Matching in pathology

[Yalta]

Hey, I'm wondering how hard it is to match in anatomical pathology. I'm a second year student at a canadian med school. When I read about selection criteria on the carms website, many programs list ''above-average academic record''.

 

How much of that is true for programs in general ?

 

Also, every program lists research in the selection criteria, would it be a big asset to invest my last summer in a project ?

[DubZteR]

Hey, I'm wondering how hard it is to match in anatomical pathology. I'm a second year student at a canadian med school. When I read about selection criteria on the carms website, many programs list ''above-average academic record''. Even a program director at a canadian program told me that he looks at academic standing in year 1 and 2 and that a ranking above average is highly preferred if not required.

 

How much of that is true for programs in general ? Is it still possible to match with lower than average pre-clinical grades ? I know that the amount of material to cover in this residency must be huge and grades and ranking must be a good indicator of an applicant's capability for the admission committee I guess...

 

Also, every program lists research in the selection criteria, would it be a big asset to invest my last summer in a project ?

 

uhmm ... right now ... it probably isn't very hard to match into path.

 

I was talking to two PGY-5 path residents today as their carms interview day is tomorrow and apparently they got a ridiculously low number of CMG apps this year (<10).... most likely cuz of the crappy job market in Canada in the specialty

[Lactic Folly]

Also, every program lists research in the selection criteria, would it be a big asset to invest my last summer in a project ?

Do you have any research experience at present? For pathology, I think it would be important to demonstrate your understanding of and genuine interest in the specialty. Electives would be helpful. Certainly pathology-related research is a bonus, but you could look into whether there are smaller-scale projects, such as something in quality assurance.

[rmorelan]

Hey, I'm wondering how hard it is to match in anatomical pathology. I'm a second year student at a canadian med school. When I read about selection criteria on the carms website, many programs list ''above-average academic record''. Even a program director at a canadian program told me that he looks at academic standing in year 1 and 2 and that a ranking above average is highly preferred if not required.

 

How much of that is true for programs in general ? Is it still possible to match with lower than average pre-clinical grades ? I know that the amount of material to cover in this residency must be huge and grades and ranking must be a good indicator of an applicant's capability for the admission committee I guess...

 

Also, every program lists research in the selection criteria, would it be a big asset to invest my last summer in a project ?

 

Most schools don't even have preclinical grades. How would they use that? The majority are now on a pass fail system. My transcript now looks exactly the same as every one elses - it is all P for pass

[Lactic Folly]

Schools who are P/F may still have awards for academic excellence. Receiving one would definitely identify you as above average

[rmorelan]

Schools who are P/F may still have awards for academic excellence. Receiving one would definitely identify you as above average

 

Sure - Western has a few of those but they aren't giving out really in a timely fashion. I am on the awards committee and we have had only one of those a year so far

 

Point is any program relying on preclinical grades is going to have a really tough time right now. I have heard rads people still trying to cling to grades too but the system as it is just doesn't support it.

[ubcredfox]

Haha, I think I know which program you're talking about too.

 

I don't think that the job market in Canada for Path is atrocious, but it isn't Family Practice, nor will it be.

 

The "job market" is tight for many specialties in Canada. MANY. There is a surgery fellow where I am right now without a job. Another with a fellowship in MIS from Harvard is working but in a community hospital in the middle of nowhere. There are no GI positions where I am, and Cards is slim pickings as well. Basically, anything tied to a hospital is not doing so well as in our neck of the woods the healthcare budget just got slashed 6%.

 

These are the symptoms of a financial system slowly imploding on itself. I'd prepare myself for making about half of what they pay now in the not too distant future. And besides, with salary adjustments like that, I'm sure work will open up.

 

Oh, and currently there are a few job openings advertised openly on the CAP website. And at my institution, there are currently 4 unfilled pathology spots. I also just got an email about work in Montreal. Oh, and if you want to do Peds Path, well then there are spots in every major city in Canada (i.e. Van, TO, Montreal). So it isn't total and utter hell.

 

But remember, if you do Path you do dead people all the time. No live ones get through our doors. And it is an INTENSE program because, believe it or not, there's actually quite a bit to know.

