apache Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Coercion (pronounced /koʊˈɜrʃən/) is the practice of forcing another party to behave in an involuntary manner (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats, rewards, or intimidation or some other form of pressure or force. If the glove fits, you must convict! It does have something to do with renumeration because in a way you're tied to this job and doing these countless house, both for the factors I cited earlier and the coercive environment that they work in, psychological abuse is just as coercive as financial or any other more transparent form. On an aside, no one forces illegal aliens to work for 50 dollars a week and take the verbal abuse they do, but they do it anyways just to support their family, guess some work places just suck! With regard to doing something you enjoy doing doesn't give someone a license to systemically abuse you, shame you, occasionally violate your union agreement etc. What definition of coersion are you using here? Just because their life sucks doesn't mean they were being coerced. First of all, no one coerved them to go into surgery where "abuse" is well-known and commonplace. Secondly - yes, some working environments suck - but thats probably just as true of the garbage disposal industry as it is in medicine. Some people are jerks - but that has nothing to do with the remuneration........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itimebomb2 Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 No. Please. Keep going. I don't think your foot is deep enough into your bowels yet. Resorting to name-calling?? With regard to doing something you enjoy doing doesn't give someone a license to systemically abuse you, shame you, occasionally violate your union agreement etc. Twice I have already agreed that working conditions are a problem in some programs and should be addressed. No amount of payment justifies verbal or emotional abuse. The remuneration argument I'm making solely has to do with number of hours worked, and again, no one is forcing residents to do their job even after they've started a residency (let alone the fact that they should have anticipated it before entering medical school -- when was the last time someone didn't know medicine was hard work??) The "work-hour abuse" that some residents are subject to is wholly voluntary. The choice to quit medicine as a career in Canada is as free a choice as almost any person in this world can make - there are tonnes of things you can do with an MD which are infinitely more lucrative that what the average person can look forward to if they quit their job... and let's not forget about REAL slavery (which we so glibly compare to medical residency) -- where quitting isn't an option. If you're going to lean on the point that premeds don't understand how hard residency/clerkship is before getting there -- does that mean you don't believe an educated decision on a job choice can EVER be made?? That we're all just aimlessly picking professions and then hoping they don't suck when we're 10 years into it? Sure there's some degree of uncertainty - but that doesn't absolve us from the majority of the responsibility. No one is hiding the fact that residents and clerks are overworked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 the difference between making a job choice in accounting and medicine is that in medicine your already so deep in loans, education, etc. that bailing is way harder to do, whereas if you don't like accounting, well, it's not that hard to transfer to marketing etc. the work hour abuse isn't voluntary, at many centres there's pressure to stay after hours that impacts your future and career. you sound like ann coulter when you attribute everything to free agency, she once said being born in a ghetto and not having food on the table didn't cause people to sell drugs, but they made the decision themselves. i hate to tell you, but free will, as you define it, doesn't exist. besides that i think we mostly disagree, so there's no use arguing anymore, we've both had different backgrounds and view things from a different angle... i think my angle is more representative of most peoples views but who knows... cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 you should stop. Agreed. It's starting to look worse and worse with each posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lactic Folly Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 I'm imagining an encounter with a recalcitrant smoker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 smoking didn't cause my lung cancer, that damn wellbutrin did, damn doctors, what do you know I'm imagining an encounter with a recalcitrant smoker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 smoking didn't cause my lung cancer, that damn wellbutrin did, damn doctors, what do you know But at least it didn't reduce your libido. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coastalslacker Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 I'm imagining an encounter with a recalcitrant smoker. lol! 5char Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
entkeener Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 You're missing that many of the hours we work, for a normal job, would be paid at overtime rates (pay and a half), so when you consider that we make less than $10/h. If you took the number of hours and over halved them to a 40 hour week you would still work more than the avg. govt. worker at 37.5/wk. If you then halved the salary accordingly you'd be making 25-26k per year in the HIGHEST paid provinces. If you assume you are working 240 days/year (365 days - (4 wks vacation + no weekends), you make a grand total of: $13 bucks and change per hour. The people in our hospital Tim Horton's make significantly more than this. Hell, the people at the private Tim Horton's make over $10 an hour. That's downright shocking. By the way, if you work it out to 80 hours per week at 52k a year it's roughly the same hourly wage, except now you get the added benefit of losing more to taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheech10 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 And you're forgetting the amount that you would have to pay in tuition for a similar training position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
entkeener Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 And you're forgetting the amount that you would have to pay in tuition for a similar training position. May be news to you, but we do pay tuition in Ontario, albeit significantly less than medical school tuition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 i was thinking about my career when i was grocery shopping earlier today and realized if i worked 80 hours a week with ot, as a nurse, i'd have finished school already, and at the starting wage, i'd be making 180 k a year, at the top, 210 k... hmm, maybe nursing is the answer... just sayin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 i was thinking about my career when i was grocery shopping earlier today and realized if i worked 80 hours a week with ot, as a nurse, i'd have finished school already, and at the starting wage, i'd be making 180 k a year, at the top, 210 k... hmm, maybe nursing is the answer... just sayin Nobody's gonna let you work 80 hrs/wk and get paid OT as a nurse, AHS aren't idiots. Why pay someone OT when you can get a ton of part-time employees and avoid paying benefits? Not to mention, the only nursing union contract I've read (at my old job at East Central Health) capped the wages at $37/hr (10 years seniority). