Dal selling med school spaces to Saudi Arabia

[HBP]

I completely disagree with you that there is no expense to Canada and its citizens. I've worked with a few Saudi residents and for an unusually large proportion of them, it's very easy to spot the culture difference during their interactions with patients which often translates to sub-standard care. They have a hard time understanding the diversity in our country and ultimately how medicine is practiced here in Canada.

 

 

 

These seats would not go unfilled if they also allowed Canadians citizens the same opportunity before looking elsewhere.

 

But you're not really understanding the scenario. These students aren't going to be doing their residency here. They also can't allow Canadians the same opportunity, since the Canadians would need to do their residency here (and the funding + spots aren't there--arguably).

[DubZteR]

The reason there hasn't been much of an outcry from the student body is that we don't think one is completely necessary. Currently, in the absence of any protest, this deal is poised to go through (or at least won't get hung up on anything that the students control). From the inside, it doesn't look like that big of a deal, so we aren't really doing anything to fight against it. Past posts have called to attention the possibility of not having enough clerkship seats, but I'm sure this angle has been covered by the UGME office. Given the transition that is currently happening into New Brunswick to get DalMed students into other sites for clerkship (Mirimachi is an excellent example), there is recent experience about expansion, even if any is necessary.

 

All bases are covered, and it won't really affect us that much. We're just not that concerned about it, and many of us agree that this is an important step for Dalhousie, if only from a fiscal standpoint.

 

Well it would definitely be an "important" step for Dal from a fiscal standpoint as your Dean, Thomas Marrie has made it clear in the following states issued to media: “We’ve got to find a way to run the place ”, “This is one of those ways. We just need this money to function.”

 

What is sad for me to see ... is that Dal is taking the easy way out at the expense of CAD citizens rather than seek other opportunities to benefit our citizens. Rather than except this money from SA governments, they could have attempted to reach out to CAD philanthropists first, held fundraising campaigns etc to raise the money that would be needed ... if they didn't want to allow Canadian citizens to directly fund the spots themselves.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I fully respect that, but it's disappointing from the overall tone in your post ... to see a lack of current Dal med students turning a cold shoulder once they realize this isn't going to affect "them" (ie. clerkship issues) .... instead of advocating for the younger generation of Canadians who are desperately and increasingly failing to make it into Canadian medical schools.

 

10 spots may not seem like a lot to someone who is already in .. but even one spot is too many for the thousands of Canadians out there with the credentials and are waiting for the chance to start med school in Canada and put back into the health care system they grew up in.

[DubZteR]

But you're not really understanding the scenario. These students aren't going to be doing their residency here. They also can't allow Canadians the same opportunity, since the Canadians would need to do their residency here (and the funding + spots aren't there--arguably).

 

Yeah i read that these "students" would "return to SA" upon completion of the Dal program to do their residency but in all honesty, when you have almost 700 Saudi physicians that are currently active trainees in residency programs in Canada, and this number is expected to keep growing, I have a hard time believing that these students who are "Canadian" educated, would willingly return to SA for residency.

 

I also don't support the idea of the SA government buying residency spots here, when US citizens can't even apply to CaRMs. To give you an example, Rad Onc will not have anymore IMG spots starting with this year's CaRMs but yet they may allow the SA government to "buy" residency spots. Right now it seems at my program they have allowed the SA government to "buy" a rad onc spot every 4 yrs but I'm hoping this will change!

[mavrik13]

It is easy to say that we should offer these seats to Canadians willing to pay the full unsubsidized tuition. However, under Canadian law, this is impossible to do - Canadian seats need to be funded by our government (I don't necessarily agree with this, but this prevents two-teir medical training and a potential surplus of doctors without increasing residency spots. The bottom line is that Dal can't do it). The flak from this move shouldn't fall on Dal (they have offered these spots to other Canadian provinces, with no bites), but rather the provincial governments who are unwilling to spend the extra money on the training positions. Dal has done a poor job handling the media on this issue, and the general public (of those who have heard of this issue) are finding Dal at fault.

