Did York end up going through with its Med School plans?

[nosuperman]

I remember back in the day (circa 2008) there was talk of York submitting a proposal for a medical school with expectations that they could get it running pretty quickly (5-ish years?).

 

I'm curious if anything ever came of that? Searching for "York Medical School" or any variant on these forums, the York site and even Google hasn't resulted in anything recent...

 

For most of us this probably won't affect a whole lot (maybe more residencies later?) but for the fresh-out-of-highschool crowd it might be relevant. In either case I'm curious.

 

Anyone know what the deal is?

[Greyhound]

even for the fresh out of high schoolers, it probably won't have any effect. I believe York is still planning on building a med school but there are still so many things that need to be done that by the time it'll be done we'd all either be in med already or decided to go down another career path lol, I don't think it will be done in 5 years

[shannn]

Interesting:

 

http://www.yorku.ca/gro/Medical%20Post%20article%20on%20York.pdf

 

According to that document, it said it should have heard from the gov't by now (but they obviously did not, or got rejected and are keeping it hush)

 

http://www.yorku.ca/yfile/archive/index.asp?Article=12351

 

This one says the medical school application process will take a while

 

---

 

Coming from York, I must say that York has to do A LOT of things before it can even consider creating a medical school:

-get a real anatomy lab with real cadavers (not cats)

-they will probably have to create another York campus just for the medical school and join it to a hospital near by (one in the Vaughn area I suspect, since every Toronto hospital/rehab centre in Toronto is affiliated with U of T)

-attract faculty - I know that one of the best ortho surgeons in Canada is willing to do some stuff with York, and a couple of doctors at the UHN are professors at York, so this shouldn't be too bad as long as they keep attracting real good staff

-attract some basic scientists - they need to really attract some great basic scientists to work with the medical faculty to establish some strong research

 

It will take a long time

[nosuperman]

Interesting:

 

http://www.yorku.ca/gro/Medical%20Post%20article%20on%20York.pdf

 

According to that document, it said it should have heard from the gov't by now (but they obviously did not, or got rejected and are keeping it hush)

 

 

This is why I was curious. I watched the (UWO) Windsor Med School transition from idea, to parking lot, to full fledged building over quite a number of years and there was always tons of press about it. We knew their plans and (ever-changing) schedule the whole time.

 

If York had submitted a proposal they'd at least have to have a building site and the hospital details worked out by now... its just weird that we hear hardly anything about it.

[thatonekid]

I personally know one of the doctors who's heading the push for York's med school and he says that the paperwork and stuff is in, but the provincial government is kicking the tires due to the amount of opposition from others (mainly UofT). Plus, since the number of provincial spots recently increased, it puts York further back in the line, since the govenment has to accumulate seats (funds) for a new school.

 

Point is, it's still being worked on, but the progress is very disappointing to the planners.

[nosuperman]

I personally know one of the doctors who's heading the push for York's med school and he says that the paperwork and stuff is in, but the provincial government is kicking the tires due to the amount of opposition from others (mainly UofT). Plus, since the number of provincial spots recently increased, it puts York further back in the line, since the govenment has to accumulate seats (funds) for a new school.

 

Point is, it's still being worked on, but the progress is very disappointing to the planners.

 

Ah, lame, well that explains it. Thanks for the insight, thatonekid.

[estairella]

York should just become a DME site of UofT (like the agreement UNBC and UVic have with UBC).

 

It seriously makes little sense to have two different medical schools in the same city.

 

Without a working association with most Toronto hospitals, York medical students would not get the same opportunities either. And let's face it, it's freaking York, it's gonna be the DO of Canadian medical schools.

[Morzan]

And let's face it, it's freaking York, it's gonna be the DO of Canadian medical schools.

 

Is you dissin' my Yorkz?

[ygella]

I think for the first few years admission to York's med school will be very competitive, since everyone (including those who think they have no chance at other med schools) are going to apply. Admissions will be pouring...

