Motp

[failtes112]

The officer at the recruitment centre told me the medical officers work from 7:30 to 3:30 monday to friday.

 

Man, getting kinda impatient with the MOTP result. They told me results would come out "shortly"

 

For the other two ppl in this thread who applied for motp how did you guys enjoy the interview?

My interview was an hour and 45 minutes long and the questions were twice as hard as my med school interview. Did you guys find that too?

[future_doc]

My interview was an hour and 45 minutes long and the questions were twice as hard as my med school interview. Did you guys find that too?

 

If there are no ethical constraints barring disclosure, what sort of questions were covered?

[medgoal]

You're not allowed to discuss the interview; which is pretty standard policy.

 

Mine was about 45 minutes.

[gibson303]

If funding isn't an issue, ie, you are okay with paying for med school via line of credit/government loans, then I really think it is better to enter the military once you've picked your residency.

 

That is the advice given by by my supervisor, who is a Major in the military (surgeon).

 

As a reservist, our unit constantly pushes us to follow the MOTP pathway. However, like I said, it makes sense sure if you want to be a family doctor and handle general duties as a medical officer. But if you are in it for the more interesting cases and so forth, I think the most unique perspective is given to surgeons.

 

And with respect to funding, even if you choose to enter the military once you finish med school, you get a signing bonus which is the equivalent to the compensation you would have received through MOTP. So your debt would be paid off.

 

For me personally, I'd rather wait it out. But I certainly see the advantages of going through MOTP. Especially since you'll probably become a more competent military officer by the time you finish med school versus someone just joining.

[future_doc]

And don't forget the pension benefits that are very consderable, especially if you join up sooner rather than later.

[w8kg6]

And with respect to funding, even if you choose to enter the military once you finish med school, you get a signing bonus which is the equivalent to the compensation you would have received through MOTP. So your debt would be paid off.

 

This isn't true. Assuming 15K tuition/year, average 48K per year salary while pre-residency, and the 40K signing bonus as well as the VERY generous resident salary (57K/year instead of 50Kish/year), MOTP costs the army about 310K. If you take the signing bonus on the last day of your residency and join up then, you only get 180K. There's about a 130K difference in there... and that's 130K while you're a student/resident, so it carries a lot more weight than the money you'd get once you already have your MD. These numbers also don't include any interest payments or anything like that.

 

SOURCE: http://www.forces.ca/media/_PDF/MOTP_en.pdf

 

And don't forget the pension benefits that are very consderable, especially if you join up sooner rather than later.

 

Yep, this is super important. Getting in with the military for med1 means you can retire 6 years before someone who got on in the last day of their residency.

[gibson303]

Sorry my bad, I forgot to consider that the salary is on TOP of the subsidization for tuition and so forth. With that being said though, again if the incentive to join MOTP is due to a lack of funding, which shouldn't be the case due to the 150k line of credit, the 180k signing bonus will certainly pay of a large portion if not all of your debt.

 

The only real loss I see is if you end up doing family medicine anyway and then you lose out on the 130k. However, if you decide to become something other than family, you save those 6 years (2 year family residency plus 4 year service) and often enter in with a higher pay-scale anyway.

 

Needless to say it all comes down to whether you want to do family or not.

[MP10]

But I certainly see the advantages of going through MOTP. Especially since you'll probably become a more competent military officer by the time you finish med school versus someone just joining.

 

Yep...completely agree. Joining when you're in med school means that you use your summers for military training, etc. I'm sure this will put you ahead of those who join much later when it comes around to promotions, etc. But I definitely am going to stick it out for first year of meds to see if family is right for me...there's no point committing to quickly unless you're sure. There is always enough money available from LOCs, OSAP, etc.

Don't forget that despite the 35k first year expected bugdet for first years at most schools, you'll only be paying back about 22k. Only 7k of about 14k of OSAP is repayable, you stand to get about 6k in grants if you qualify. That means using 15k only from your LOC...and this goes down if you live frugally. Of course if you want to have as little debt as possible, I'd join ASAP.

