Why Chinese mothers are superior

[Mithril]

deleted 10char

[RyanMaverick]

I've never really understood the chinese culture in the context of these articles. My opinion is that I certainly don't agree with it. You could argue that's because I'm jealous of it being "successful" or because I'm disturbed and apalled by behaviour like that - I don't even know what my real reason is.

 

Reading the original article did make one question jump to mind that I can't really answer. What happens to a chinese child who, having failed in some task and then being "motivated" (read - parents expressing extreme ashame, dissapointment, punishing the child, calling them 'garbage', etc.) that they still can't achieve said task? What if they've reached the end of their abilities yet the parents continue to push and push? The article stated the child knew she believed in her etc, but does that child really feel the same way when your mom or dad calls you worthless because you can't perform that tumbling routine and never manage to complete it?

 

What exactly does that do to the psyche and personality of that child? The story told an anecdote that had a fairy tale ending - the child suddenly pulled it all together and played a song perfectly - but what of the percentage of kids who never achieve the task?

 

That's the big thing that jumps out to me. There's other issues that have been talked about regarding guiding relationships and the success of Indian arranged marriages as well as forcing children into professional careers that may or may not be their first choice, but I think the merits of these two have been well debated - it's my above question that really gets me about this article.

[astrogirl]

I've never really understood the chinese culture in the context of these articles. My opinion is that I certainly don't agree with it. You could argue that's because I'm jealous of it being "successful" or because I'm disturbed and apalled by behaviour like that - I don't even know what my real reason is.

 

Reading the original article did make one question jump to mind that I can't really answer. What happens to a chinese child who, having failed in some task and then being "motivated" (read - parents expressing extreme ashame, dissapointment, punishing the child, calling them 'garbage', etc.) that they still can't achieve said task? What if they've reached the end of their abilities yet the parents continue to push and push? The article stated the child knew she believed in her etc, but does that child really feel the same way when your mom or dad calls you worthless because you can't perform that tumbling routine and never manage to complete it?

 

What exactly does that do to the psyche and personality of that child? The story told an anecdote that had a fairy tale ending - the child suddenly pulled it all together and played a song perfectly - but what of the percentage of kids who never achieve the task?

 

That's the big thing that jumps out to me. There's other issues that have been talked about regarding guiding relationships and the success of Indian arranged marriages as well as forcing children into professional careers that may or may not be their first choice, but I think the merits of these two have been well debated - it's my above question that really gets me about this article.

 

I agree. I don't usually get into discussions like this, and I probably won't comment again, and I certainly don't mean to offend anyone, but I don't agree with requiring your children to succeed at everything and to do it in the time frame you want. My parents taught me that it was okay to fail, because when it's okay to fail, then you're not afraid to try really hard things. And to keep trying them. And also that what you know and what you can do have nothing to do with your worth as a person. When they knew I could do better, they told me so, but when I wanted to attempt things that were really hard (like trying to work my way through junior high level math books in the second grade - yes, I was a nerd), they told me it was okay that I didn't get it right and comforted me what I was crying about not being able to it. They told me I'd get it eventually and that it was okay to take as much time as I needed. And guess what? I think I ended up being pretty successful, but I also don't define myself by my academic or professional successes. I think what defines me more is the work I put into things and my willingness to learn from both failure and success. I think being able to fail and being able to struggle for long periods of time to get something are important skills to learn, and I am glad that my parents encouraged me to try really hard things with no guarantees or requirements of success.

[hking03]

Mith, you totally stole this thread... I posted a link in wed yesterday about this.

 

I thought we were friends...

[thatonekid]

What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at it.

 

This sentence really stood out for me in the article. The fact is that this statement is untrue. Tons of things are fun even though you may be really bad at them. I'm not good at throwing pots on a pottery wheel. They don't turn out perfect and they're kind of misshappen. I know this; it's pretty obvious compared to other people's pots. However, I love it. To me, it's fun and relaxing. I know this is just one simple example, but my point is that how does a parent know a child won't find something to be fun if they're not allowed to experience it?

[Lactic Folly]

It's useful to keep in mind that the author of that article has recently released a new book, and any controversy generated by the article garners additional publicity.