[naspec]

Disclaimer: the following is pure speculation on my part, I'm not "plugged in" to any aspect of the health care/university/medical education system nor do I claim any special expertise in this area.

 

But anyway, this York medical school idea could be a good thing for Toronto; plenty of big American cities (New York, Boston) have multiple medical schools in their metropolitan areas. In fact, at one time Toronto even had three coexisting medical schools: Trinity, Women's College, and the Toronto School of Medicine (not affiliated with the University of Toronto, until they were later absorbed), if I recall correctly. This could be an opportunity for existing community hospitals in the suburbs and 905 region to take on some teaching/research roles, if they so desire. As long as they open up more residency spots as well, or else we will only have more 4th years going unmatched by CaRMS. For all those GTA applicants who complain that they don't get local/"in-province" status anywhere, this could be their chance.

 

I'm not discouraged that it might take many years (or decades, by the looks of it) before this becomes reality. A new medical school will provide lots of employment/teaching opportunities for established doctors (i.e. us, in a few years). Maybe due to personal/family reasons, some people would consider being in the GTA and serving the community there to be more important factors for residency/fellowship/setting up a practice than necessarily being affiliated with a prestigious research institution (U of T, UHN, etc). This would give us two "streams" of competition for those residency spots, allowing applicants with either of the aforementioned motivations to get what they want.

 

Besides, there's no saying that this has to be a "second-class" medical school. York itself is capable of supporting some decent academic programs, like the Schulich School of Business and their bilingual programs at Glendon College. Hm... Glendon College is really close to Sunnybrook. I wonder if U of T is concerned that York might use that to "horn in" on their territory? Anyway, I like to look at the example of McMaster founding their medical school in the '60s; from the outset they had the goal of becoming a world-class institution despite, amongst other challenges, raging controversy with the town about where their Health Sciences complex would go, and opposition from local doctors who were concerned about what it would mean for their own practices. 40 years later, they seem to be well-established and doing quite well for themselves.

 

Anyway, thanks for posting this thread, "nosuperman". Let us know if anything new comes of this.

[shannn]

Disclaimer, this is also speculation on my part:

 

The reason why U of T does NOT want York to have a medical school is because it wants all that research at EVERY Toronto hospital to remain U of T affiliated and U of T affiliated alone (i.e. BIG $$$ for U of T in terms of receiving funding from the government, greater reputation for U of T)

 

Universities, at the end of the day, are all corporations, and U of T wants to ensure that it has a monopoly on research that goes on in the healthcare places around Toronto

 

If York takes a bite out of U of T's pockets by affiliating with some hospitals, U of T will be pissed. I'm sure U of T will continue to lobby that more spots should open up at U of T instead of investing money to build a new school for York

 

York will have a huge obstacle in trying to get a medical school in Toronto by affiliating with any Toronto hospitals (I am assuming that U of T may threaten to cut ties with hospitals that affiliate themselves with York if they are petty enough)

 

If anything, I suspect York will affiliate itself with hospitals in the Vaughn/York Region area hospitals, and possible build a medical school at one of those hospitals (kind of how the Law faculty is downtown Toronto away from the main campus)

[Brainz]

well there's only like 2 hospitals in vaughan and they ain't that big. they're definitely not sufficient to be incorporated for a med school. plus there's like a speck of research done there, if any at all.

 

Even the city page lists like 8 other hospitals

http://www.city.vaughan.on.ca/health/hospitals.cfm

 

UofT is affiliated with sooo many hospitals... they can't give some up?

[shannn]

well there's only like 2 hospitals in vaughan and they ain't that big. they're definitely not sufficient to be incorporated for a med school. plus there's like a speck of research done there, if any at all.

 

Even the city page lists like 8 other hospitals

http://www.city.vaughan.on.ca/health/hospitals.cfm

 

UofT is affiliated with sooo many hospitals... they can't give some up?