[future_doc]

1. *Signing bonus of $40,000 (although it could be as high as $180,000 if you apply later). (see Note below #4)

 

2. full tuition, instruments & texts paid

 

3. annual salary: While med student: $44,000-51,000. As Resident: $55,000-58,000.

 

4. In return, must commit to choosing family medicine through the CARMS match and serve for 4 years after completion of family med residency at salary of $134,000-164,000/year.

*NOTE: Should you choose not to receive the signing bonus and should you be subsidized for only 43 months or less, you will be obliged to serve for only 3 years.

 

4. Typically, after 4 years of service, promoted to Major at salary of $179,000-198,000. You likely will serve 6 mo. of this duty will be o/s Canada, and most medical officers serve in the former Yugoslavia (receiving tax-free payment of $1,500/mo). There is no Afghanistan.

 

Worst case scenario, you are posted at a base not near your home, but in beautiful Victoria, B.C.

 

5. Vacation is 4 weeks, after 4 years, it is 5 weeks, long serving receive 6 weeks

 

6. Other: given 5 days per year for professional training (so you can attend convention and then start your vacation!); free medical and dental care; officer’s rank as student; you will be posted to a base medical clinic in Canada

 

7. Maternity leave of 12 months at close to full pay

 

8. Excellent pension plan that starts immediately when enrolled into MOTP as student.

 

9. Entitled to of up to 5 years of specialty training at full pay. For each year of specialty training, you must continue with military for another 2 years, e.g., 5 more years of education at full pay = 10 more years of practice

 

10. Starting salary of specialist is $187,000 up to $258,000.

 

11. Pension: after service of 25 years or more, entitled to pension based upon 2% for each year of service (which includes years of study). Pension indexed against inflation once your age plus years of service = 85. Example, 25 years of service at current salary of $234,000 = pension of $117,000/yr, and if retire before reaching “85 above”, pension will be indexed at age 60. So, if you study for 5 years incl. residency and have 5 more years of study after your 4 years (at full pay), you need only practice medicine 15 years, you will have in total 25 years, and a pension of $117,000/yr (plus indexation) at about age 46 – when you are young enough to go into private practice (or, continue with CF at great salary and build up your eventual pension, e.g., at age 56, your pension will be $140,000/yr (plus future indexation).

 

12. There is every possibility that you may be in Afghanistan duing your obligatory service.

 

NOTE: In post no. 58 below, gibson stated:

 

Also keep in mind that the CF does a lot of internal recruiting. There are plenty of medics in the military who are med-school bound or are in med school, my unit alone has about 10 med students who are actively recruited every training night!

 

What OMSAS is does is out of full convenience, for cold hard facts, the gold standard is always to go and physically ask the institution. Trust me, the CF definitely needs GPs in Afghanistan. That being said, if you are a doctor, and you are sent to Afghanistan, you are more less going to be ok. You will be protected in the base, and therefore relatively safe. My supervisor who is a Major in the military told me that they were never allowed to leave the base. And the closest incident they had to being in danger was an attempted rocket attack.

 

It's the medics that are put in the most danger! They have to actually go out with the patrol...and who do you think the Taliban actively targets? The MEDICS! (No Geneva convention following here, so the Geneva convention card you get almost means nothing there). And honestly, I know several Medical Officers, and whenever they come back from Afghanistan, they have nothing but positive things to say, from their experiences, what they learned and what they contributed. So going to Afghanistan as a Medical Officer, may be a blessing in disguise.

 

Also with respect the "not getting full discolsure", lol welcome to the Military. Its a large GOVERNMENT organization that is full of policies, bureaucratic mumbo jumbo, and chain of command. Sometimes things take a little while to process. Example, sometimes you are notified literally the day before that you are being sent away for training. I suspect however the MOTP candidates are treated a little nicer though.

