Dal selling med school spaces to Saudi Arabia

[DragonX]

Also, as you might be able to see from the conversation so far, the Saudi government is subsidizing these seats (likely quite heavily). If they were open to all international students, no government subsidies would be in place, and the seats would only be accessible to the extremely wealthy. You have to choose between if you're going to make them available to everyone from one country, or the super-rich people of the entire world.

 

I think the right choice was made.

 

Who said no other government are willing to sponser their citizens?

[w8kg6]

Who said no other government are willing to sponser their citizens?

 

Imagine the logistics of this. You have 10 seats, and you open it up to all international students. You will be interviewing Americans, Malaysians, Chinese, Filipinos, Nigerians... Of the 30 that you interview, at best 3 will be from the same country. These successful applicants would then have to go to their own governments to petition them for funding after the fact of being accepted. The governments will then have to handle it on a case by case basis, since no pre-existing funding program exists, and there will almost certainly be international students from countries who can't secure the funds...

 

It simply isn't possible to offer a med seat to a person if the funding hasn't already been secured. To secure this funding, you have to have a deal set up with a foreign government (in this case, Saudi Arabia) before the interviews even occur. Otherwise it's a logistical and bureaucratic nightmare.

[war485]

I hope Dal is looking into/considering long term effects. This was on the local news yesterday and it is not being looked at favorably by the public. Kinda hope Dal doesn't continue this.

[thehumanmacbook]

I hope Dal is looking into/considering long term effects. This was on the local news yesterday and it is not being looked at favorably by the public. Kinda hope Dal doesn't continue this.

 

Do you have a link?

[DocT7]

I hope Dal is looking into/considering long term effects. This was on the local news yesterday and it is not being looked at favorably by the public. Kinda hope Dal doesn't continue this.

 

I've seen this everywhere - including my small campus newspaper from a small University in Ontario. It's been in the Globe and Mail and the National Post. (just search for links).

 

The international students at my small university in ontario are also up in arms about it as "exploitation of international students" -- so even those not even remotely interested or connected to medical schools are also catching the buzz... Interesting, that's for sure!

[gb35]

The international students at my small university in ontario are also up in arms about it as "exploitation of international students"

 

Isn't it the Saudi government who is paying?

[gouldj7]

I hope Dal is looking into/considering long term effects. This was on the local news yesterday and it is not being looked at favorably by the public. Kinda hope Dal doesn't continue this.

 

Who is the "public" your referring to. your everyday Joe?

 

So the problem lies in the fact that the "public" must not understand how subsidies work.

Being upset about the loss of 10 seats that could be available to future doctors that could actual serve this area is reasonable. But it doesn't seem like anyone is comprehending the situation. There is no scenario where Canadians get those seats without governmental $$$$$$$. So here's to hoping the "public" turns their attention to their provincial government and not the institution.

[war485]

Do you have a link?

 

I unfortunately don't have a link; it was on the tele on CTV Local News (channel 5 for those who don't have cable like me). Couldn't find a link to it online.

 

And by the public, yeah I meant the regular folks. It didn't sound like they directed their discontent at any particular direction just yet.

[gouldj7]

And by the public, yeah I meant the regular folks. It didn't sound like they directed their discontent at any particular direction just yet.

 

Yea. What I was getting at is that I feel as though the general public is not knowledgable enough about what's happening - and more specifically how the process actually works. The general public is going to take this at first glance and get upset at whats happening without considering the reasoning behind it.

 

I can't say I have been following it too heavily - with the exception of that first article released. How is the media portraying it?

[HBP]

The public has a right to be upset. At the government though, not at Dalhousie. The government should recognize the doctor shortage and increase funding.

[HBP]

1) These students aren't doing their residency in Canada. There is absolutely no expense to Canada, or taxpayers.

 

2) Benefit: Dalhousie gets money by selling seats that would otherwise go unfilled. They ensure they can stay afloat. Good thing for the rest of the students at Dalhousie.

 

3) Countering your point of taking up learning spaces: before Dal had the UNB satellite campus, they had more students at Dalhousie.

 

4) Blame the NS government. But the NS government feels it needs to do research before it determines if they need more doctors. You can't blame them that much, everything needs to be supported by evidence. Perhaps if they find out by next year that they need more, they will provide the funding.

 

5) This does not show that Canada supports the lack of female rights in Saudi. That's just absurd.

[NS87]

 

Not to mention that this move shows underlying support for the severely despotic society of Saudi Arabia, where women have approximately zero rights.

 

Please don't make comments about things you don't understand, don't make generalizations, and CERTAINLY don't let the media poison your mind with such extreme thoughts. If you're looking to pursue a career in medicine, the least you can do is keep an open mind.

[mavrik13]

1) These students aren't doing their residency in Canada. There is absolutely no expense to Canada, or taxpayers.

 

2) Benefit: Dalhousie gets money by selling seats that would otherwise go unfilled. They ensure they can stay afloat. Good thing for the rest of the students at Dalhousie.

 

3) Countering your point of taking up learning spaces: before Dal had the UNB satellite campus, they had more students at Dalhousie.

 

4) Blame the NS government. But the NS government feels it needs to do research before it determines if they need more doctors. You can't blame them that much, everything needs to be supported by evidence. Perhaps if they find out by next year that they need more, they will provide the funding.

 

5) This does not show that Canada supports the lack of female rights in Saudi. That's just absurd.

 

+1 - very good response(s) to a post so uninformed it was comical.

[Guest BluePin]

Please don't make comments about things you don't understand, don't make generalizations, and CERTAINLY don't let the media poison your mind with such extreme thoughts. If you're looking to pursue a career in medicine, the least you can do is keep an open mind.

 

What proportion of Dal's incoming Saudi students, or Canada's current crop of Saudi residents, is/will be female?