 

Because (IMO), if U of T gives up one hospital, it's just a matter of time before others follow suit. Plus, U of T is not just affiliated with a lot of hospitals, they are affiliated with every Toronto hospital and rehab centre

 

And that one hospital that U of T gives up would be York's hub for research, which would give that hospital no incentive to do anything for U of T

 

U of T has too much to lose. I'm sure they'd open a new campus in Scarborough for med school before York gets a medical school

[naspec]

...

 

York will have a huge obstacle in trying to get a medical school in Toronto by affiliating with any Toronto hospitals (I am assuming that U of T may threaten to cut ties with hospitals that affiliate themselves with York if they are petty enough)

 

If anything, I suspect York will affiliate itself with hospitals in the Vaughn/York Region area hospitals, and possible build a medical school at one of those hospitals (kind of how the Law faculty is downtown Toronto away from the main campus)

 

That's exactly what I was thinking. On the other hand, there are even some community hospitals in Toronto proper that I can think of, who I doubt would have much affiliation with U of T (except maybe nominally), and who could benefit significantly from a close relationship with a medical school that has more of an emphasis on serving the community. I don't know if U of T would want to expand its undergraduate class beyond its current 250, since there might be a bit of a "prestige" factor in having a smaller rather than larger class. As its stature as a world-class research institution grows, it might benefit everyone if U of T focuses on what it's good at, leaving the less "glamorous" but equally important area of serving local healthcare needs to this potential new medical school.

 

well there's only like 2 hospitals in vaughan and they ain't that big. they're definitely not sufficient to be incorporated for a med school. plus there's like a speck of research done there, if any at all.

 

Don't forget Richmond Hill (York Central) and Markham (Markham-Stouffville).

[A-Stark]

I don't think hospitals would be unable to affiliate with more than one institution. The research question is really only relevant in one respect - money, and where it's going to come from. UofT can have whatever turf-protection motivations it wants, but it really doesn't matter unless the provincial government is prepared to fund the spaces - undergrad *and* postgrad.

[estairella]

But anyway, this York medical school idea could be a good thing for Toronto; plenty of big American cities (New York, Boston) have multiple medical schools in their metropolitan areas. In fact, at one time Toronto even had three coexisting medical schools: Trinity, Women's College, and the Toronto School of Medicine (not affiliated with the University of Toronto, until they were later absorbed), if I recall correctly.

 

You can't compare Canadian medical schools to privately funded American medical schools (Columbia, Mount Sinai and Boston are ALL private i.e. they are making money on their own). If York was charging $50,000 tuition a year, Toronto wouldn't be able to do anything about it, but because York is asking for money from the same government that UofT wants money from, it's a completely different matter. More public organizations -> less resources for each organization.

 

Also, I find your historical example a poor one at best. You're saying that

- there USED to be multiple medical schools in Toronto

- these medical schools disappeared or were merged into UofT medical school (presumably because this was the ideal solution)

- THEREFORE it makes sense to have multiple medical schools again?

 

Sorry, the logic would suggest the exact opposite.

 

I don't know if U of T would want to expand its undergraduate class beyond its current 250, since there might be a bit of a "prestige" factor in having a smaller rather than larger class. As its stature as a world-class research institution grows, it might benefit everyone if U of T focuses on what it's good at, leaving the less "glamorous" but equally important area of serving local healthcare needs to this potential new medical school.

 

UofT has one of the largest undergraduate medical classes in Canada. So that boat sailed about 100 students ago.

 

And I really fail to see your logic in that second point here. Do you know how much research UofT has done on inner city health, and 'local healthcare needs' like diabetes screening, and so on? And as a student based in St. Michael's Hospital, I find that comment particularly offensive.

 

If anything, world-class research institutions should be MORE focused on local healthcare, not less. Yes, UofT does some excellent research that doesn't apply to Toronto as well, but it's not an either-or situation. We're all still MDs here; I think in my class, only about 10% would say their interest in research is a priority over their interest in serving the community.

