Gen Surg and IMG

[Handsome88]

Are there any statistics to give us an idea of how IMGs applying to Gen Surg or an equally competitive specialty do? Would you think it is still too difficult (huge risk of not matching) for a canadian IMG from a top international institution to match if they did electives in Canada? How does it compare with for example IM? Note that I do not care where I match, anywhere in Canada is fine with me!

 

Just want to know if its an option.

Thank you.

 

 

P.S I did look around the forum first for an answer, but the earliest statistics I found were outdated (2003) and not about IMGs.

[Guest copacetic]

check the carms statistics website, they should have information on this

[Handsome88]

check the carms statistics website, they should have information on this

 

6 people matched out of 48...That looks like a very low percentage on the surface, would that mean it's too risky for a fresh canadian IMG from a reputable university? Or are most of these applicants people who are not fresh graduates, didn't do electives in Canada, from obscure universities in Caribbean...etc?

I just want to know if I should stay away or go for it. Thanks.

[leviathan]

6 people matched out of 48...That looks like a very low percentage on the surface, would that mean it's too risky for a fresh canadian IMG from a reputable university? Or are most of these applicants people who are not fresh graduates, didn't do electives in Canada, from obscure universities in Caribbean...etc?

I just want to know if I should stay away or go for it. Thanks.

That's a question I wonder too. Are all 48 of those applicants competitive? Or maybe only the 6 that matched were actually fresh grads from good schools with good board scores and letters (ie competitive). I've never been able to get an answer about that. The CEO of CaRMS did some clever calculations of the stats to try and figure out how many were Canadians studying abroad and found that about 50% of them match, even though the national IMG match rate is much lower. I wonder if she has ever done that specifically for certain specialties like gen surg or otherwise.

[leviathan]

6 people matched out of 48...That looks like a very low percentage on the surface, would that mean it's too risky for a fresh canadian IMG from a reputable university? Or are most of these applicants people who are not fresh graduates, didn't do electives in Canada, from obscure universities in Caribbean...etc?

I just want to know if I should stay away or go for it. Thanks.

That's a question I wonder too. Are all 48 of those applicants competitive? Or maybe only the 6 that matched were actually fresh grads from good schools with good board scores and letters (ie competitive). I've never been able to get an answer about that. The CEO of CaRMS did some clever calculations of the stats to try and figure out how many were Canadians studying abroad and found that about 50% of them match, even though the national IMG match rate is much lower. I wonder if she has ever done that specifically for certain specialties like gen surg or otherwise.

[leviathan]

6 people matched out of 48...That looks like a very low percentage on the surface, would that mean it's too risky for a fresh canadian IMG from a reputable university? Or are most of these applicants people who are not fresh graduates, didn't do electives in Canada, from obscure universities in Caribbean...etc?

I just want to know if I should stay away or go for it. Thanks.

That's a question I wonder too. Are all 48 of those applicants competitive? Or maybe only the 6 that matched were actually fresh grads from good schools with good board scores and letters (ie competitive). I've never been able to get an answer about that. The CEO of CaRMS did some clever calculations of the stats to try and figure out how many were Canadians studying abroad and found that about 50% of them match, even though the national IMG match rate is much lower. I wonder if she has ever done that specifically for certain specialties like gen surg or otherwise.

[Handsome88]

That's a question I wonder too. Are all 48 of those applicants competitive? Or maybe only the 6 that matched were actually fresh grads from good schools with good board scores and letters (ie competitive). I've never been able to get an answer about that. The CEO of CaRMS did some clever calculations of the stats to try and figure out how many were Canadians studying abroad and found that about 50% of them match, even though the national IMG match rate is much lower. I wonder if she has ever done that specifically for certain specialties like gen surg or otherwise.