 

As someone who currently falls under the faculty of medicine at Dal, the current budget shortfall is serious. Even with tuition increases (potentially as high as 10%), and these 10 Saudi students... every department under the faculty of medicine has been asked to cut a significant portion of their budget (~10%). That goes beyond cutting expendables... that means jobs will be lost. Even though $750,000 doesn't sound like a lot, that source of funding will allow for numerous jobs to be kept at the university that otherwise would be cut (and when they face a funding shortfall, they don't cut jobs from the top).

 

As a current Dal student and incoming Dal Meds student, I'm ok with this move. It might mean more traveling for our clerkship, but the bottom line is dollars and cents. We need the funding. Most importantly (to me), these individuals won't be competing against us when it comes to CaRMS.

[DubZteR]

It is easy to say that we should offer these seats to Canadians willing to pay the full unsubsidized tuition. However, under Canadian law, this is impossible to do - Canadian seats need to be funded by our government (I don't necessarily agree with this, but this prevents two-teir medical training and a potential surplus of doctors without increasing residency spots. The bottom line is that Dal can't do it). The flak from this move shouldn't fall on Dal (they have offered these spots to other Canadian provinces, with no bites), but rather the provincial governments who are unwilling to spend the extra money on the training positions. Dal has done a poor job handling the media on this issue, and the general public (of those who have heard of this issue) are finding Dal at fault.

 

Allowing a foreign government to come into our country and buy medical school seats is creating a two-tier system of medical education. It's irrelevant who's doing the purchasing (individual vs. foreign government) as you've now introduced another "tier" whereby entrance to medical school in Canada can be achieved by means other than "Canadian government" funding.

 

I'm unclear from your post if are you saying that under Canadian law, medical schools are not allowed to directly fund their own seats with their own money if they choose do so? or if it is private citizens who are unable to fund their own seats with their own money?

 

I still feel Dal has not fully explored all options available that would benefit our Canadian students.

 

As I pointed out, there are alternatives that have not been exhausted (to my knowledge). Hospitals and universities use annual fundraising campaigns all the time to generate huge amounts of revenue.

 

As a current Dal student and incoming Dal Meds student, I'm ok with this move. It might mean more traveling for our clerkship, but the bottom line is dollars and cents. We need the funding. Most importantly (to me), these individuals won't be competing against us when it comes to CaRMS.

 

Actually they may .... 4 years is plenty of time to become a CAD citizen/PR and enter the CMG pool by the time CaRMs rolls around.

 

The senior Saudi resident in our program has no intention of returning to SA after they are finished here. Many of these SA residents do find ways to stay in Canada.

[GGGSaint]

Allowing a foreign government to come into our country and buy medical school seats is creating a two-tier system of medical education. It's irrelevant who's doing the purchasing (individual vs. foreign government) as you've now introduced another "tier" whereby entrance to medical school in Canada can be achieved by means other than "Canadian government" funding.

 

I'm unclear from your post if are you saying that under Canadian law, medical schools are not allowed to directly fund their own seats with their own money if they choose do so? or if it is private citizens who are unable to fund their own seats with their own money?

 

I still feel Dal has not fully explored all options available that would benefit our Canadian students.

 

As I pointed out, there are alternatives that have not been exhausted (to my knowledge). Hospitals and universities use annual fundraising campaigns all the time to generate huge amounts of revenue.

 

 

 

Actually they may .... 4 years is plenty of time to become a CAD citizen/PR and enter the CMG pool by the time CaRMs rolls around.

 

The senior Saudi resident in our program has no intention of returning to SA after they are finished here. Many of these SA residents do find ways to stay in Canada.

 

Excellent posts DubZteR, I agree with your outlook on the issue. The whole issue is simply sad. Not much we can do about it once Dal made the decision though, right? No one wants to contemplate the SA students staying in Canada and competing with CMG's for residency spots/jobs later on but that's more than a theory as you pointed out, it's reality.

[thehumanmacbook]

Allowing a foreign government to come into our country and buy medical school seats is creating a two-tier system of medical education. It's irrelevant who's doing the purchasing (individual vs. foreign government) as you've now introduced another "tier" whereby entrance to medical school in Canada can be achieved by means other than "Canadian government" funding.

