that there is no quick way to expensive vacations, luxury cars, luxury condos, etc unless you are lucky or you come from a rich family. Most people who come from middle-class backgrounds will graduate with a huge debt and when you combine this with the necessities of buying a car, raising a family, buying a home, etc many will be forced to live modest but comfortable lives. But if they manage their money properly, they can enjoy these luxuries with time, in their golden years probably - even then, these luxuries would never become routine unless you are extremely wealthy, and most professionals do not become that wealthy.

[PazzoDDS]

You GUys are making it sound so easy....there is a lot more to it than just getting 30-40%.......it isnt so black and white and many other factors need to be taken into consideration:

 

1. Does the associate have to pay their own lab fees

2. Does the associate have to pay their own malpractice and disability insurance

3. What about CE courses?

4. Is the 30-40% based on production or collection? (the type of practice becomes important then......insurance, fee-for-service, Medicaid, etc)

5. What about when u finish the contract.....can you take patients with you to your next practice? Can you open a practice within a certain distance? (some dentists will dictate that you cant open a practice in a 25 mile radius....in a place like Toronto, that wouldnt be possible, but in Orangeville its more practical)

 

Associate contracts vary a lot and I find that many dentists take advantage of naiive newly graduated dentists which is a shame.

 

First thing u guys need to learn is that things are not so black and white. For instance, so many predents tell me all the time, "well if dental school is gonna cost $200K and I will make $100K right away, I can pay off my loans in 2 years, right?"

 

And my response is "uhhh, what about interest? what about living expenses? Im assuming you're gonna wanna buy a house, a car....perhaps have children? what about starting a dental practice.....that aint cheap at all"

 

Dont goto dentistry for the money..........dont be fooled by all the young dentists out there that brag how much money they make and drive fancy cars and live a fancy life........do you know how many of those guys I meet? Its really sad!!!!

 

what they arent telling you is the amount of debt they are accumulating and the improper financial management they are going through to live that type of life......why? because thats the life they've always expected with going into dentistry......those people will regret their choices later on when life bites them in the ass.....

 

yes the money in dentistry is obviously good......but its a long term investment and it'll take some time to live the good life......if you want the bentley in your late 20s....trust me, there are other ways to make a lot of cash then spending 10 more years of frigging tests, lectures and no income after high school and going into more debt...........

 

but if you want to live a well-respected, good life that will be able to provide for a good financially stable family life, then dentistry is a great option.

 

Firstly, let me say that my son informed me about this site and asked me to respond to a couple of posts - this being one of them. He will be applying to D school and is worried about all of the doom and gloom he reads. Really, there is no doom and gloom - dentistry is a great profession and this is a great time to be starting your career.

 

You make some good points but many of the "unknowns" you speak of are really insignificant or irrelevant. I trust that you must be a new grad.

 

Lab fees: come off of the associates gross production just as it would come off of the Owner's gross production. This is standard. Would you expect the owner to pay for your lab bill ? Doesn't make any sense.

 

Disability and Malpractice : Malpractice insurance is issued by the provincial dental governing body. You get this when you pay for your license to practise. And why would the owner of the practice pay for your disability ? You are an independent contractor.....the owner has nothing to do with it if you get disabled. Anyway, the $150/month is really insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

 

CE: You pay for your own CE. Again .....big deal. You can get all of your CE points without spending a dime if you choose to.

 

Collection: Most cases the payment of 35 or 40% is paid on collection. How can the owner pay you for something he hasn't gotten paid for ? Bottom line is....if you don't think you'll get paid for that crown or endo - don't do it. Simple.

 

Restrictive covenant: If you are signing the contract you know exactly what you are getting into. My advice.....don't sign anything. Work for a couple of years as an associate and then buy someone's practice. You won't have to worry about being "busy".......you'll have a full practice. Sure you'll be in significant debt but your income will soar. Plus you can sell the practice when you retire and the valie will only increase.

 

Remember.... if you are an associate you do not own the practice and you are entitled to nothing.. The owner doesn't owe you anything - the owner is not your mother. Don't expect him to pay for your insurance, CE, the gas in your car or anything else. All he has to pay you is 40% of your net production. If you want anything more - buy your own practice.

 

I have 2 associates now. There are no contracts and I don't prey on "naive grads." We hammered the details out verbally at the beginning and our work relationship is great. Practice is very busy and the associates are very busy and successful.

 

There is a lot of money to be made in dentistry. Do good work, be honest and caring and treat others how you would like to be treated and everything will fall into place.

 

Most importantly, don't listen to all of the pessemism about dentistry. The income potential in this field is pretty much as high as any other profession in this country.

 

All the best to you.