 

from CaRMS, only about 11% of applicants in R1 first iteration match are recent graduates. I don't know about the percentage for specific specialties. But I'd assume that less non-recent graduates would apply to competitive ones like Gen Surg (as it's probably their second try around and they learnt their lesson not to apply to competitive ones and go for FM)....I'd ball-park it around 40% Recent to 60% non-recent, just arbitrary numbers. So of the 48 applicants, probably 25 are recent graduates, maybe 20 of those are Canadian with good scores. So if you are a recent graduate, Canadian with good scores then you have a (6/20) 30% chance...still very risky if you ask me . Still better than the US where your chances are <1% to get into Gen Surg as an IMG.

[BoyInTheBubble]

You are just making up numbers to....

 

 

...tell yourself what you want to hear? Justify your actions? Maybe if we're lucky, someone will quote you next week!

 

For someone who isn't even medical school, your questions about general surgery and other 'equally competitive' specialties (whatever you mean by that) and IM Fellowships are getting ahead of yourself.

 

It is good to be aware of what you are getting into, but going through medical school with an open outlook is more important than knowing whether ROS allows for a fellowship that you might not want in 7-8 years. Many students' impressions and career choices change.

 

 

And besides, there were 237 applicants to general surgery (3rd PDF on carms stats page). 48 made it to the second stage and were offered interviews. So your stats just got smashed.

[Handsome88]

You are just making up numbers to....

 

 

...tell yourself what you want to hear? Justify your actions? Maybe if we're lucky, someone will quote you next week!

 

For someone who isn't even medical school, your questions about general surgery and other 'equally competitive' specialties (whatever you mean by that) and IM Fellowships are getting ahead of yourself.

 

It is good to be aware of what you are getting into, but going through medical school with an open outlook is more important than knowing whether ROS allows for a fellowship that you might not want in 7-8 years. Many students' impressions and career choices change.

 

 

And besides, there were 237 applicants to general surgery (3rd PDF on carms stats page). 48 made it to the second stage and were offered interviews. So your stats just got smashed.

 

First of all, I wasn't serious, it was just a joke and I said it was arbitrary numbers.

 

And I am in medical school, so I'm not getting ahead of myself.

 

I'm trying my best to keep an open outlook, but as an IMG it is tough to do that. Our options are not so "open". Even if my choice changes and I fall in love with ENT or Rad Onc, I'm not stupid enough to apply for that. That's why I'm looking for realistic options by studying statistics.

 

Who said 48 made it to the second stage? You are wrong, it says 48 listed it as FIRST CHOICE (the rest were applicants that had it as back-up), and the people who got accepted were from the people who listed it as first choice.

 

Your bubble just got smashed

[BoyInTheBubble]

Carms says there were 237 'active applicants'. 48 had it first. Of those 48, 6 matched into general surgery and 3 matched into something else.

 

One person matched into general surgery who listed something else as their first choice. Don't discount the other 189 automatically. Maybe they put cardiac, neuro or ortho first, but really like surgery. Since you like statistics, 15% of accepted general surgery candidates did NOT list it as their first choice! Ohhh the insanity!

 

One more matched in the second round.

 

Yes, you are SOL if you fall in love ENT. There are at least 3 rad onc spots if you want them. Considering there are only 20 total, its not THAT bad.

 

You weren't joking.

[Knightmd]

6 people matched out of 48...That looks like a very low percentage on the surface, would that mean it's too risky for a fresh canadian IMG from a reputable university? Or are most of these applicants people who are not fresh graduates, didn't do electives in Canada, from obscure universities in Caribbean...etc?

I just want to know if I should stay away or go for it. Thanks.

48??

 

I have it on high authority that at least 250 IMG applicants applied for the 6 surgery spots last year.

 

This year, it was 190 applicants -at least.

[Knightmd]

from CaRMS, only about 11% of applicants in R1 first iteration match are recent graduates. I don't know about the percentage for specific specialties. But I'd assume that less non-recent graduates would apply to competitive ones like Gen Surg (as it's probably their second try around and they learnt their lesson not to apply to competitive ones and go for FM)....I'd ball-park it around 40% Recent to 60% non-recent, just arbitrary numbers. So of the 48 applicants, probably 25 are recent graduates, maybe 20 of those are Canadian with good scores. So if you are a recent graduate, Canadian with good scores then you have a (6/20) 30% chance...still very risky if you ask me . Still better than the US where your chances are <1% to get into Gen Surg as an IMG.