 

I'm unclear from your post if are you saying that under Canadian law, medical schools are not allowed to directly fund their own seats with their own money if they choose do so? or if it is private citizens who are unable to fund their own seats with their own money?

 

I still feel Dal has not fully explored all options available that would benefit our Canadian students.

 

As I pointed out, there are alternatives that have not been exhausted (to my knowledge). Hospitals and universities use annual fundraising campaigns all the time to generate huge amounts of revenue.

 

 

 

Actually they may .... 4 years is plenty of time to become a CAD citizen/PR and enter the CMG pool by the time CaRMs rolls around.

 

The senior Saudi resident in our program has no intention of returning to SA after they are finished here. Many of these SA residents do find ways to stay in Canada.

 

I think that it's the latter with regards to the law question

[mavrik13]

Allowing a foreign government to come into our country and buy medical school seats is creating a two-tier system of medical education. It's irrelevant who's doing the purchasing (individual vs. foreign government) as you've now introduced another "tier" whereby entrance to medical school in Canada can be achieved by means other than "Canadian government" funding.

 

We currently operate in a multi-teir system, based on location of residency. When I mentioned two-teir, I was referring to payment by Canadians for Canadian spots. I don't want a two-teir system in this sense, where you could be rejected to a subsidized spot, but be told you could attend if you paid the whole 75k/year bill on your own.

 

If we started to allow this, other schools which have the capacity to train more MD's (but not the gov't funding) could follow suit. Soon, we could be in a situation where we would be pumping out more MD's than we have residency spots for. No thanks. We already have stiff competition for CMG spots, and more than enough IMG's who want to come to Canada. We don't have the funding at the residency level to start pumping out more MD's at the undergrad level. In your field (Rad Onc), we have even decreased the number of residency spots, in order to keep competition stiff (despite all literature pointing to a need for more Rad Onc's).

 

Dal is using its available capacity to train more doctors, but not impacting us CMG's when it comes to residency positions.

 

I don't pretend to know how Saudi residency spots work, but that seems irrelevant to this discussion (if they want to stay post-residency, where their own government paid for the position... that is fine by me). From what I know about this arrangement (and I have tried to keep on top of it, as I am one who is directly impacted by this situation), I see no 'down side' for Canadians, other than slightly larger classes (which have been this size before, prior to DMNB), and perhaps having to travel slightly further for clerkship rotations. I have faith that these problems were considered in advance of this agreement.

 

I'm unclear from your post if are you saying that under Canadian law, medical schools are not allowed to directly fund their own seats with their own money if they choose do so? or if it is private citizens who are unable to fund their own seats with their own money?

 

I can't provide a reference to this , but when this issue initially came up, I read in a statement by Dalhousie Medical school that said that under current Canadian law, they cannot offer these unsubsidized seats to Canadians. They were very clear about this, and there was no room for discussion.

 

I would speculate this is due to controlling the flow of physician training - while they could, in theory, provide these spots to Canadians... who would fund their residency positions? (which cost a lot more than the undergrad MD degree). Would Canadians be willing to spend 75k per year to train at Dalhousie, only to be considered an IMG (like these Saudi resdients?) Is it fair to ask people to put themselves in this position (go 400k into debt only to have a ~15% chance of matching into anything in Canada?)

 

Actually they may .... 4 years is plenty of time to become a CAD citizen/PR and enter the CMG pool by the time CaRMs rolls around.

 

It has been explicitly stated that these individuals will be returning to Saudi Arabia for their residency. The Saudi government is paying for these spots, not the individual students (they may pay some portion, but they are not footing the whole 75k bill themselves). I would imagine there is a RoS agreement involved. Either way, they will not be entering the CMG pool for residency positions. There would be an uproar from Canadians who are now studying in the Carribean/Europe/etc who are considered IMG's if these Saudi's were considered CMG's ahead of them.

 

I don't mean to be argumentative, and I appreciate your passion for preserving Canadian medical school spots for Canadians (I would be the first in line to tell the NS government to open these 10 seats to NS residents instead of Saudi residents). However, there are a lot of misconceptions about this program, how it will be funded, and the impact on the Dal CMG 2015 class.

