Dal selling med school spaces to Saudi Arabia

[novascotia2010]

I thought some of you would be interested in this article in the chronicle herald today:

 

 

 

Dal selling med school spaces to Saudi Arabia

 

By DAVID JACKSON Provincial Reporter

Sat, Mar 12 - 4:54 AM

The Dalhousie University medical school is selling spaces to Saudi Arabia as a way to generate money to make up for underfunding, the school’s dean says.

 

The 10 first-year seats became available as a result of a deal with New Brunswick that sees Dalhousie educating that province’s medical students in their home province via videoconferencing, Dr. Tom Marrie said Friday.

 

The seats couldn’t go to Nova Scotians because the provincial government is limiting the number of seats available to this province’s students at 63.

 

Under the deal with Saudi Arabia, which is close to be being finalized, the seats will go for $75,000 per student, per year, Marrie said.

 

In an internal memo sent to faculty, staff, residents and graduate students, Marrie said the new revenue is "critically important" after the loss of "significant funding from the Nova Scotia government" and rising costs caused by an accreditation problem.

 

"From my standpoint, we’re underfunded. We know what our costs are and our revenues are not equal to our costs," Marrie said in an interview.

 

The question of provincial funding for the medical school has been an issue for close to a year. The Health Department planned cutting $2.5-million from the school’s funding last year, or about eight per cent of its $33-million budget. The cut meant the school was only going to receive $540,000 from the department.

 

Health Minister Maureen MacDonald said at the time that the funding issue, which also involved the Education Department, was complex.

 

The province contributed another $1.4 million to the school last May, after officials from the two departments and Dalhousie formed a committee to look at the issue.

 

Consultant Bill Hogg, a former deputy finance minister, reported in August that the Health Department should pay another $700,000 for 2010-11.

 

The funding disagreement stemmed from how the province helped pay for seats added at the medical school since 2003.

 

A group of university and provincial officials have continued working on the funding issue for future years and they’re close to finishing their work, Marrie said.

 

"We’re at the stage where we can’t sustain any more cuts," he said. "At the moment, we’re trying to finalize this funding study and see how government will respond."

 

Health Minister Maureen MacDonald said she wants to see what that working group says about funding before commenting on whether money from the province is adequate.

 

The province last month announced a four-per cent funding cut to universities.

 

MacDonald said a physician resource study is in the works to help determine how many doctors the province needs, and that’s the type of work that should be done before allowing more Nova Scotians into the school.

 

"Because it’s very expensive to train physicians, it’s important that we not run off half-cocked, I guess, (and) invest a lot of money into even more seats at the medical school," she said.

 

Both opposition leaders accused the Dexter government of poor management.

 

Liberal Leader Stephen McNeil said there are lots of areas of the province without enough family doctors. He said having the province cover medical students’ tuition in exchange for five years working in such areas after graduation would be a better use of taxpayers’ money than spending $8 million on paving equipment.

 

"Here we are educating doctors for Saudi Arabia and not educating doctors for the chronic shortage all across this province," McNeil said.

 

Progressive Conservative Leader Jamie Baillie said the government should have had a health human resource plan done a while ago.

 

"Until government gets off its duff and finishes the job it was elected to do of properly managing our health human resources, the medical school is forced to take these kinds of steps," Baillie said.

 

Marrie said the school has a good relationship with Saudi Arabia on residencies, and through casual conversation, the idea of them using the first-year medical seats came up. He said more doctors are needed in Saudi Arabia because that country is expanding its medical services.

 

He said the students would do their residencies in their home country. The school will interview 30 candidates for the 10 seats.

 

Link: http://www.thechronicleherald.ca/Metro/1232682.html

[neuronix]

75,000? I'm willing to pay that (it's a lot, i know, but really, Wayne State costs 60,000 a year and I'm willing to go there as well - Just need another LOC i suppose). I'm also actually willing to base my life in the maritimes. Why doesn't Dal just raise tuition to OOP students (make it around 20,000 a year - sort of like ontario schools)? Or even raise tuition for all applicants and defer the need for this selling of seats to foreign nationals.

 

I believe there is quite a bit more politics and other incentives involved - we just probably don't know about them.

[w8kg6]

This email was sent out to the Dalhousie medicine students the other day. There's nothing sensitive in there, so I'm not breaking any confidentiality in sending it your way, but it's just as a means of clarifying what was said in the already posted news article. It's important to note that these students already have degrees from North American school (I think they may have even needed graduate degrees), and won't be competing against any IP or OOP applicants.

 

Here is the email (apologies for the formatting):

 

As a follow up to my meeting with members of your executive yesterday, I want to advise you

that we are proceeding with an admissions process that will see 10 qualified Saudi Arabian

students join the Halifax-based undergraduate program this fall in Med 1.

 

When DMNB opened last fall, the seats allocated to New Brunswick students shifted from Halifax

to Saint John. That left the undergraduate program in Halifax able to accommodate 10 more

students.

 

We expect to interview 30 candidates for the 10 new seats available. These students will be

subject to the same admissions and performance standards that you are expected to meet.