[kylamonkey]

The writer was on CBC radio this morning- I missed the article but it was on at 10am here.

[seeking1]

This is the most hilarious PR stunt ever pulled.

[lostintime]

Lol it's not the first time this topic has come up. So I don't get what the huge shock value of it really is. But it is provocative and I guess just like sex/scandals, anything that is provocative despite being age old will always stir up *s.hit*.

 

Now more than anything, Asian parents recognize that their kids need "strong extracurriculars" like plays etc. to get scholarships and admissions to professional schools. If anything, they're probably encouraging it.

[Renin]

Reading this article makes me want to hide in my closet and cry for days.

 

It's true. It's true. It's true. *shake*

[apache]

i remember when i worked in fast food in hs, i met a dude who had parents like this, he took a leave of absence just for grade 10 semester finals... i didn't believe my eyes when i saw him 5 years later on the street, he was dirty and looked like a heroin junkie... that vignette pretty much summarizes what i think about the first "garbage" mother

 

on an aside (and please don't see anything racial in this, it's just a matter of observation) it's interesting that i never see any chinese people in high level management or government, obviously rote memorization and practice practice practice can get you success in certain fields, but often times it's the more resourceful grinder (excuse the hockey terminology) type people who end up as the very most "successful" people in our society

 

interestingly enough, reading through the comments below the article, i came across an article by another person who denounced her and also noticed that while she may have harbored a good environment for becoming skilled at some tasks, she clearly keeps her kids away from other less formalized modes of "education" :

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/18/opinion/18brooks.html?_r=3&ref=columnists

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html

 

And the rebuttal by a white Jewish American mother:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703333504576080422577800488.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

 

 

Thought these two were interesting articles.

[Leon]

.

Reading this article makes me want to hide in my closet and cry for days.

 

It's true. It's true. It's true. *shake*

 

LOL!

[carolynH]

it's interesting that i never see any chinese people in high level management or government, obviously rote memorization and practice practice practice can get you success in certain fields, but often times it's the more resourceful grinder (excuse the hockey terminology) type people who end up as the very most "successful" people in our society

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/18/opinion/18brooks.html?_r=3&ref=columnists

 

True to a certain extent. Have you considered the possibility of a "glass ceiling" for them? There are plenty of competent Chinese working in high level management and government, speaking fluent English in Asia, why not here?

[FMX]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html

 

And the rebuttal by a white Jewish American mother:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703333504576080422577800488.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

 

 

Thought these two were interesting articles.

 

i must say... that was a pretty hot mom until i enlarged the picture

[frozenarbitor]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/18/opinion/18brooks.html?_r=3&ref=columnists

 

If the article is not exaggerating, then I'd consider Chua to be pretty insane even with Chinese standard. I'm from a Chinese family. I grew up and lived in China till I was 14. I've never heard anything that extreme.

 

Once, one of her daughters came in second to a Korean kid in a math competition, so Chua made the girl do 2,000 math problems a night until she regained her supremacy. Once, her daughters gave her birthday cards of insufficient quality. Chua rejected them and demanded new cards. Once, she threatened to burn all of one of her daughter’s stuffed animals unless she played a piece of music perfectly.

 

I mean seriously?! That's more abuse than parenting to me.

 

My parents never really paid much attention to my grade unless I really slack off. They allow me to choose what I want to study; they are fine with party or sleepover (but I don't usually party a lot). They support most of my decisions. Even when they think I'm choosing something unfit, they would be patient and gentle when persuading against my decision. Most of the Chinese parents I know are concerned about their children's education but not harsh about the standards. For the few harsher parents that I know of, their efforts tend to be counterproductive because it only causes the children to rebel and refuse to study. Most of the kids from harsher families that I know of tend to be average academically.

 

I also find there tends to be more expectations from the Chinese parents that have moved to North America.

 

Or maybe I'm biased since I'm from a middle class family.