 

Interesting theory... but it takes longer time to prepare a compelling application for a competitive specialty...

[BoyInTheBubble]

48??

 

I have it on high authority that at least 250 IMG applicants applied for the 6 surgery spots last year.

 

This year, it was 190 applicants -at least.

 

UWO received ~175 from IMGs this year. Interviewed ~12.

 

For the one spot.

[Knightmd]

UWO received ~175 from IMGs this year. Interviewed ~12.

 

For the one spot.

 

So they received less applications than uOttawa. Maybe it's because by now everyone knows they do it to prove they tried to find a good applicant, but couldn't (just like they did last year and maybe the year before). Last year they received more applications, interviewed 12 applicants, and ended up taking a CMG in the second round.

[jnuts]

I'm not sure if the CaRMS stats include applicants that don't get interviews and therefore don't rank any programs. I heard there were about 200 applications each for all of the Gen Surg IMG spots in Ontario.

 

UWO received ~175 from IMGs this year. Interviewed ~12.

 

For the one spot.

[Guest copacetic]

carms only has stats for people that interviewed.

[BoyInTheBubble]

I'm not sure if the CaRMS stats include applicants that don't get interviews and therefore don't rank any programs. I heard there were about 200 applications each for all of the Gen Surg IMG spots in Ontario.

 

I heard those numbers from the horse's mouth (aka the PD when I did an elective...)

 

Ottawa said they got 190-200. Quickly cut the pile down to 40-50. Then reviewed those applications thoroughly until they offered 15 interviews for their 1 spot. They said it's not ideal, but they don't have the time/resources to review all 200 thoroughly AND it's unfair to interview people who have a slim chance. Eg if you are #27 or #35 on the 'offer them an interview list', odds are you won't jump 26 or 34 spots to become the top applicant.

[wildcard]

Not sure if this is the thread to post this on, but since its on the topic of Surgery and IMGs......

 

Would IMGs have a better shot at a surgery spot if they take some time off to do research and make contacts? I'm asking b/c I know an IMG who got six interviews in Ontario (!) (yes, six) without having done any research or electives in Canada at the time of the application, nor did this IMG have a stellar (or even close to stellar...more like 'below average') academic record. So I'm just confused.....I thought hard work and sincere efforts were the answer.....now I'm not so sure.

 

Oh....I should mention that said IMG's parent is a practicing surgeon in Canada.

 

Anyways, does anyone know any IMG success stories in the Surgery in Canada?

[MarathonRunner]

Oh....I should mention that said IMG's parent is a practicing surgeon in Canada.

 

There's your answer. Unfortunately, a lot of what happens with CaRMS depends on who you know, not what you know. It's all about having connections, and having made connections with the right people. At least that's what I've been told by those who have gone through the process (I'm only starting medical school myself this fall).

[rmorelan]

There's your answer. Unfortunately, a lot of what happens with CaRMS depends on who you know, not what you know. It's all about having connections, and having made connections with the right people. At least that's what I've been told by those who have gone through the process (I'm only starting medical school myself this fall).

 

CarRMS is a job interview process so like every single other job interview process there is definitely some of that - the point though is that every does get a chance to develop those contacts once you are at the school. You just have to start reaching out for them.

 

Oh and since over 20% of the people as IMG from Canada actually have parent(s) as doctors there certainly is a lot of them out there - I guess there are reasonable odds the finalists for any position would have that connection.

[wildcard]

Oh and since over 20% of the people as IMG from Canada actually have parent(s) as doctors there certainly is a lot of them out there - I guess there are reasonable odds the finalists for any position would have that connection.

 

That's a statistic I learned fairly recently too....I was kinda surprised actually.

[rmorelan]

That's a statistic I learned fairly recently too....I was kinda surprised actually.

 

Yeah I was surprised too! I guess when you think about it though going IMG is expensive and having a parent that a) has the money knows there is luck involved in the system c) may even be pushing their children in that direction I suppose it kind of makes sense.