[Lactic Folly]

Well.. the bits that get sent to the lab are dead and preserved.. but most of the people they belong to are still alive (and waiting anxiously for their results!) Autopsies are declining in frequency and form a small portion of one's work.

[GrouchoMarx]

Haha, I think I know which program you're talking about too.

 

I don't think that the job market in Canada for Path is atrocious, but it isn't Family Practice, nor will it be.

 

The "job market" is tight for many specialties in Canada. MANY. There is a surgery fellow where I am right now without a job. Another with a fellowship in MIS from Harvard is working but in a community hospital in the middle of nowhere. There are no GI positions where I am, and Cards is slim pickings as well. Basically, anything tied to a hospital is not doing so well as in our neck of the woods the healthcare budget just got slashed 6%.

 

These are the symptoms of a financial system slowly imploding on itself. I'd prepare myself for making about half of what they pay now in the not too distant future. And besides, with salary adjustments like that, I'm sure work will open up.

 

Oh, and currently there are a few job openings advertised openly on the CAP website. And at my institution, there are currently 4 unfilled pathology spots. I also just got an email about work in Montreal. Oh, and if you want to do Peds Path, well then there are spots in every major city in Canada (i.e. Van, TO, Montreal). So it isn't total and utter hell.

 

But remember, if you do Path you do dead people all the time. No live ones get through our doors. And it is an INTENSE program because, believe it or not, there's actually quite a bit to know.

 

Hello.

 

I am interested in path and want to know what program you think DubZter is speaking about, and what your opinion of that program is. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

PM me if you don't want to post.

[Yalta]

Thanks for your answers.

[Yalta]

ubcredfox, you are a resident I guess. If you have the time, could you post a typical week sample in terms of working and also reading/studying hours ? I'm curious. I assume that path is a very intense program as you say, in term of knowledge to master.

[Lactic Folly]

Sounds like it's time to make a trip down to the path department if pathology is truly what you are interested in, and ask what you can do to strengthen your chances. If your marks are just slightly below average, that would put you in the company of a significant chunk of your classmates. You are still early enough in the process to bolster your application, and if you have a chance to work within the path department and have them get to know you as a good, hard-working person, I think that will be a big help. Programs usually prefer to take people that they know are motivated and have strong personal attributes; someone with high grades but whose personality is unknown is more of a risk.

[DubZteR]

Hello.

 

I am interested in path and want to know what program you think DubZter is speaking about, and what your opinion of that program is. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

PM me if you don't want to post.

 

I'm talking about McMaster's Path program. From what the residents tell me, it's one of the best programs in the country but I'm not in path so don't take my word for it.

 

Maybe one of the path residents can agree or clarify.

[DubZteR]

Haha, I think I know which program you're talking about too.

 

I don't think that the job market in Canada for Path is atrocious, but it isn't Family Practice, nor will it be.

 

The "job market" is tight for many specialties in Canada. MANY. There is a surgery fellow where I am right now without a job. Another with a fellowship in MIS from Harvard is working but in a community hospital in the middle of nowhere. There are no GI positions where I am, and Cards is slim pickings as well. Basically, anything tied to a hospital is not doing so well as in our neck of the woods the healthcare budget just got slashed 6%.

 

These are the symptoms of a financial system slowly imploding on itself. I'd prepare myself for making about half of what they pay now in the not too distant future. And besides, with salary adjustments like that, I'm sure work will open up.

 

Oh, and currently there are a few job openings advertised openly on the CAP website. And at my institution, there are currently 4 unfilled pathology spots. I also just got an email about work in Montreal. Oh, and if you want to do Peds Path, well then there are spots in every major city in Canada (i.e. Van, TO, Montreal). So it isn't total and utter hell.

 

But remember, if you do Path you do dead people all the time. No live ones get through our doors. And it is an INTENSE program because, believe it or not, there's actually quite a bit to know.

 

There's a PGY-4 visiting path resident on a 6 mo elective here right now. Maybe you know who I'm talking about?

 

Good to hear that there are some jobs available .

[ubcredfox]

No, I wasn't talking about the McMaster Path program. I didn't think that was a strong program at all, but I have never visited it. I know this only by word of mouth. I can't comment directly about which program - privately or publicly - until Carms is over. However, I think it is safe to say that Pathology in general doesn't get huge amounts of applicants. Interestingly, in the 2009 Match Cycle, that was the first year where people who ranked it as their "1st Choice Specialty" didn't get matched to it. However, that is surely an anomaly.