 

These are unsubsidized seats so the Saudi students will be paying the full cost of their training.

 

We need this revenue to help maintain current operations. We have experienced a significant

decrease in our funding from the Nova Scotia government, while our ongoing annual expenses

have grown to address our accreditation problem.

 

Senior officials in the Nova Scotia Department of Education and the Department of Health and

Wellness have agreed in principle with our plan.

 

Opening these seats to qualified Nova Scotia students willing to pay the full cost of their

education would require a change in government policy.

 

Currently the government supports 63 Nova Scotia students in our undergraduate medical

education program. A health human resources study, however, is now under way to determine

how many physicians will be needed, and the outcome may influence the number of seats we

will have to train Nova Scotians.

 

Last October, the governments of Canada and Saudi Arabia signed a memorandum of agreement

on health care. Our initiative aligns well with that agreement.

 

Saudi Arabia can use physicians with Dalhousie training, especially now that the country has

plans to expand its health care system as a part of a $400 billion five-year development

program.

 

We have a good track record of providing residency training to qualified Saudi doctors who pay

its full cost. At the moment we have 26 Saudi Arabian students registered for

residency/fellowship training. Adding undergraduate education to that mix is relatively

straightforward.

 

On campus we have a lively Saudi Arabian community that can provide the new Saudi

undergraduates with good support. They will arrive speaking fluent English and with degrees

from North American universities, so we are confident they will fit in well with our student body.

They will not compete for residencies through the Canadian Resident Matching Service.

 

For all these reasons we think it makes great sense to expand our ties with Saudi Arabia by

offering medical training to their nationals at the undergraduate level. I hope you will consider

this a good decision too and make plans to give this new contingent of foreign students a

hospitable Maritime welcome this fall.

[That's_Life]

I would gladly pay that, too. There would be issues four years down the road when seeking a residency match in Canada, though...

 

I would shy away from asking OOP students to pay higher tuition fees. This wouldn't serve the purpose of the system... there's no guarantee that IP students won't leave the province, and that OOP students will leave.

 

Also, an additional 9*($20,000 - current tuition), (which is just a less subsidized form of the education), wouldn't even approach an unsubsidized 10*$75,000 per annum.

 

75,000? I'm willing to pay that (it's a lot, i know, but really, Wayne State costs 60,000 a year and I'm willing to go there as well - Just need another LOC i suppose). I'm also actually willing to base my life in the maritimes. Why doesn't Dal just raise tuition to OOP students (make it around 20,000 a year - sort of like ontario schools)? Or even raise tuition for all applicants and defer the need for this selling of seats to foreign nationals.

 

I believe there is quite a bit more politics and other incentives involved - we just probably don't know about them.

[A-Stark]

75,000? I'm willing to pay that (it's a lot, i know, but really, Wayne State costs 60,000 a year and I'm willing to go there as well - Just need another LOC i suppose). I'm also actually willing to base my life in the maritimes. Why doesn't Dal just raise tuition to OOP students (make it around 20,000 a year - sort of like ontario schools)? Or even raise tuition for all applicants and defer the need for this selling of seats to foreign nationals.

 

1) There are only 8-9 OOP students in a given class, so your plan would only net about $50,000 each year.

2) So, for these ten students, we would have additional gross revenue of $750,000. Let's say the net revenue is something on the order of $250,000 per year. Based on 63 NS seats, this would amount to an increase of $4,000 per year in tuition. Or $16,000 over four years. I'm not exactly sure how this is beneficial to anyone.

 

I believe there is quite a bit more politics and other incentives involved - we just probably don't know about them.

 

No there isn't. Do you have something other than vague assertions?

[proton]

 

 

 

No there isn't. Do you have something other than vague assertions?

 

How do you know?

[A-Stark]

Well for one thing I knew about this arrangement months ago since I've represented my class on the curriculum committee since Med 1.

[proton]

I was just asking. Besides, we're just discussing and hypothesizing here. Wondering is all we can do.

[Corie]

I'm just wondering how are students suppose to pay that? No bank would loan $300 K LoC.

 

If your family isn't rich won't you be left out in the dark?

[HBP]

It's probably only meant for the rich kids.

[Corie]

It's probably only meant for the rich kids.

 

Especially concidering the exchange factor and the average income in Saudi Arabia...

[neuronix]

I can tell you one thing. I feel bad for IP waitlisters #1 through #10. Also for those ranges of OOP waitlisters. Trying so hard to gain admittance into a Cdn medical school only to be beat out by people who are essentially buying their way in. I don't care how you look it and why it's happening - it SUCKS to be in that situation.

[HBP]

I can tell you one thing. I feel bad for IP waitlisters #1 through #10. Also for those ranges of OOP waitlisters. Trying so hard to gain admittance into a Cdn medical school only to be beat out by people who are essentially buying their way in. I don't care how you look it and why it's happening - it SUCKS to be in that situation.

 

They're not competing for the same spots...

 

Basically these are spots that are available, but have no funding, so nobody can use them except for someone who is funding privately AND doing residency outside of Canada.