 

As to the absence of Chinese in higher management roles, i agree with the previous poster who mentioned "glass ceiling" for Chinese in north america. I think it's important to consider that Chinese are a minority that has been discriminated against in the past in North America (such as the Chinese exclusion act). Also many are new immigrant that needs to first overcome the language barrier (especially for a lot of the mandarin speakers). Personally, I feel most Chinese immigrate to Canada are either middle class (as skilled worker/professionals) or upper wealthy class (as business investor, need to give a large sum of money for the PR status). Most of the Chinese middle class are not interested in politics. However, many of my friends went into business, so there might be more Chinese in the business management leadership roles in the future. The upper class tends to be well off and many are here for "enjoyment". These are the Chinese kids who drives very expensive cars, dresses in expansive clothes, and fail schools.

[apache]

well who else would be in management in asia, they are exceptions to the rule, obviously, you have to remember that the vast majority of people still work as cogs in the system.

 

my best friend lived in china until he was 18 and described how people there are taught to excel in the way the mother in the article articulated.

 

interestingly enough his parents were anomalies and didn't care what he did, so long as he earned a good income, he now runs his own advertising company on the heels of a design degree, very untraditional, but that was due to unconditional parenting in the region. the amount of disdain for chinese culture he has actually is surprising, he can't go a day without making jokes about how the people in his culture are so stupid and short sighted, he'll make impersonations of over-zealous students studying and doing things they don't like to please their parents and will make fun of them for seeking eternal validation rather than following their own path.

 

he always seems interested in pointing out that most leaders in china are educated foreignly, and that "prestigious" professions like doctors or lawyers can't hold a candle to the freedom and ability to change the world of entrepreneurs and business leaders.

 

these aren't my words, they're the words of a disgruntled person who lived in asia for his upbringing, obviously i can't comment as to what develops the characteristics of leaders in asia as i didn't grow up in the culture, so i'm paraphrasing (extremely paraphrasing, ive spent hours listening to what he thinks about his culture, and explaining to me how it functions) what he has told me.

 

i really don't think there is necessarily a glass ceiling just because said person is of asian descent, but rather the differences in what is deemed to be culturally important that may serve as a glass ceiling

 

True to a certain extent. Have you considered the possibility of a "glass ceiling" for them? There are plenty of competent Chinese working in high level management and government, speaking fluent English in Asia, why not here?

[lostintime]

well who else would be in management in asia, they are exceptions to the rule, obviously, you have to remember that the vast majority of people still work as cogs in the system.

 

my best friend lived in china until he was 18 and described how people there are taught to excel in the way the mother in the article articulated.

 

interestingly enough his parents were anomalies and didn't care what he did, so long as he earned a good income, he now runs his own advertising company on the heels of a design degree, very untraditional, but that was due to unconditional parenting in the region. the amount of disdain for chinese culture he has actually is surprising, he can't go a day without making jokes about how the people in his culture are so stupid and short sighted, he'll make impersonations of over-zealous students studying and doing things they don't like to please their parents and will make fun of them for seeking eternal validation rather than following their own path.

 

he always seems interested in pointing out that most leaders in china are educated foreignly, and that "prestigious" professions like doctors or lawyers can't hold a candle to the freedom and ability to change the world of entrepreneurs and business leaders.

 

these aren't my words, they're the words of a disgruntled person who lived in asia for his upbringing, obviously i can't comment as to what develops the characteristics of leaders in asia as i didn't grow up in the culture, so i'm paraphrasing (extremely paraphrasing, ive spent hours listening to what he thinks about his culture, and explaining to me how it functions) what he has told me.

 

i really don't think there is necessarily a glass ceiling just because said person is of asian descent, but rather the differences in what is deemed to be culturally important that may serve as a glass ceiling

 

Right, and that goes for women as well in management positions. Because it's not really the glass ceiling effect. It's more because of the way subculture of feminism.....

[hastin11]

True to a certain extent. Have you considered the possibility of a "glass ceiling" for them? There are plenty of competent Chinese working in high level management and government, speaking fluent English in Asia, why not here?

 

Also--in that ny times article, it shows that she isnt even really Chinese...

