Should I just give up? What can I do?

[Battleonhim]

Hi guys, I am feel like a waste right now. I just finished up fourth year of university, life science in UWaterloo and realized that I really want to go to med school. I have always had the desire to go, but never really grasp the realization as I have now. The problem is that I have been getting really horrible grades (marks ranging from 2.3-3.0), but I have done a lot of extracurricular activities (Student Societies, Leaderships, intramural sports, martial art clubs, resident life, and other campus initiatives). I have also had a lot of personal problems (dealt with deaths, parental marital issues, and other stuff). I really feel like medicine is the one thing I want to do.

 

My current plan is to do a fifth year, but that means I will have to do really well. I am just wondering if that will even matter at the end of the day. I did pretty well on my MCAT, got 36q. Then maybe pursuing a master, the prof I am working for right now wouldn't mind taking me on. I am just wondering if I'll even have a chance applying after my master's program? or should I just try to apply for another undergrad and do two-three years and then apply again?

 

I'm sooo confused, and feel like a failure...

[iraqattaq]

I am going to say no giving up. With a decent MCAT score the States DO schools are an options (LECOM for example). Lecom needs a 2.7 GPA and a 24 MCAT. Also if you want to stay in Canada NOSM adds 0.2 to your GPA for finishing your masters. Western only takes your best two years (with conditional acceptances after one year) and Queens takes your last two...there are still tons of options for you, don't fret!

[w8kg6]

Keep in mind here that I'm one of the most blunt people on the forums, and my post won't be uplifting. Read on if you want.

 

Things aren't looking great for you at all. Even if you pull a 4.0 next year (which is very unlikely), you'll only pull your best 2 years GPA to 3.5, which is far too low for any school. It'll move your overall to a 3.2. Your MCAT is rock solid (so long as it's balanced), and your ECs are on the mark, but with your GPA, Canadian medicine isn't an option for you, and neither is an American MD program. Some of the less competitive DO schools may be alright with the GPA though. Also, only NOSM gives your GPA a boost from a master's, but even if you do a year where you get a 4.0 and then do a master's, you'll only have a GPA of 3.4, which is still too low.

 

Something you can do is take a second UG degree, but this is a waste of time if you don't expect to do any better. You've got to consider that possibility too, regardless of how hard you expect to work. As it stands, you haven't proven to anyone that you've got what it takes, since you've never scored a GPA higher than a 3.0. What makes you think things are going to change? Maybe it's time to look at other opportunities, even if it seems that an MD is all you're interested in.

 

I'm jaded by the process, but it's made me realistic. I've got a 10-10-11-S MCAT, 3.6 GPA, and ECs that at least match yours. I'm also going onto my third stab at med apps this coming year.

[Battleonhim]

Keep in mind here that I'm one of the most blunt people on the forums, and my post won't be uplifting. Read on if you want.

 

Things aren't looking great for you at all. Even if you pull a 4.0 next year (which is very unlikely), you'll only pull your best 2 years GPA to 3.5, which is far too low for any school. It'll move your overall to a 3.2. Your MCAT is rock solid (so long as it's balanced), and your ECs are on the mark, but with your GPA, Canadian medicine isn't an option for you, and neither is an American MD program. Some of the less competitive DO schools may be alright with the GPA though. Also, only NOSM gives your GPA a boost from a master's, but even if you do a year where you get a 4.0 and then do a master's, you'll only have a GPA of 3.4, which is still too low.

 

Something you can do is take a second UG degree, but this is a waste of time if you don't expect to do any better. You've got to consider that possibility too, regardless of how hard you expect to work. As it stands, you haven't proven to anyone that you've got what it takes, since you've never scored a GPA higher than a 3.0. What makes you think things are going to change? Maybe it's time to look at other opportunities, even if it seems that an MD is all you're interested in.

 

I'm jaded by the process, but it's made me realistic. I've got a 10-10-11-S MCAT, 3.6 GPA, and ECs that at least match yours. I'm also going onto my third stab at med apps this coming year.

 

w8kg6,

I am happy that you're being honest with me. This is why I posted onto this forum, because I really want honest feed backs. I admit that I have messed up, and I still want to do it. I'm considering to do another undergrad degree, but I did not have the resolution until recently. I just realized that everything is probably too late. I just would like a second chance, either with a fifth year and master, or with a second undergrad.