[stefanci]

Yup, I've shadowed 2 associates. Both of them take home 40% of their billings. So if they bill 800$ in a day. they are taking home $320 that day. Most of the other money will go toward paying overhead. The owner will not make a lot of money off the associate.. if any... Instead, the associate will provide the owner with patients who would have otherwise signed up with another dentist who could fill him/her into their schedule. Thus the patients come back. In addition to this, the associate makes money off the billings of the hygeniest. However, for the 6-month standard check up a dentist has to take a quick glance at the teeth to look for pathology, as the hygeniest can't do this. And, if the owner doesn't want to be in the office 6 days a week, but instead wants to work 4.. hire an associate to let the hygeinists work while you make bank off them...

 

320$/day means around $116,800 if you work 7 days a week at that rate...

 

take away taxes and you're left with...$81,760 (around)

[Dr.BadVibes]

Hi sweetheart........ur right, yes I am a new grad, which I think makes me better suited to discuss the associate contracts that have recently been offered to me and to my classmates in the past few months....

 

Regarding lab fees......this actually varies a lot....some contracts were offering that lab fees were paid for by the dentist and some dictated that an associate is responsible for their own lab fees.....

 

Regarding collection.....once again it varied a lot......some contracts stated that an associate is paid for only what is collected (another question to ask is whether an associate is responsible for their own collections....or is there a staff member that takes care of that)........some contracts stated that associates are paid for what they produce and that the office will be responsible for collections (obviously the percentage will be lower then....does it make sense to you now?)

 

Regarding CE, Disablity, Malpractice........a lot of contracts (especially with large dental mills) had offered these in their contracts as "incentives" to signing with them..........

 

in the grand scheme of things, ur right.....these things are pretty much insignificant.....but thats the point i was trying to make if you properly read my initial post....you have to look at the "grand scheme".........if people think they are gonna become an associate and make it big right away and if you're gonna come on here and tell them that its possible, you are doing a disservice to everyone.....

 

and associate contracts are not so cut and dry like you make it seem to be....perhaps for you it is and maybe you should explain ur approach to all the other dentists out there......but as a new grad, I can assure you that all associate contracts are different and have a lot of variation.....

 

 

P.S. Good Luck to your son's application.......I dont know why he is so weary on applying to dental school when his mom/dad is obviously doing very well

[Contach]

320$/day means around $116,800 if you work 7 days a week at that rate...

 

take away taxes and you're left with...$81,760 (around)

 

It was an example of a round about figure...

800$ a day is also 2 root canals that take a bit more than an hour each..

Or.. more conservatively... a normal 6 month follow up with a few xrays costs me about 150$ as a patient.. and I'm only there for 30 minutes. (Granted the hygeniest normally does this, but the Dentist is more than qualified to do this work.

i went in for 2 cavities, they cost 180 each. It took about an hour in total.

Now with these numbers, and numbers of your own. You decide what is an approximate billing total for a day.

[koft]

It was an example of a round about figure...

800$ a day is also 2 root canals that take a bit more than an hour each..

Or.. more conservatively... a normal 6 month follow up with a few xrays costs me about 150$ as a patient.. and I'm only there for 30 minutes. (Granted the hygeniest normally does this, but the Dentist is more than qualified to do this work.

i went in for 2 cavities, they cost 180 each. It took about an hour in total.

Now with these numbers, and numbers of your own. You decide what is an approximate billing total for a day.

 

Ultimately, it depends on your skills and patient based as a general dentist. You can do whatever you want, as long as you are competent in doing so. you can do impacted wisdom teeth extraction, retreat on molar root canal, gum grafting. Thus, the incomes varies from one to another, because each practices is different. Thus, no one can truly tell you what you can earn.

 

For example, my class, there will be colleague of mine that will never touch a molar root canal, because they are not comfortable doing so. while other will have no problem.

 

Ultimately, choose a career that you enjoy, earning is an issue, but ultimately, you have to do something that you enjoy or can tolerate for 20 - 30 years. You will earn a comfortable living, but you are not going to be living a luxurious life-style like stars.

 

Dental school can be a stressful experience, so are other professional schools, because of the increasing debt you accumulate during the 4 years, but trust me you will be able to pay them off and have spare change for some toys.

 

For those who are in dental school right now, worry about passing your didiatic, clinical and your board, unless you are going into final year, start looking for an associateship or post-grad training.

 

For those who are applying, there are plenty of info in this forum already about the grades and DAT score you need to get an interview. Of course, there will be slight changes every years, because the applicant pools are not the same.

 

For the high schoolers, HS grade is not indicative of your university GPA. Party is good, but in moderation, you need to study hard, but also need a social life.

 

What started out in this thread was a bit mis-leading, because the OP used a start up practice earning, once establish, you will always be in 6-figures take home after tax.

________

Life saber vaporizer

[xylem29]

Ultimately, it depends on your skills and patient based as a general dentist. You can do whatever you want, as long as you are competent in doing so. you can do impacted wisdom teeth extraction, retreat on molar root canal, gum grafting. Thus, the incomes varies from one to another, because each practices is different. Thus, no one can truly tell you what you can earn.

