class size :(

[future_doc]

i hear you. I would just like to know what my personal expectation is and that depends on the seat number. I guess I'll be going into this one totally blind on that front.

 

It's a work in progress and going down to the wire!

[jtdang]

I emailed Doug Horner a couple weeks ago and I finally got a reply. Sounds like good news to me as it says that the schools haven't sent in any proposals for seat reductions.

 

Thank you for your recent e-mail regarding funding to student spaces at Alberta’s medical schools. I am always pleased to hear from Albertans on an issue as important to the future of our province as education.

 

A post-secondary education remains one of the best investments a student or government can make. The Government of Alberta recognizes that our post-secondary institutions are key players in creating an economy that is more diversified and based on Albertans’ knowledge and skills. Budget 2010 provides Advanced Education and Technology (AET) with over $3.2 billion this year, including more than $2 billion in operating grants to Alberta’s post-secondary institutions. This will enable institutions to continue to deliver high-quality, accessible post-secondary learning and build Alberta’s knowledge-based economy. Our institutions will have the funds and flexibility they require to respond to the emerging needs of their students, communities, and our economy. Budget 2010 consolidates all AET operational funding to individual institutions in a Campus Alberta Grant. Currently, I am working with all the institutions to finalize their overall operational grant amounts, which will be released this month.

 

I can assure you that I have not made any specific decisions with respect to funding or space allocations for specific programs, including medicine. Generally, any proposals from public post-secondary institutions to establish, extend, expand, reduce, suspend, terminate, or transfer programs of study need to be forwarded to me by the institution for consideration. To date, I have not received any proposals from any institution regarding changes to medical school programs.

 

In addition, any significant change to a program is part of the ongoing dialogue that needs to occur with institutions with respect to overall learner and labour market demand and institution capacity. Guiding this conversation is the Alberta Access Planning Framework and the Institution Access Plans (IAP). These plans continue to identify healthcare as one of the key priority areas for the province in the coming years.

 

Again, thank you for your e-mail and for raising your concerns with me.

 

Doug Horner

Deputy Premier and

Minister of Advanced Education and Technology

 

[future_doc]

Nice, the major boys in govt and med schools are playing head games with each other and students are just pawns in the game. It seems to be playing out in favour of the students!

 

I await the read of our resident expert, who is also a stakeholder, none other than sv3!

[sv3]

I emailed Doug Horner a couple weeks ago and I finally got a reply. Sounds like good news to me as it says that the schools haven't sent in any proposals for seat reductions.

 

I'm not really buying it but that's just my take. Although he hasn't received a formal proposal from the uni's requesting seat cuts, they definitely are talking about it and are currently in negotiations/discussions. I think what's going on is that the uni's are saying "if we don't get more money, we'll have to cut," and if they don't end up getting the money, then they will submit that proposal officially. That's just my guess. The uni's are also playing games and they don't have guts (yet anyway) to request a formal cut, b/c if for some reason it got granted, they'd be screwed - they don't want to cut seats, they rather get the money and have more seats. It's a last resort but considering how late it is, it is a real option. I could care less how this gets resolved, as long as the seat numbers don't change.

 

Lol at Fd - no expert here, just a ticked off premed.

[knucklehead]

I'm not really buying it but that's just my take. Although he hasn't received a formal proposal from the uni's requesting seat cuts, they definitely are talking about it and are currently in negotiations/discussions. I think what's going on is that the uni's are saying "if we don't get more money, we'll have to cut," and if they don't end up getting the money, then they will submit that proposal officially. That's just my guess. The uni's are also playing games and they don't have guts (yet anyway) to request a formal cut, b/c if for some reason it got granted, they'd be screwed - they don't want to cut seats, they rather get the money and have more seats. It's a last resort but considering how late it is, it is a real option. I could care less how this gets resolved, as long as the seat numbers don't change.

 

Lol at Fd - no expert here, just a ticked off premed.

 

Considering no official cuts will be made until May 14th, this is really no news at all. Besides, taking good news from politician is a dangerous thing. Though I stay optimistic, I just want to warn everyone else that their optimism should be guarded.

[future_doc]

yes, guarded optimism is appropriate ..... and the med schools themselves don't know how it is going to play out no matter what their devious minds think......better than the alternative at this time b/c hope remains

[itimebomb2]

a bit over 2 weeks till d-day... its getting harder to believe that a decision hasn't been made yet about this...

[sv3]

a bit over 2 weeks till d-day... its getting harder to believe that a decision hasn't been made yet about this...

 

tell me about it. The longer it goes the worse I feel b/c I keep thinking if there was good news it would be shared immediately. It is pretty ridiculous though considering we're almost into May!

[skp1187]

tell me about it. The longer it goes the worse I feel b/c I keep thinking if there was good news it would be shared immediately. It is pretty ridiculous though considering we're almost into May!

 

what i think is going to happen is the schools will hand out acceptances to around 140 students on may 14th. The # of students on waitlist will be much larger than previous years in case the number of seats do increase if the gov and univ can come to agreement.

[sv3]

what i think is going to happen is the schools will hand out acceptances to around 140 students on may 14th. The # of students on waitlist will be much larger than previous years in case the number of seats do increase if the gov and univ can come to agreement.

 

that's a nightmarish scenario for everyone - for it to drag on like that (but it is a possiblity no doubt). I've heard the university has told the govt they need to know by May 14th but i doubt the govt is going to care about that deadline. Especially at UC where the year starts so early, i can't see this being pulled off. Still, it would be better than 140 and nothing. These are two huge insitutions (schools and govt) and it's embarassing for them to not be able to get their **** together. And like I've said before, what are we talking about here? $20-30 million? It's nothing when it comes to the overall budget. Just greed and egos out of control.