[rmorelan]

w8kg6,

I am happy that you're being honest with me. This is why I posted onto this forum, because I really want honest feed backs. I admit that I have messed up, and I still want to do it. I'm considering to do another undergrad degree, but I did not have the resolution until recently. I just realized that everything is probably too late. I just would like a second chance, either with a fifth year and master, or with a second undergrad.

 

Well with the second undergrad route it would certainly not be too late - but obviously you would need to work on getting your GPA up. Obviously that is your principle barrier - but your solid MCAT score certainly suggests you have the potential to do much better in your studies

 

Take a look in the non-trad forum - it is full of people that have gone the second degree route and were successful!

[w8kg6]

w8kg6,

I am happy that you're being honest with me. This is why I posted onto this forum, because I really want honest feed backs. I admit that I have messed up, and I still want to do it. I'm considering to do another undergrad degree, but I did not have the resolution until recently. I just realized that everything is probably too late. I just would like a second chance, either with a fifth year and master, or with a second undergrad.

 

Nah man, it's never too late (and that's coming from me, lol). I'm doing a second undergrad myself. Sure, you messed up on your first go (I kind of did as well, 3.5 best 2 years GPA, but I have IP status at Dal so there's a bit more leeway), but you can still take another crack at it.

 

I'd recommend a second undergrad over a master's/special year combo. Also, like I've said to other people, do the second undergrad in a professional program (engineering, nursing, teaching, VERY reputable business program) so that you've got a sound backup. No one would ever want to do a third UG degree, heh.

[iraqattaq]

It's true, you have to look at what you've accomplished. Did you get a 3.0 studying 30 hrs a week? If so then choose something else! If you haven't do you have the ability and the will power to study the amount of time it will take to get a 3.8-4.0, think about this honestly and if you're sure you can invest the time then do one more semester and score that high GPA. You only need one semester to get the confidence you might need.

 

Also if your rich have your parents donate a bunch of money to private american MD

[iraqattaq]

Nah man, it's never too late (and that's coming from me, lol). I'm doing a second undergrad myself. Sure, you messed up on your first go (I kind of did as well, 3.5 best 2 years GPA, but I have IP status at Dal so there's a bit more leeway), but you can still take another crack at it.

 

I'd recommend a second undergrad over a master's/special year combo. Also, like I've said to other people, do the second undergrad in a professional program (engineering, nursing, teaching, VERY reputable business program) so that you've got a sound backup. No one would ever want to do a third UG degree, heh.

 

Also try and apply for FSWEP during the summers of your second undergrad. It is an amazing backup and virtually guarantees employment with the federal government when you graduate! PM me if you have questions about this program. (Also there are divisions such as Old Age security and Disability claims which may look good on your EC's)

[future_doc]

Nah man, it's never too late (and that's coming from me, lol). I'm doing a second undergrad myself. Sure, you messed up on your first go (I kind of did as well, 3.5 best 2 years GPA, but I have IP status at Dal so there's a bit more leeway), but you can still take another crack at it.

 

Trying to join the dots are you suggesting that he/she consider taking up residence for example in N.S. and studying there so as to maximize his/her chances at the next go around in UG?

[xi88]

Trying to join the dots are you suggesting that he/she consider taking up residence for example in N.S. and studying there so as to maximize his/her chances at the next go around in UG?

 

Thats not entirely a bad idea

 

I'd go with the second undergrad option. It gives you a clean slate to work with, but you have to get a high GPA through so you wont be wasting another 4 years.

[Prothrombin]

As it stands for you right now, your grades are much too low to be competitive in Canada and even the US. HOWEVER, there are other options. you can TRY for a Masters and even a PhD, but UG marks are key. Its unfortunate because you're at the fork in the road. Do I try for a Masters/PhD and hope I get in? or do i redo UG? If Med school is your only career option, then I would suggest a second UG, but that will be very expensive and time consuming.

 

Remember, never give up because in the end it's your life and you choose your own destiny.