 

A typical week is divided into a scheduled rota, where your tasks change from day to day. I would recommend a program with less scut work and more learning. I don't believe in autocracy, and hate being told what to do just for the hell of me doing it.

 

This rota is valid only for a general surgical path rotation (of which you will do either a couple of years, or 18 months as GP resident). Most other rotations, including sub-specialty electives have varied schedules that you really work out with whoever you happen to be working with.

 

You gross for one day, receive cases for a couple of days, sign out for a couple of days, and have one day for frozen section/autopsy work (unless your program has a fixed autopsy rotation). I think a fixed autopsy rotation is as bonus, because then you can focus on cutting up the dead, and then forget about it.

 

Most days start at 0830. Here we have a mandatory one hour round each morning. During the work week there are usually 3 hours of other mandatory rounds. Our program is well organized, and we have specialized rounds in bone/soft tissue, dermatopathology and a rotating round which covers lots of stuff each week. Then there is a half-day as is mandated by the college. Most of the residents are here till 1700-1730 each day. There are usually 2-3 late days a week, where you can be there up to midnight if you feel like it. Depends on how may slides you want to go through. There is never any evening call. We do weekend call for autopsies which is about one weekend in five. As you move up the program, the hours get better but you tend to read more at home. I think it's challenging doing loads of reading on top of a very busy surgical path rotation. You have to keep in mind that you're always preparing a seminar or lecture on something. Depending on how poorly organized your program is, a good chunk of your day may be spent hunting staff to sign out with. I find that very frustrating.

 

I think if you were interested in doing Path and would want to really compare programs, I would not even bother asking all that useless junk about how much they learn etc...because that really depends on you.

 

What is important is: 1) how available are staff to teach you 2) how are your rounds organized and what structured teaching takes place during the week 3) how much bull$hit do you have to do? i.e. grossing, autopsies - yes they are good learning at first, but after a while you are just a monkey 4) how friendly are people? 5) how much research are you really supposed to do, not what the College mandates... 6) what is your funding like to attend conferences, present research etc...this is actually more important in Path then most other specialties because your research output is key for fellowship positions, which can be important if you want an academic spot in AP somewhere in Canada.

 

That's all I can think of right now. I think Path is OK. It's an interesting, pretty decent job, with great lifestyle and overall low acuity. It can be stressful, especially since you feel like you're starting medical school all over again with all the stuff you have to know. I go drinking most weekends. Very rarely worry about call...if at all. I never wear a pager in the hospital. I go for coffee 2-3 times a day and really generally take it easy.

[Yalta]

Nice post ubcredfox. Thank you.

 

No, I wasn't talking about the McMaster Path program. I didn't think that was a strong program at all, but I have never visited it. I know this only by word of mouth. I can't comment directly about which program - privately or publicly - until Carms is over. However, I think it is safe to say that Pathology in general doesn't get huge amounts of applicants. Interestingly, in the 2009 Match Cycle, that was the first year where people who ranked it as their "1st Choice Specialty" didn't get matched to it. However, that is surely an anomaly.

 

A typical week is divided into a scheduled rota, where your tasks change from day to day. I would recommend a program with less scut work and more learning. I don't believe in autocracy, and hate being told what to do just for the hell of me doing it.

 

This rota is valid only for a general surgical path rotation (of which you will do either a couple of years, or 18 months as GP resident). Most other rotations, including sub-specialty electives have varied schedules that you really work out with whoever you happen to be working with.

 

You gross for one day, receive cases for a couple of days, sign out for a couple of days, and have one day for frozen section/autopsy work (unless your program has a fixed autopsy rotation). I think a fixed autopsy rotation is as bonus, because then you can focus on cutting up the dead, and then forget about it.