[chuck62]

I have unfourtunatley recently heard that it is most likely that very scenario that may play out. Sending out only an initial 140 spots on may 14th and holding out on the others untill the govnt agrees to fund more. If they receive more money, they will ONLY THEN increase the class size...and that could possibly run into july etc.

This is, at least, what I've heard for the U of A. I am not sure for the U of C....and i know that this goes somewhat against a recent post that I put on the U of A forum, but that is because this is the more recent info that I've heard. sigh. not excellent news.

[skp1187]

doesn't Horner though have to agree to a reduction in class size. Seats are manadated by the government. If government says you have to fund 180 seats, then the univ has to

[Charms]

doesn't Horner though have to agree to a reduction in class size. Seats are manadated by the government. If government says you have to fund 180 seats, then the univ has to

 

If I'm understanding this correctly, that's a raw deal for schools - the government mandates the number of seats but isn't required to subsidize said number of seats.

[sv3]

I have unfourtunatley recently heard that it is most likely that very scenario that may play out. Sending out only an initial 140 spots on may 14th and holding out on the others untill the govnt agrees to fund more. If they receive more money, they will ONLY THEN increase the class size...and that could possibly run into july etc.

This is, at least, what I've heard for the U of A. I am not sure for the U of C....and i know that this goes somewhat against a recent post that I put on the U of A forum, but that is because this is the more recent info that I've heard. sigh. not excellent news.

 

reliable source?

[skp1187]

If I'm understanding this correctly, that's a raw deal for schools - the government mandates the number of seats but isn't required to subsidize said number of seats.

 

apparently the government did give enough money fund close to 180 seats. The universities instead mismanaged the money and are now threatening to cut seats as leverage to obtain more money.

 

I dono its all messed up, none of us know wtf is going to happen. It doesn't seem fair though that we as pre-meds are often abandoned.

[sv3]

apparently the government did give enough money fund close to 180 seats. The universities instead mismanaged the money and are now threatening to cut seats as leverage to obtain more money.

 

I dono its all messed up, none of us know wtf is going to happen. It doesn't seem fair though that we as pre-meds are often abandoned.

 

This is at least somewhat true, if not entirely true. The universities lost money on investments and also are having to play catch up on pension funding. I know at UA this put them in a $17M hole. The unis also have discretion where to cut. This is going to need compromise from both parties and from what i've heard, the government seems to be more willing than the universities. From the get-go, the universities were pro-active in spreading the word that the govt under-funded them, and I'm not sure this is really the case. I'm not saying its entirely their fault, but they are definetly not stepping up to the plate from what I've heard. Take it for what's worth.

 

But if seats are cut, i just don't see more being added after May 14th. I think its too much of an administrative hassle and no one is going to bend over backwards to increase seats - if they did, it would have been settled by now. Time is definitely running out. They already have the rankings done and are just waiting to find out how many acceptances are to be sent out.

[chuck62]

reliable source?

 

yes, it is an very reliable source.

 

What I've heard is that last year, the govnt had said they'd pay for 180 seats, but only gave 140 seats worth of money by may 15th and then never coughed up the rest of it afterwords, so the univerisity was stuck with a loss even last year.

ie, this year, they will not give out more than 140 seats untill they receive the money in hand.

but if they do get it before august, then they will be sending out more offers.

 

this is all in regards to U of A, though, I must add. Whether U of C is the same, who knows...

[sv3]

yes, it is an very reliable source.

 

What I've heard is that last year, the govnt had said they'd pay for 180 seats, but only gave 140 seats worth of money by may 15th and then never coughed up the rest of it afterwords, so the univerisity was stuck with a loss even last year.

ie, this year, they will not give out more than 140 seats untill they receive the money in hand.

but if they do get it before august, then they will be sending out more offers.

 

this is all in regards to U of A, though, I must add. Whether U of C is the same, who knows...

 

I'd say that's pretty bad news. Damn. If the government never gave the school funding for 180 seats, then 180 isn't a real precedent right? Looks like 140 is the real precedent and last year was indeed a fluke.

 

Something tells me your source is within the school though......that count skew this perspective (just a hunch on my part)

[sv3]

I'd say that's pretty bad news. Damn. If the government never gave the school funding for 180 seats, then 180 isn't a real precedent right? Looks like 140 is the real precedent and last year was indeed a fluke.

 

Something tells me your source is within the school though......that count skew this perspective (just a hunch on my part)

 

PS - does the 140 include the rural and aboriginal over-quota seats? or does it become 156?

[chuck62]

I am not sure.

The only thing i've heard related to that is that they will probably be keeping the 15% oop ratio, whatever the total number of seats...

[fritzer]

i would also like to know about the rural and aboriginal over quota spots in this 140 number

 

i would assume these spots are seperatley funded? can't see them attempting to cut rural/aboriginal spots...

 

anyone have any more info?

[LostLamb]

I inquired about the overquota spots and there is no knowledge at the Administration level as to what is happening with the spots.

[sv3]

why would there be? They've still got 14 days to figure things out.....plenty of time right?

[knucklehead]

I inquired about the overquota spots and there is no knowledge at the Administration level as to what is happening with the spots.

 

did they acknowledge the 140 number or did they just give the generic "we don't know what is going on" answer?

[LostLamb]

did they acknowledge the 140 number or did they just give the generic "we don't know what is going on" answer?

 

generic answer...