 

 

 

On a side note for Mr. Iraqi or anyone that can help me with this, can a US licensed DO practice medicine in Ontario? I remember seeing a website that listed some sort of restriction., but I do believe to theb est of my knowledge that all you'd need to do is pass the Canadian Medical exam and you can practice in Ontario.

[Rayven]

I believe a DO can practice unrestricted in Ontario and BC providing you pass the board exams. I can't recall but there are about two or three provinces that allow DOs to practice but not unrestricted.

[switcheroo]

Just thought I'd point out that if you take a second undergrad, you might need to re-write the MCAT, since your score might expire for some schools by the time you apply for med.

[Battleonhim]

I am thinking about doing a bachelor in nursing, but. the programs I'm looking at is a two year programs (a post university program)...how will that work out in terms of applying for school? Feels like this post should be posted in the non-traditional section.

[WaveSense]

What about foreign med schools (carribean etc)... They are becoming more and more legit these days.

[KennethToronto]

What about foreign med schools (carribean etc)... They are becoming more and more legit these days.

 

They aren't anymore legit than they were 10 years ago.

 

What do you base "legitimacy" on?

[Microbiodude]

hmmm...which MSc or PhD programs accept you with a GPA ranging from 2.3-3.0. Most of the lower ones I checked said minimum B+ which is 3.3ish? The others all said A- (i.e. U of T)....which is like 3.7ish? Unless of course you had publications then that might negate the GPA completely.

[Slim Charles]

I'd consider doing a second undergrad if medicine is what you really want because that's a superb MCAT score and you'd be a strong candidate for schools that only consider your two best years. Don't be discouraged by the fact that you might be a little older when you get accepted. Two or three years might seem like a huge deal at 23 but it's really not when you consider you could still have a 30 year career as a doctor if you get in at 30.

 

You have to be honest with yourself. That score indicates that you can get the grades you need if you have the discipline.

[Prothrombin]

They aren't anymore legit than they were 10 years ago.

 

What do you base "legitimacy" on?

 

They're legitimate because they're still a viable option for people looking at an alternative to becoming an MD. I don't think 10 years ago you could get a residency placement in the US at ALL if you were a Canadian citizen. Nowaways its not very difficult for a CDN graduate of a Carib med school to get a residency spot in the US. While it won't be a competitive spot, you will more than likely find one in non competitive programs like FM. Of course you still need to get your visa to obtain residency, which mean you'd need to write the USMLE, but if you have the drive you should pass.

[Battleonhim]

hmmm...which MSc or PhD programs accept you with a GPA ranging from 2.3-3.0. Most of the lower ones I checked said minimum B+ which is 3.3ish? The others all said A- (i.e. U of T)....which is like 3.7ish? Unless of course you had publications then that might negate the GPA completely.

 

I have been working with a professor for almost two years in UWaterloo, and almost a publication *keep my fingers crossed*. He pretty much told me the only condition will be getting my grade up to a 3.3ish or higher in this coming year (my special year), then I should be able to secure a spot in his lab. I don't know, I've known a lot of people who have been accepted to MSc because of devotion they had for research during undergrad, and they weighted a bit less on the grade if they showed results with awesome recommendations. Another thing is that, most grad school only look at your last two years.

 

I'm not even sure if it's what I want to do...I really want to get into med, and I wish that I was more hardcore about it earlier (like four years ago). Just wish that I realize what I want in my life earlier, instead of just getting by undergrad like it's a game. *sigh* Everything's 20/20 in hindsight I guess. I studied very hard for my MCAT (Studied for a long time, and kept a good routine) and it paid off. I know that I if I study like that for my classes, I know I will be able to get good grade. ...

 

The problem now is just where to go from now. Most schools have different rules in terms of a second undergrad degree. They also have a different sets of criteria for the second degree.

[WaveSense]

They aren't anymore legit than they were 10 years ago.

 

What do you base "legitimacy" on?

 

1) van Zanten M, Boulet J R. Medical education in the Caribbean: variability in medical school programs and performance of students. Academic Medicine. 2008;83: s33-s36.

 

2) van Zanen M, Parkins LM, Karle H, et al. Accreditation of undergraduate medical education in the Caribbean: report on the Caribbean accreditation authority for education in medicine and other health professions. Academic Medicine. 2009;84: 771-775.