[A-Stark]

Allowing a foreign government to come into our country and buy medical school seats is creating a two-tier system of medical education. It's irrelevant who's doing the purchasing (individual vs. foreign government) as you've now introduced another "tier" whereby entrance to medical school in Canada can be achieved by means other than "Canadian government" funding.

 

I'm unclear from your post if are you saying that under Canadian law, medical schools are not allowed to directly fund their own seats with their own money if they choose do so? or if it is private citizens who are unable to fund their own seats with their own money?

 

Well, it's grossly inequitable for one thing. Banks do not offer loans sufficient to cover costs for unfunded students, and there are very few who could afford such expense. I do not think there is any law to that effect exactly, but the province regulates tuition for Canadian students, so it would require provincial assent to introduce an unfunded tier for them.

 

I still feel Dal has not fully explored all options available that would benefit our Canadian students.

 

I find that ridiculously presumptuous coming from someone has no first hand knowledge whatsoever of Dal's situation.

[w8kg6]

Well it would definitely be an "important" step for Dal from a fiscal standpoint as your Dean, Thomas Marrie has made it clear in the following states issued to media: “We’ve got to find a way to run the place ”, “This is one of those ways. We just need this money to function.”

 

What is sad for me to see ... is that Dal is taking the easy way out at the expense of CAD citizens rather than seek other opportunities to benefit our citizens. Rather than except this money from SA governments, they could have attempted to reach out to CAD philanthropists first, held fundraising campaigns etc to raise the money that would be needed ... if they didn't want to allow Canadian citizens to directly fund the spots themselves.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I fully respect that, but it's disappointing from the overall tone in your post ... to see a lack of current Dal med students turning a cold shoulder once they realize this isn't going to affect "them" (ie. clerkship issues) .... instead of advocating for the younger generation of Canadians who are desperately and increasingly failing to make it into Canadian medical schools.

 

10 spots may not seem like a lot to someone who is already in .. but even one spot is too many for the thousands of Canadians out there with the credentials and are waiting for the chance to start med school in Canada and put back into the health care system they grew up in.

 

The overall tone in my post was meant to convey a sentiment that, from the inside, this deal doesn't look that bad. Madz25 played the devil's advocate and identified an issue that could POSSIBLY arise, but as I stated, Dalhousie has proven itself to possess the capacity to plan for these things. There's no way DMNB would have been so smooth had they lacked this foresight.

 

I agree that there are not enough seats to meet the demand the exists in the Canadian premed community, but to suggest that I can't appreciate the difference that 10 seats can make is presumptuous, and frankly a bit offending. I applied 3 times, and in my second application spent three months as first alternate for my application pool. I have EVERY idea of the difference that more seats can make. The thing is that it simply isn't a possibility in these circumstances. Dal offers the education, but the government pays for it. If the money's not there, then how is it Dal's responsibility to still offer this education? If a father stops paying the monthlies on a 16 year old's car, is the dealership in the wrong for not ponying up the cash or raising funds through philanthropy so they don't have to seek other buyers for the vehicle? No reasonable person can make that argument. The simple fact that the 16 year old is qualified does not entitle them to driving a car. I want to point out that I'm not trying to belittle the achievements of the many amazing applicants we have each year by drawing analogies to a teenager's car ownership, but the underlying core remains the same: Just because an entity provides a service, it is not its duty to give it for free, or at undue hardship to itself (especially when this hardship will in all likelihood not come to fruition and much more viable alternatives are present). It simply isn't the responsibility of an educational institution the ensure that the commodity they provide is subsidized. That duty falls elsewhere.

 

There is a group of people at fault here. The Canadian Government and the government of NS is passing up a remarkable opportunity to take advantage of homegrown potential. Dalhousie Medical School provides a medical education unequaled in Atlantic Canada, and to decide against reaping as many of the benefits this school provides is ludicrous. That being said, the board of governors of Dal is BOUND BY THEIR RESPONSIBILITY to remain solvent, which simply won't be a possibility if they don't make use of all their resources. Relying on the kindness of strangers is generally not a good idea, so philanthropy goes out the window (rightfully so). A country with an already established relationship with DalMed has offered a deal that will alleviate much of the stress that currently puts our school's future in jeopardy (at least to some extent), and we'd be foolish not to take it!