 

*Keep in mind as MOTP, you still have to go through BOOT CAMP. It's called BOTC.

 

And Katdb made this valued contribution (which I reduced) in post. no. 59 below:

 

I was just going to post that the Military is not going to say specifically where you might end up as they just never know where they will be in the coming years!

 

For those wishing to know how likely it is, I would go with 100% and make any decisions from there. That way your covered either way. I personally signed up in the hopes that I will be deployed, but I realize that this is not everyone's desire.

 

If you have any questions about the early years of MOTP (i.e. getting started in the program), feel free to PM me.

Good luck with your decisions!

 

13. 24 spaces available per year with MOTP – all have been filled in last 2 years, mainly from Maritimes & Quebec. The numbers in MOTP have tripled over the last 5 or 6 years.

 

14. By 2009, Military expects all forces family positions to be filled (150 positions). This compares with 130 filled in 2008 and 100 in 2003.

 

15. Total physician strength in the Canadian Forces currently stands at about 230 doctors in family medicine, specialist and administrative roles.

 

16. Specialty shortage, particularly in surgery and in areas like Afghanistan, are met by short term contracts with civilian doctors.

 

17. Recruitment is very active in specific groups such as senior medical students, medical residents, and licensed family and emergency physicians.

 

18. Retention after 4 years of service is up to 2/3 compared to only 30% 5 or 6 years ago.

 

19. Pension entitlement by way of immediate annuity is after 25 years of CF service (9,131 paid days). It is unclear whether as Regular Forces officer, whether you need to be age 60 or age 55 with 30 years pensionable service.

 

20. Deferred annuity may be an “annual allowance” – pension can start at age 50 on a reduced basis Alternatively, it is possible to request a lump sum equivalent to your pension benefit under age 50 (called a transfer value) transferred to a locked-in retirement savings vehicle.

 

21. Basic formula until age 65 or receipt of CCP or QPP is 2% x no. of years of pensionable service x av. Pay of the best 5 years of consecutive paid salary

 

22. Severance benefit is 7 days pay for each year of continuous service up to 30 years.

 

23. Death benefit while serving equal to twice annual salary.

[mildoc1]

12. You risk an Afghanistan type situation, only if you become a surgeon while with them!

 

How do you figure? Much of the information you posted above about deployment/postings is incorrect, future doc. It is in the CF's best interest to send their own, rather then contracted physicians. When I was in Kandahar, we had Canadian reg F GPs, ortho and general surgeons, anesthesiologists, internal medicine, psych, and oral surgeons. Specialists go to Kandahar every year for 6-12 weeks usually, GPs do 6 months. We left Yugoslavia years ago! If you don't want to 'risk an Afghanistan type situation' please don't join the military! As a serving member I really resent it when people take the perks, but don't pay the piper.

[future_doc]

12. You risk an Afghanistan type situation, only if you become a surgeon while with them!

 

How do you figure?

 

B/c surgeons are the requirement of the day in Afghanistan. They are not looking to remove family med physicians on bases (looking after the needs of the military and their families) to war situations. Perhaps in the future, the military may want to bring FM physisicans to Afghanistan to help the locals, but this is not occurring in the present (nor, I amigine on the foreseeable future, although anything is possible).

[mildoc1]

No. We have plenty of civ physicians who work on bases. We deploy GPs and physician assistants to Afghanistan every roto.

[future_doc]

No. We have plenty of civ physicians who work on bases. We deploy GPs and physician assistants to Afghanistan every roto.

 

hmm, most interesting, so you are telling me that those who join MOTP during their first 4 years don't just have a 6 mo. posting to places like the Caribbean doing humanitarian work, but these people actually go to Afghanistan? What are the figures if you know?

[mildoc1]

I don't think anyone has done 6 month humanitarian deployments. The Canadian Forces has DART (disaster assist response team) which has done deployments to Honduras and Sri Lanka and those were for approx. 40 days. When the CF Health Care Services deploys our mandate is typically to treat soldiers. I don't have exact numbers for medical personnel in Afghanistan, sorry! There was a good special on W5 a few months ago about the role 3 MMU (the hospital in Kandahar).