 

I dunno... if you can't get into Canada, it is a viable alternative. You're obviously going to be facing quite a few hurdles, but most of those are based on stigma it seems rather than quality of education. I've known some incredibly dumb people who make me cringe when I think of them as doctors who have graduated from the caribbean but I also know people who are really intelligent but just haven't planned their lives as well who are forced to go there and I think would make excellent physicians in the future (i hope!).

 

Also, you can look into transffering out of the caribbean schools after first year. Some people have done it but it is a huge uphill battle. There was a blog of some guy who went through the process. If I remember correctly, he actually took a whole week off just to go through all the red tape and paper work that was involved in applying. Some schools don't even advertise that they take transfer students and so he was left phoning each one!

[Prothrombin]

1) van Zanten M, Boulet J R. Medical education in the Caribbean: variability in medical school programs and performance of students. Academic Medicine. 2008;83: s33-s36.

 

2) van Zanen M, Parkins LM, Karle H, et al. Accreditation of undergraduate medical education in the Caribbean: report on the Caribbean accreditation authority for education in medicine and other health professions. Academic Medicine. 2009;84: 771-775.

 

I dunno... if you can't get into Canada, it is a viable alternative. You're obviously going to be facing quite a few hurdles, but most of those are based on stigma it seems rather than quality of education. I've known some incredibly dumb people who make me cringe when I think of them as doctors who have graduated from the caribbean but I also know people who are really intelligent but just haven't planned their lives as well who are forced to go there and I think would make excellent physicians in the future (i hope!).

 

Also, you can look into transffering out of the caribbean schools after first year. Some people have done it but it is a huge uphill battle. There was a blog of some guy who went through the process. If I remember correctly, he actually took a whole week off just to go through all the red tape and paper work that was involved in applying. Some schools don't even advertise that they take transfer students and so he was left phoning each one!

 

Yeah, like i said, Caribbean med schools are an alternative, and can allow you to practice in Canada given you get residency in the US, which is not al that difficult if you study. The blog you are talking about is rumorsweretrue.wordpress.com, however the guy that transferred was US Citizen. As a Canadian it is pretty much impossible to "transfer" to a US school from the Carib.

[iraqattaq]

On a side note for Mr. Iraqi or anyone that can help me with this, can a US licensed DO practice medicine in Ontario? I remember seeing a website that listed some sort of restriction., but I do believe to theb est of my knowledge that all you'd need to do is pass the Canadian Medical exam and you can practice in Ontario.

 

From what I was told (By MSUCOM) you can practice in Canada in any specialty. They didn't break it down by province but as long as there are some provinces and medicine is your only career you should look into it. LECOM is the easiest to get into from what I know. A 2.7 is required and successful applicants have at least a 3.2 and a 24 (no writing sample needed). I think tuoro only needs a 3.1

 

http://www.aacom.org/Pages/default.aspx

http://www.touro.edu/med/

http://www.lecom.edu/prospective.php

[iraqattaq]

Yeah, like i said, Caribbean med schools are an alternative, and can allow you to practice in Canada given you get residency in the US, which is not al that difficult if you study. The blog you are talking about is rumorsweretrue.wordpress.com, however the guy that transferred was US Citizen. As a Canadian it is pretty much impossible to "transfer" to a US school from the Carib.

 

How can anyone afford the Caribbean?

With the states you can probably get a bank loan and some OSAP but the caribbean might be more difficult to get funding.

[Prothrombin]

From what I was told (By MSUCOM) you can practice in Canada in any specialty. They didn't break it down by province but as long as there are some provinces and medicine is your only career you should look into it. LECOM is the easiest to get into from what I know. A 2.7 is required and successful applicants have at least a 3.2 and a 24 (no writing sample needed). I think tuoro only needs a 3.1

 

http://www.aacom.org/Pages/default.aspx

http://www.touro.edu/med/

http://www.lecom.edu/prospective.php

 

I was looking at Touro today. I don't think they accept Canadian applicants though, and even if they do they're looking for individuals who come from the Bronx/Harlem and who are willing to continue their practice in the less fortunate communities of NYC.