 

Most days start at 0830. Here we have a mandatory one hour round each morning. During the work week there are usually 3 hours of other mandatory rounds. Our program is well organized, and we have specialized rounds in bone/soft tissue, dermatopathology and a rotating round which covers lots of stuff each week. Then there is a half-day as is mandated by the college. Most of the residents are here till 1700-1730 each day. There are usually 2-3 late days a week, where you can be there up to midnight if you feel like it. Depends on how may slides you want to go through. There is never any evening call. We do weekend call for autopsies which is about one weekend in five. As you move up the program, the hours get better but you tend to read more at home. I think it's challenging doing loads of reading on top of a very busy surgical path rotation. You have to keep in mind that you're always preparing a seminar or lecture on something. Depending on how poorly organized your program is, a good chunk of your day may be spent hunting staff to sign out with. I find that very frustrating.

 

I think if you were interested in doing Path and would want to really compare programs, I would not even bother asking all that useless junk about how much they learn etc...because that really depends on you.

 

What is important is: 1) how available are staff to teach you 2) how are your rounds organized and what structured teaching takes place during the week 3) how much bull$hit do you have to do? i.e. grossing, autopsies - yes they are good learning at first, but after a while you are just a monkey 4) how friendly are people? 5) how much research are you really supposed to do, not what the College mandates... 6) what is your funding like to attend conferences, present research etc...this is actually more important in Path then most other specialties because your research output is key for fellowship positions, which can be important if you want an academic spot in AP somewhere in Canada.

 

That's all I can think of right now. I think Path is OK. It's an interesting, pretty decent job, with great lifestyle and overall low acuity. It can be stressful, especially since you feel like you're starting medical school all over again with all the stuff you have to know. I go drinking most weekends. Very rarely worry about call...if at all. I never wear a pager in the hospital. I go for coffee 2-3 times a day and really generally take it easy.

[Yalta]

In Quebec if you want ROPE PAD, as Brooksbane would say, or ROAD etc, you gotta have great rotations AND the pre-clinical grades. French schools : no pass or fail like the rest of Canada. At least it's fair for those who work their asses off. But couldn't one be a decent pathologist with a 82 % lower than average average instead of a 86 % ? Let's wait for the fall semester grades with this cool 5-6% standard deviation. Anyway...

[pathman]

Sounds like things might be a little more difficult in Quebec schools.

I matched to pathology during CaRMS last year in an Ontario school (not McMaster).

 

Here's what you need to match to pathology in an English speaking school:

 

1. Passes in your pre-clinical and clinical exams

2. elective(s) in pathology

3. no red flags in your application

 

If you are a normal person and have fun with the interviews, then you'll match somewhere.

[GrouchoMarx]

Sounds like things might be a little more difficult in Quebec schools.

I matched to pathology during CaRMS last year in an Ontario school (not McMaster).

 

 

Does McMaster suck that much? If it does I won't even bother doing an elective there.

[pathman]

Does McMaster suck that much? If it does I won't even bother doing an elective there.

 

Sorry. I don't know whether McMaster's program sucks. Truthfully I know very little about it. I was certain I didn't want to live in Hamilton, so I didn't even bother learning about the program, let alone apply there.

The reason I wanted to clarify that I wasn't at McMaster was because the program had been mentioned a few times in this thread.

[Knovecc]

3. no red flags in your application

 

sorry but, what do you mean "no red flags"?

[ubcredfox]

Canada isn't that big. There's really only a few decent Path programs across the country. These are generally in large population centers which allow for a dichotomy of cases and attraction/retention of a larger numbers of pathologists.

 

The better programs across the country are UBC, Edmonton (especially for cardiac pathology), Toronto, McGill (perhaps nosediving a bit now because of the general state of medicine in Quebec) and Dalhousie.

 

I would be very cautious about attending a program that takes only one or two residents a year. You need upper year residents for mentorship. You also need a critical mass to spread out the scut (grossing, autopsies). Larger programs have more staff with greater opportunities for research opportunities, and more importantly, perhaps more connections in helping you land a job and/or fellowship.

 

That's just my take on it. I never did an elective at Mac either, but I haven't heard many good things. The same goes for Sask's GP program, Queen's path program and Memorial's.

 

There is no perfect program by any measure. But I think if you go to a bigger spot then you hedge your bets in a more positive direction rather then being crippled from day one.

[Laika]

I've heard good things about the path programs at Western and Ottawa as well. Can anyone here comment on them?

[thebouque]

you have to know more deep knowledge about everything than any other specialty save for radiology.

 

This is EXACTLY what's great with pathology from my point of view.

[gb35]

What's the path job market like these days??