[future_doc]

I read that MOTP requires a 6 mo. deployment only, and usually to a safe place. I will try to check my source on this. I think I saw that program.

 

Source and further information from CF is in below post.

[future_doc]

It's the PDF entitled "The Canadian Forces Entry Plans for Physicvians and Medical Srudents" from National Defence. Under FAQ for med students,

Question 6: "Is it likely that I will be sent outside the country as part of a CF international operation?"

Answer: "It is highly likely that you will be deployed on a six-month tour during your period of obligatory service. Curently, medical officers are mostly being deployed in the former Yugoslavia. While on deployment, a medical officer receives a tax-free special allowance of appropximately $1,500 a month."

 

Question 7: "When I finish my medical training, where will I be posted?"

Answer: You will be posted to one of the CF base medical clinics located across Canada. ...Canadian baes are l isted and then it is added, "Geilenkirchen, Germany (Major's position), SHAPE, Belgium (Major's position), Washington DC, USA (Lieutenant-Colonel's position).

 

Question 8: "How often will I be posted?"

Answer: Once you have been posted to a base to begin your duty as a medical officer, it is very unlikely that you will be posted again during your initial four years of obligatory service.

 

So, on the basis that official Candian Forces documentation states this and they certainly have no intention of misleading candidates, I would seriously doubt there is the slightest probability *and probably no possibility) that MOTP signees in their first 4 years would be exposed to a war situation like Afghanistan. That is why I asked for further information regarding stats, as any such confirmation of such information, would turn on i8ts head what Canadian Forces is publishing.

[future_doc]

Another government document entitled, "The Canadian Forces Medical Officer Training Plan for Medical Students and Family Medicine Residents" states, in No. 6, that specifically deals with "Life as a family physician in the Canadian Forces", the following: (which is the reason I referenced "humanitarian" work by family physicians who join the MOTP program:

 

Canadian Forces physicians, or Medical Officers, are commissioned members of the Canadian Forces. Medical Officers do work that is very similar to that of civilian family physicians. Military medicine does, however, place a significant emphasis of some particular areas of primary health care, such as health promotion, ocupational health and sports medicine. Additonally, Medicial Officers receive specialized training and are expected to have advanced clinical skills and knowledge in a number of areas outside of primary health care, such as emergency/trauma medicine, and operational medicine - including advanced training in aviation, diving and submarine medicine. Medical officers work routinely in tertiary care civilian medical facilities in order to maintain and enhance their full clinical skill set. Leadership, confidence and the ability to innovate are the hallmarks of military physicians who are sometimes required to deliver care in austere conditions, such as with Humanitarian and Distaster Assistance relief efforts around the globe.

[w8kg6]

Keep in mind that that pdf is from 2006, and it's possible the info was out-dated then. Also, I've spoken a few times with the head MOTP recruiter (I forget the name, but he's a french guy who recruits for eastern Canada), and he said that an MOTP student can expect to be sent to Afghanistan. That being said, our mission is scheduled to end there in 2011, so we'll likely be out of there by the time we're done residency. Don't expect to be sent on vacation for 6 months though, that's not what happens.

[Meredith]

Future doc, whenever I look for military related documents on the internet, I always come across many that are out-of-date, so it is quite possible some of these documents you are quoting are no longer relevant. Certainly much of your information is correct, but there are definite inaccuracies. In case people are interested:

 

As mildoc1 has said, the CF definitely sends their own GPs to Afghanistan. I know 2 military family doctors who went to Afghanistan (one is there right now). I also know a civilian specialist, so like you said, that happens too. Also, the military doctors do not treat the families of CF members, just the members themselves (I think in the US, they may treat the families too, but not in Canada). Finally, the obligatory service for specialty training is 2 years per year of residency, up to 5 years maximum, not 10.