[carolynH]

i really don't think there is necessarily a glass ceiling just because said person is of asian descent, but rather the differences in what is deemed to be culturally important that may serve as a glass ceiling

 

Muse, I do mostly agree with you. I find a lot of Chinese are very good technical workers but not managerial type, but there are exceptions. That's why I referred to a "glass ceiling" possibility. What I notice though is that the "glass ceiling" seems to have gotten much thinner nowadays, and that's a good thing to see.

[hking03]

but my mam sent me to good school to learn western ways and here I am, apply to Canadain med school and beating out even canada loser applicants !!!!

 

i'm assuming you are either a troll or don't realize that calling other applicants losers is a bad thing... i'll let that slide.

 

having said that- with grammar and spelling like that, i'm sure the mmi will be a fun time for you.

 

good luck dude.

[apache]

well, of course there are exceptions, one example is the guy who runs the toastmasters club on campus here, i can already see he'll be a very successful leader in the future.

 

i think there is a glass ceiling for most minorities, obviously we can't deny that, i agree that it's better that it's disappearing

 

Muse, I do mostly agree with you. I find a lot of Chinese are very good technical workers but not managerial type, but there are exceptions. That's why I referred to a "glass ceiling" possibility. What I notice though is that the "glass ceiling" seems to have gotten much thinner nowadays, and that's a good thing to see.

[apache]

you're taking my words out of context.

 

i didn't say there wasn't a glass ceiling, i just said that the culture had more to do with it than the glass ceiling that exists strictly because you were of a different ethnicity, there are obviously both, i think you're misinterpreting what i'm saying. btw, there are many women in who are high ranking executives of major companies: i.e. former ebay ceo, lululemon, pepsi, yahoo etc. i think the arbitrary being a woman glass ceiling plays more of a role with woman than racial ceilings placed on people of asian nationality. on the contrary i think there is a cultural ceiling that prevents people who have an eastern upbringing from attaining these positions that isn't really as prevalent with western women.

 

Right, and that goes for women as well in management positions. Because it's not really the glass ceiling effect. It's more because of the way subculture of feminism.....

[lostintime]

you're taking my words out of context.

 

i didn't say there wasn't a glass ceiling, i just said that the culture had more to do with it than the glass ceiling that exists strictly because you were of a different ethnicity, there are obviously both, i think you're misinterpreting what i'm saying. btw, there are many women in who are high ranking executives of major companies: i.e. former ebay ceo, lululemon, pepsi, yahoo etc. i think the arbitrary being a woman glass ceiling plays more of a role with woman than racial ceilings placed on people of asian nationality. on the contrary i think there is a cultural ceiling that prevents people who have an eastern upbringing from attaining these positions that isn't really as prevalent with western women.

 

And what are you basing this on in terms of there being more of a glass ceiling for women versus cultural/ethnic upbringing? Just personal feelings? Yeah I haven't looked up any studies yet (and don't really have time to), but feel free to share actual evidence because based on how I feel, I don't see that being the case. Of course, there's successful Asians and women who make it to those positions, but it's the relative amount of women or Asians. The vast majority are still middle aged upper class Caucasian men.

[garret9]

I'm white, middle class male who played sports (in mediocre levels) and grew up with "typical western parents." I had average grades in High School and my parents were happy as long as the teacher said that the effort was there.

I just got top in the school in calculus... I beat aprox 80 asians...

I say there's to variables to know what works and what doesn't.

[AndreaM]

It was certainly an interesting read. I think there is a lot of variation from one extreme to the other. I remember when I was in high school I brought home a test with a grade of 97% and my dad would ask me what happened to the other 3%? But on the other hand I was given a lot of choice in my extra-curricular activities and my parents gave me the tools and support to succeed. From driving to youth band every week and music lessons to extra drama practice for the school play they were there. I was also required to participate in at least one sport per year (which I hated), but it didn't matter whether I was good at it or not.

 

Once when I was trying to learn to water ski, I just could not get up out of the water, and my dad told me that as long as I wanted to keep going he would keep at it until either I wanted to quit, or the boat ran out of gas. After an hour of trying I finally did manage to do it and I was increadibly proud of myself.

 

You don't have to be Chinese to push your kids and you don't have to be white to be a permissive parent.