[naspec]

You can't compare Canadian medical schools to privately funded American medical schools (Columbia, Mount Sinai and Boston are ALL private i.e. they are making money on their own). If York was charging $50,000 tuition a year, Toronto wouldn't be able to do anything about it, but because York is asking for money from the same government that UofT wants money from, it's a completely different matter. More public organizations -> less resources for each organization.

 

Also, I find your historical example a poor one at best. You're saying that

- there USED to be multiple medical schools in Toronto

- these medical schools disappeared or were merged into UofT medical school (presumably because this was the ideal solution)

- THEREFORE it makes sense to have multiple medical schools again?

 

Sorry, the logic would suggest the exact opposite.

 

You're right about the private funding situation, and it would also apply to my historical example, when proprietary medical schools still existed in Canada. However Toronto has changed a lot in the past century. Whether or not you agree with urban sprawl, the fact is that there are a significant number of people living in the suburbs, and not all of them are well-off either. Back when medical education in Toronto was consolidated again at U of T, there would have been hardly any development north of Bloor Street. Toronto has gotten a lot bigger since then. So we have a new situation, a large population with diverse needs spread over a much larger geographical area than the old City of Toronto, which might be able to justify another medical school in the area. If the York University proposal got as far as it did, with as many supporters as it had, then there must be some merit to this idea.

 

UofT has one of the largest undergraduate medical classes in Canada. So that boat sailed about 100 students ago.

 

And I really fail to see your logic in that second point here. Do you know how much research UofT has done on inner city health, and 'local healthcare needs' like diabetes screening, and so on? And as a student based in St. Michael's Hospital, I find that comment particularly offensive.

 

If anything, world-class research institutions should be MORE focused on local healthcare, not less. Yes, UofT does some excellent research that doesn't apply to Toronto as well, but it's not an either-or situation. We're all still MDs here; I think in my class, only about 10% would say their interest in research is a priority over their interest in serving the community.

 

Again, I mention that all this is pure speculation from somebody not "in the system", so please don't take it personally and do correct me whenever I'm wrong. I'm not disparaging any of the work that U of T does -- far from it. All I'm saying is that the due to population growth in the GTA, and that York University might be in a position to support it, the people of Toronto might benefit from a new medical school in the suburbs.

[estairella]

Again, I mention that all this is pure speculation from somebody not "in the system", so please don't take it personally and do correct me whenever I'm wrong. I'm not disparaging any of the work that U of T does -- far from it. All I'm saying is that the due to population growth in the GTA, and that York University might be in a position to support it, the people of Toronto might benefit from a new medical school in the suburbs.

 

I don't disagree that having only downtown site doesn't make sense in the sprawling GTA. But isn't that what DME attempts to address?

 

In my original post, I pointed out it would make more sense to have York be a DME site as opposed to it's own medical school. That way instead of competing for resources (in terms of hospital time, MD faculty lecturers, and so on), they can collaborate on it.

 

I agree that there are some things that York University can offer that are unique, but making York a DME site would make these unique resources accessible to medical students at UofT.

 

There is only one thing stopping that from happening, and it's the egos of whoever is trying to start up the York medical school.

[Prothrombin]

If York IS to get a med school i'm thinking it won't be done until 2020.

[hailey_medschool]

If York IS to get a med school i'm thinking it won't be done until 2020.

 

care to elaborate?

[Prothrombin]

care to elaborate?

 

Government approval/funding, building the medical school, getting it equipped, hiring faculty etc. Maybe 6-7 years.

[rmorelan]

Government approval/funding, building the medical school, getting it equipped, hiring faculty etc. Maybe 6-7 years.

 

Took 5 years just to get some of the satellite schools up and running. These things just take awhile

[bpatient]

6 or 7 more years from today or from like 2008?

[nosuperman]

6 or 7 more years from today or from like 2008?

 

Though anything at this point is purely speculation, I think it'd be reasonable to say at least 6 or 7 years from today... since nobody can confirm that they've even been given the go-ahead for it.

[shannn]

Having the subway going to York is one big thing