[future_doc]

If you don't want to 'risk an Afghanistan type situation' please don't join the military! As a serving member I really resent it when people take the perks, but don't pay the piper.

 

Personally, I am quite prepared to "pay the piper". Everything I was able to find, therefore, is out-of-date and yet, there is nothing available that is up-to-date except for your valued comments and those of the other poster who is aware of the real facts. Both CF and potential applicants would want the applicant to make an informed decision. Before contacting a recruiter, a potential applicant should be aware of all relevant factors and the rules of the game in the same way that OMSAS and each med school provide information to potential applicants in advance of actually applying.

 

It would appear that there is no one source (like the OMSAS pdf or updated med school websites) that potential applicants can study in advance of going to the next step, i.e., contacting a recruiter.

 

This is an important step for both any med student and the CF. I have made a good faith effort to determine all relevant facts of potential interest to both considering this path and yet, as well pointed out, my facts are out of date in material respects. Perhaps those in the military reading these posts would consider requesting CF in their own best interests and ours maintaining a one source "updated website" stating the facts accurately on a continuing basis, so that people like I do not make logical inferences and deductions from outdated information. We are all on the same side, really, and accurate information should ber made available in a professional manner by the CF.

 

I am most grateful for the clarifiction of facts by military posters.

[w8kg6]

It all becomes clear in the MOTP app process (full disclosure: I've never gone through the process). Part of the setup is you having a sitdown with one of the forces family docs and shadowing them for a day. You'll know what you're in for before you sign on the dotted line.

[future_doc]

It all becomes clear in the MOTP app process (full disclosure: I've never gone through the process). Part of the setup is you having a sitdown with one of the forces family docs and shadowing them for a day. You'll know what you're in for before you sign on the dotted line.

 

We have "full disclosure" before applying to med schools. We are entitled to no less from the CF before we meet them and in the same way. This is no big deal, or anything special, it should be normal procedure and there should be transparency. I am not blaming CF for not having as yet updated their information to the reality of today, b ut it is important that they do so.

[Katdb]

We have "full disclosure" before applying to med schools. We are entitled to no less from the CF before we meet them and in the same way. This is no big deal, or anything special, it should be normal procedure and there should be transparency. I am not blaming CF for not having as yet updated their information to the reality of today, b ut it is important that they do so.

 

 

 

On the forces website (http://www.forces.ca) under subsidized education plans is an up-to-date MOTP document. I'm not sure when it was published, but I do know that it was released after I applied so it is a maximum of 2 yrs old. I found this to be very straightforward. I'm not sure why you couldn't find it, but I hope it helps clear up some of your questions.

 

http://www.forces.ca/media/_PDF/MOTP_en.pdf

 

When I applied two years ago, the CF was very transparent at each step of the process. I almost wanted to get a button that said "yes I understand I could be sent to Afghanistan", but I understand that they do this so that you are completely aware of the commitment you are making.

 

Hope that helps!

[failtes112]

hey guys,

 

I'm well aware that I could be sent to Afghanistan and I'm pretty sure that the other people who applied for MOTP are aware of that as well.

 

We're ready to "pay the piper" but I think I speak for everyone else when I say that I would prefer not to go to a war-ridden country...Which is why I want to know the LIKELYHOOD of being sent to Khandahar.

 

Anybody know what the odds are that we'll get sent to Afghan or other locations where it would be safer?

[boodog]

future doc: the CF has full disclosure, I don't know what document you're reading but a 6 month tour of duty is a six month tour!! What more can that possibly mean. Currently the majority of forces are in Afghanistan, so uhhh where do you think you're going to go??

 

Seriously, before you critizize others, do some thinking. When the forces were in the former Yugoslavia, where did people go? Uhhh Yugoslavia, you guessed it.

 

failtes112: in the military you are not the boss, you do as you're told and that is the risk of joining. so you take your chances.