 

An IP or OOP who wants to pay the 75k can't do it because the funding/resources aren't there for a residency position either.

[Corie]

I wonder what good is these spots for? Even to Saudi Arabian students, they'd have to find their way into residency somehow??

[That's_Life]

I wonder what good is these spots for? Even to Saudi Arabian students, they'd have to find their way into residency somehow??

 

They will be fine. A Canadian undergraduate medical education looks very attractive elsewhere.

[mavrik13]

While it doesn't seem "fair" that these spots are being offered to those from other countries when there are Canadians willing to take those spots, it would be a very slippery slope if Canadians could start 'buying' their way into medical school with unsubsidized spots. I don't agree with it, but it sounds like the spots were offered to all other provinces first.

[lmbp]

Somewhat ironic that many Canadians (latest CaRMS survey says 3500+) spend comparable amounts of money to go to medical school in foreign countries, mainly due to the fact that they were not granted a seat in the ultra-competitive Canadian system.

Perhaps this change in legislation to allow students to pay full tuition and attend Dalhousie IS what is needed. Although I suppose it is far easier to sign a business agreement than it is to re-write provincial policy...

 

I look forward to seeing the results from the study on physician demographics in NS.

[DocT7]

A-Stark:

Well for one thing I knew about this arrangement months ago since I've represented my class on the curriculum committee since Med 1.

 

Do you know why it's Saudi Arabia, and not just any international students?

(Not that I have anything against Saudi Arabian students, but just wondering if perhaps there are certain reasons that are causing Dal to seek applications from Saudi Arabia specifically, as opposed to opening it's doors to 10 international students -- maybe say one or two from a selection of countries, or even open to anyone (although, the potential for floods of applicants...))

[A-Stark]

I don't know exactly, but it probably follows from established relationships for residency training.

[lostintime]

Few other governments have that much money to pay for training their personnel or even they do, are unwilling.

[neuronix]

again, i understand the funding issues, and the residency spot issues as well.

 

you can't however, convince me that selling these spots is the right way to go. I don't care how you tilt it. It's both ethically dubious to have 30 students from ONE country compete against each other, and it's plain unfair to Canadian students.

 

If this was a private school, then I'd understand.

[lostintime]

Well they already do this for all residency spots essentially all across Canada, including highly coveted ones like GI etc. Just that it's a smaller population that cares about residency spots vs. med school spots. I don't think it makes it any more right to do this for residency spots vs. med spots.

 

They're also taking up resources and learning opportunities of Canadian residents who are training and they will get the hell out of the country once their training is done. So I'm not sure that in the long-term, it's actually helping the system with the temporary $$ in if these trainees aren't giong to stay for good.

[HBP]

^ They're not doing their residency in Canada.

[lostintime]

They're not but a bunch of other Saudi Arabian trainees are. If you actually read through my message.

[w8kg6]

I think the central problem here that a lot of people are getting hung up on is confusion between capacity and availability. Although Dal has the CAPACITY to take on 10 more Canadian students, the funding simply isn't there for them to do so. It wouldn't be beneficial for a Canadian student to take these spots even if it were a possibility to pay the full, unsubsidized 75K/yr, because there isn't funding at the other end either for residency training. In short, the cost of training a doctor in Canada isn't 300K... it's closer to one million. In Canada, only the very rich would have the means to pour one million dollars into a single person's education, and this would make the seats exclusive to the wealthy classes of Canadian society. It isn't a sound alternative.

 

Although these seats are UNAVAILABLE to Canadian students, that doesn't mean they should go unfilled. Imagine a fruit vendor is only able to sell 90% of his fruit in his neighborhood, but has the opportunity the sell the other 10% in a neighboring city. It makes sense for him to make use of that opportunity. I realize that this analogy falls short in one important way, as with Canadian med schools, there is more than enough DEMAND to fill this last 10%, but as mentioned above, these seats are not available/accessible. This disconnect is something that falls far outside of Dalhousie's realm of influence.

 

Concerning being ethically dubious, I'm not sure how one can feel this way. The fact is that, to some degree, Dalhousie must behave as a business if it wishes to remain fiscally stable. The commodity that this institution sells is a top notch, world class education, and it is worth every penny. That being said, however, if a business is not able to meet its capacity in any given region (whether that be due to lack of availability or demand (the latter is much more common and easy to grasp)), does it not make sense for the institution to offer its wares or services to another region so that it is operating at full capacity? It's basic economics, and there's nothing unethical about it. I agree that it's unfortunate that the funding doesn't exist for more Canadian med students, and ideally I would truly like to see all available spots filled with qualified Canadian applicants... God knows they're not in short supply. The fact is, however, that this isn't currently a possibility, as the Canadian/NS government does not see it fit to purchase all that Dal has to offer, so Dal must go elsewhere to meet its bottom line. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

In short, don't get confused between availability and capacity. Just because there is adequate demand (which there is) doesn't mean the entire capacity is available (it's not). Dal's not holding the bag here, and no wrongdoings have transpired.