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 i was being hypothetical , it was something the happened way back before the amalgamation of all the health districts. there's also shift differential... i'm just comparing that to your average surg residents hours, and the relative responsibility... even the 75 k you start at is pretty good for being 22, having a relatively low student debt etc. here's an example of some people in quebec (which pays less than alberta) who are milking the system: http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/weird/2010/10/04/15616981.html the person working 70 hours a week was making like 130, i dunno how many hours the guy making 220 was working, must be insane! Nobody's gonna let you work 80 hrs/wk and get paid OT as a nurse, AHS aren't idiots. Why pay someone OT when you can get a ton of part-time employees and avoid paying benefits? Not to mention, the only nursing union contract I've read (at my old job at East Central Health) capped the wages at $37/hr (10 years seniority). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 You're missing that many of the hours we work, for a normal job, would be paid at overtime rates (pay and a half), so when you consider that we make less than $10/h. well small point but a lot of the professional jobs that pay beyond 50,000 are salaried and don't have overtime but rather just a yearly amount Doesn't change the fact that comparatively residents earn not much per hour of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheech10 Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 May be news to you, but we do pay tuition in Ontario, albeit significantly less than medical school tuition. It's not news to me, having just finished 5 years of residency in Ontario. $350 a year is not even close to what tuition would cost. It's essentially just there to let you claim tuition tax credits on your income tax (which amount to ~$5500 for 2010) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 It's not news to me, having just finished 5 years of residency in Ontario. $350 a year is not even close to what tuition would cost. It's essentially just there to let you claim tuition tax credits on your income tax (which amount to ~$5500 for 2010) yeah I didn't know that! So what - you are considered a part time student for the entire year and get the textbox/living credits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheech10 Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 You're considered full time, will be issued a T2202A, and get to claim tuition and full time textbook/education credits for the 12 month academic year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 You're considered full time, will be issued a T2202A, and get to claim tuition and full time textbook/education credits for the 12 month academic year. ok...if you are considered a full time student, wouldn't your OSAP loan then be automatically still in non repayment status (?) If so what is the big deal about the OMA interest relief program during residency? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheech10 Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 That's a good point. I don't know why OSAP loans go into repayment. Maybe OSAP only recognizes certain programs? The tax credit is legit though; the T2202A issued by my program proves it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuma Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 well small point but a lot of the professional jobs that pay beyond 50,000 are salaried and don't have overtime but rather just a yearly amount Doesn't change the fact that comparatively residents earn not much per hour of course! My old job was salaried, and when I worked overtime, I didn`t get paid extra, but I got to bank those hours and take them off another day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ploughboy Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 As for the second argument: if call is the only opportunity for learning, then there is no need for residents and students to be at the hospital in the daytime since no learning is done at that time - a weak counterargument since residents are also expected to do the scut. We as a profession should streamline the scut so that residents can learn how to be doctors without endangering patients on call. We should also make medical school more focused on actually learning medicine so that when students finally get to residency they can operate at a sufficient level. This is a systematic problem that we cannot fix alone. Call certainly isn't the *only* time for learning, but for me at least it's possibly the best time. (Anecdotal evidence: I learned more last night at 03h00 about cold, acidotic and coagulopathic patients than I would have learned in a whole day's lecture on the same subject. Thank God for Level 1 infusers.) But I do agree that there is far too much scutwork in the current healthcare system, and that the scut almost always gets dumped on the residents because as far as the system is concerned our time has no cost attached to it. Also agree that the pre-clinical years as they currently exist aren't necessarily the best preparation for the practice of medicine (at least, the practice of medicine as an unsupervised junior resident at a teaching hospital in the middle of the night with nobody else around) I wish I knew how to fix that. The simulation boffins would say that everybody should spend more time in the sim lab, but even then it's not real. In a sim lab, the background noise that my brain is making sounds like "Don't do something stupid...don't look like a retard in front of your friends", whereas in a real situation in the back of my mind all I can think is "ohmigod he's gonna die and it's going to be my fault...my fault...my fault..." Two entirely different contexts in which to be operating! I really don't know if there's a way to learn how to do it aside from actually being thrown in and having to actually do it. I'm certainly not at my best when I've been awake for 20 hours, however. Are any of the residents reading this working in a system that has a "night float" resident? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ploughboy Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 How many attendings do you know who would say now that all their work in residency (and the crappy pay attributed to it) wasn't well worth it in the long run? Lots. We must interact with different attendings. Question for you in return - How many pre-clinical medical students do you know who base their arguments on hypothetical post-hoc rationalizations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ploughboy Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 I feel like #12 shouldn't take up a whole lot of your time... Cheech already covered this so I won't belabour it, but that's easily an hour gone from your night. Not a big deal if you hadn't been working since early yesterday morning and if you didn't have 40 other patients on your list and if your pager didn't keep going off every couple of minutes and if the consults weren't piling up in the ED... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lactic Folly Posted April 3, 2011 Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 Are any of the residents reading this working in a system that has a "night float" resident? This article may be of interest: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21251429 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.