[Madz25]

1) These students aren't doing their residency in Canada. There is absolutely no expense to Canada, or taxpayers.

 

2) Benefit: Dalhousie gets money by selling seats that would otherwise go unfilled. They ensure they can stay afloat. Good thing for the rest of the students at Dalhousie.

 

3) Countering your point of taking up learning spaces: before Dal had the UNB satellite campus, they had more students at Dalhousie.

 

4) Blame the NS government. But the NS government feels it needs to do research before it determines if they need more doctors. You can't blame them that much, everything needs to be supported by evidence. Perhaps if they find out by next year that they need more, they will provide the funding.

 

5) This does not show that Canada supports the lack of female rights in Saudi. That's just absurd.

 

The only thing that I would be concerned about with adding more students in Halifax along with the UNB campus is clerkship. Dal sends students to various places in NB to do core clerkship rotations as there are not enough placements in NS. With the added UNB campus, the NB spots are not available to the students studying in Halifax (I'm assuming the UNB students will go to SJ, Fredericton, and Moncton for their rotations). If they add on more seats in Halifax, I worry that finding placements will be difficult for the NS students and as well, the quality of clerkship experience will be limited with more students and less exposure.

[A-Stark]

My understanding is that overall there will be more spaces available in NB as things develop. The trick is that NB also offers clerkship rotations to MUN students, so there will undoubtedly be some... finessing to do. I think the capacity is there already; what may happen is that students become less likely to get their first choices for some rotations. Sure neurosurg and cardiac will always have room available

[Madz25]

My understanding is that overall there will be more spaces available in NB as things develop. The trick is that NB also offers clerkship rotations to MUN students, so there will undoubtedly be some... finessing to do. I think the capacity is there already; what may happen is that students become less likely to get their first choices for some rotations. Sure neurosurg and cardiac will always have room available

 

well, i hope you're right. i know there was some difficulty finding spots for all the students in my class, and we were only 94 with a few hand-me-downs from upper year classes. also, dont forget the malaysian students that come to dal for clerkship every year.

[DubZteR]

I've been following this thread for over a month now and was really disappointed when I first read about this .....

 

There hasn't been much in the way of an official response from the overall medical student body @ Dal it seems. Is there any talks about organizing something more official from the student body either to support or to prevent this from happening?

 

Personally I don't think this is the way to go to make up for the money the school needs.

[DubZteR]

Has there been an update on this from the CFMS?

[DubZteR]

Please don't make comments about things you don't understand, don't make generalizations, and CERTAINLY don't let the media poison your mind with such extreme thoughts. If you're looking to pursue a career in medicine, the least you can do is keep an open mind.

 

so are you saying that women have similar rights in Saudi Arabia as they do here in Canada?

 

You can't even enter Mecca unless you show proof that you're "muslim" ... (not that I would ever want to visit there!)

[DubZteR]

We should not allow any Saudi citizens to have their med school and residency spots bought for them by their home country. Period.

 

While I don't support the idea of Canadians being able to buy their way into medical school in Canada, I would much rather see Canadian citizens provided with the opportunity to so instead of allowing foreign governments to benefit from our resources here.

[thehumanmacbook]

While I don't support the idea of Canadians being able to buy their way into medical school in Canada, I would much rather see Canadian citizens provided with the opportunity to so instead of allowing foreign governments to benefit from our resources here.

 

Might cause some debate about the appropriateness of someone who's Canadian and rich enough to pay for med school to be able to get in and avoid the competition...I think that's why they opened it internationally

[w8kg6]

I've been following this thread for over a month now and was really disappointed when I first read about this .....

 

There hasn't been much in the way of an official response from the overall medical student body @ Dal it seems. Is there any talks about organizing something more official from the student body either to support or to prevent this from happening?

 

Personally I don't think this is the way to go to make up for the money the school needs.

 

The reason there hasn't been much of an outcry from the student body is that we don't think one is completely necessary. Currently, in the absence of any protest, this deal is poised to go through (or at least won't get hung up on anything that the students control). From the inside, it doesn't look like that big of a deal, so we aren't really doing anything to fight against it. Past posts have called to attention the possibility of not having enough clerkship seats, but I'm sure this angle has been covered by the UGME office. Given the transition that is currently happening into New Brunswick to get DalMed students into other sites for clerkship (Mirimachi is an excellent example), there is recent experience about expansion, even if any is necessary.

 

All bases are covered, and it won't really affect us that much. We're just not that concerned about it, and many of us agree that this is an important step for Dalhousie, if only from a fiscal standpoint.

[DubZteR]

1) These students aren't doing their residency in Canada. There is absolutely no expense to Canada, or taxpayers.

 

I completely disagree with you that there is no expense to Canada and its citizens. I've worked with a few Saudi residents and for an unusually large proportion of them, it's very easy to spot the culture difference during their interactions with patients which often translates to sub-standard care. They have a hard time understanding the diversity in our country and ultimately how medicine is practiced here in Canada.

 

2) Benefit: Dalhousie gets money by selling seats that would otherwise go unfilled. They ensure they can stay afloat. Good thing for the rest of the students at Dalhousie.

 

These seats would not go unfilled if they also allowed Canadians citizens the same opportunity before looking elsewhere.

[DubZteR]

Might cause some debate about the appropriateness of someone who's Canadian and rich enough to pay for med school to be able to get in and avoid the competition...I think that's why they opened it internationally

 

Definitely agree that there would be a HUGE amount of debate if they did that, but the alternative ... allowing foreign governments to buy these seats is not without debate.

 

To me, the logic isn't there to allow SA citizens into our medical schools when our own citizens can't even get in. We need to protect the interest of our own citizens and country first and foremost before looking abroad to help others.