 

For example, my class, there will be colleague of mine that will never touch a molar root canal, because they are not comfortable doing so. while other will have no problem.

 

Ultimately, choose a career that you enjoy, earning is an issue, but ultimately, you have to do something that you enjoy or can tolerate for 20 - 30 years. You will earn a comfortable living, but you are not going to be living a luxurious life-style like stars.

 

Dental school can be a stressful experience, so are other professional schools, because of the increasing debt you accumulate during the 4 years, but trust me you will be able to pay them off and have spare change for some toys.

 

For those who are in dental school right now, worry about passing your didiatic, clinical and your board, unless you are going into final year, start looking for an associateship or post-grad training.

 

For those who are applying, there are plenty of info in this forum already about the grades and DAT score you need to get an interview. Of course, there will be slight changes every years, because the applicant pools are not the same.

 

For the high schoolers, HS grade is not indicative of your university GPA. Party is good, but in moderation, you need to study hard, but also need a social life.

 

What started out in this thread was a bit mis-leading, because the OP used a start up practice earning, once establish, you will always be in 6-figures take home after tax.

 

Thank-you!

[jayjaejai]

I was just wondering,,, how much does it usually cost to buy a practice / open up a new practice in Vancouver for example.

[EricCartman]

I was just wondering,,, how much does it usually cost to buy a practice / open up a new practice in Vancouver for example.

 

given the current real estate situation in vancouver, i'd say a million or more. probably cheaper in suburbs like delta, surrey, langely, maple ridge etc..but again, this is my guess.

[jayjaejai]

given the current real estate situation in vancouver, i'd say a million or more. probably cheaper in suburbs like delta, surrey, langely, maple ridge etc..but again, this is my guess.

 

more than a mil.

Hm,, I guess that's not too bad if it is a busy clinic and most of the patients will not change their dentist.

Or is it mil for a new practice??

[EricCartman]

more than a mil.

Hm,, I guess that's not too bad if it is a busy clinic and most of the patients will not change their dentist.

Or is it mil for a new practice??

 

my guess was for a new practice or opening from scratch.

 

the cost of an existing practice will vary a lot because it will depend on practice's yearly production and patient base.

[stefanci]

yeah, a million sounds fairly reasonable for Vancouver...

 

good luck trying getting a loan for that...

 

from scratch, its a bit cheaper, but keep in mind that as soon as you take money from the bank, or even if you had all the money, the overhead is still there regardless of whether you have patients or not.

[Contach]

yeah, a million sounds fairly reasonable for Vancouver...

 

good luck trying getting a loan for that...

 

from scratch, its a bit cheaper, but keep in mind that as soon as you take money from the bank, or even if you had all the money, the overhead is still there regardless of whether you have patients or not.

 

Stefanci. Were you not the one that started all the commotion by saying your mother is a dentist and earns only 50-90k a a year while working 60 hours a week?

 

On top of this, you never defended your initial allegations.. What sayeth you?

[stefanci]

Stefanci. Were you not the one that started all the commotion by saying your mother is a dentist and earns only 50-90k a a year while working 60 hours a week?

 

On top of this, you never defended your initial allegations.. What sayeth you?

 

yeah, 50-90k a year when she was starting up after taxes and stuff.

[xylem29]

yeah, 50-90k a year when she was starting up after taxes and stuff.

 

One would logically assume that the first year would be the lowest year and it could only continue to increase with time right? If there are any fluctuations from year to year, would it really be $40,000? That's a very large spread.

 

So how much did your mom net during her peak/prime earning years if you don't mind? And how long did it take your mom to move from "start up" to "established"?

[celeron_266]

90k after tax is actually not too bad...assuming 35% tax rate...she is earning about 138k gross

[samsung999]

yeah, 50-90k isn't that bad at all - especially when we're talking about start-up.

[stefanci]

One would logically assume that the first year would be the lowest year and it could only continue to increase with time right? If there are any fluctuations from year to year, would it really be $40,000? That's a very large spread.

 

So how much did your mom net during her peak/prime earning years if you don't mind? And how long did it take your mom to move from "start up" to "established"?

 

Pretty much it took around 10 years to get it fully "established", meaning around a 2500+ solid patient base (people come and go), in a growing community with few dentists around. But do expect a pretty good salary (meaning your 6 figures after a few years 2+)

 

The peak salary, I would say is around 550,000$ before taxes and expenses, and that accounts to about ~220,000$ after that, and ~130,000$ spending money that you see in your account...

 

Like any business, there's good and bad years, some years low $300,000 (even when starting - expect that after bout the first 2 years)...and sometimes random expenses like a new cavitron handpiece, or the broken A/C, or a new x-ray developer, or that "new" super expensive endodontic laser machines...etc.

[unknown user 7]

I think I keep repeating myself but haven't gotten a response.

 

Which is the probably the best place to practice? Urban/ Suburban or Rural?