 

It's not the fact that the DalMed students who have posted here are actually in med school that makes them have no major issue with this deal... it's the fact that we're very familiar with the faculty culture and inner mechanics, and that we just don't think it's a bad idea.

[DubZteR]

We currently operate in a multi-teir system, based on location of residency.

 

Absolutely! .... and this is something I am trying to change ... at least with my program.

 

When I mentioned two-teir, I was referring to payment by Canadians for Canadian spots. I don't want a two-teir system in this sense, where you could be rejected to a subsidized spot, but be told you could attend if you paid the whole 75k/year bill on your own.

 

It seems a bit of a double standard to me if it's acceptable for you that foreign governments be allowed to buy spots in our medical schools thereby creating another tier ... but not ok with Canadians being able to do so.

 

I would feel for anyone if it ever came to a situation where there were offered the chance to attend med school but had to fork out the 75K, but if given the opportunity ... I think the majority of premeds and Canadians would agree with me that they would rather be in a situation where they were provided this "opportunity" instead of being deprived and handing that spot over to some random foreign national!

 

If we started to allow this, other schools which have the capacity to train more MD's (but not the gov't funding) could follow suit. Soon, we could be in a situation where we would be pumping out more MD's than we have residency spots for. No thanks. We already have stiff competition for CMG spots, and more than enough IMG's who want to come to Canada. We don't have the funding at the residency level to start pumping out more MD's at the undergrad level. In your field (Rad Onc), we have even decreased the number of residency spots, in order to keep competition stiff (despite all literature pointing to a need for more Rad Onc's).

 

The issue with fewer rad onc spots isn't related to decreased funding. It has everything to do with looking out for current trainees to ensure they get jobs (look at how badly the job situation is for other specialties). I am aware that all literature points to HUGE demands for rad oncs from now until 2020, but programs are taking a "better safe than sorry" approach. This is the exact same approach taken by derm and they have an excellent job market. It is this same mentality that I share when I say we have to look out for our own citizens and their interests first. This is why I feel strongly against what Dal is proposing.

 

Looking at data for each of the CaRMs matches within the last 4 years (2007-2011), there were 154, 121, 126 and 103 spots left over after the SECOND round! In terms of other schools adopting this approach, it would be unlikely at this point as who wants to create more work for themselves if they don't have to unless they were in the same financial predicament as Dal.

 

Even if we have a few other schools adopting this approach, based on the CaRMs data and taking into account enlarged class sizes at med schools across Canada, there would still be enough funded residency spots to train in a specialty.

 

Dal is using its available capacity to train more doctors, but not impacting us CMG's when it comes to residency positions.

 

I don't pretend to know how Saudi residency spots work, but that seems irrelevant to this discussion (if they want to stay post-residency, where their own government paid for the position... that is fine by me). From what I know about this arrangement (and I have tried to keep on top of it, as I am one who is directly impacted by this situation), I see no 'down side' for Canadians, other than slightly larger classes (which have been this size before, prior to DMNB), and perhaps having to travel slightly further for clerkship rotations. I have faith that these problems were considered in advance of this agreement.

 

It has been explicitly stated that these individuals will be returning to Saudi Arabia for their residency. The Saudi government is paying for these spots, not the individual students (they may pay some portion, but they are not footing the whole 75k bill themselves). I would imagine there is a RoS agreement involved. Either way, they will not be entering the CMG pool for residency positions. There would be an uproar from Canadians who are now studying in the Carribean/Europe/etc who are considered IMG's if these Saudi's were considered CMG's ahead of them.

 

 

I'm not talking about a situation where these SA grads would stay for residency and take up spots funded by their government. I'm talking about them competing with you directly for the CMG spots and being funded by our government. Like I said, 4 years is a long time to meet a Canadian, fall in love get married, become a CAD citizen and enter CaRMs as a CMG. They do have to sign RoS contracts with their governments prior to coming here for any kind of training but many defect and don't come back!

 

I can't provide a reference to this , but when this issue initially came up, I read in a statement by Dalhousie Medical school that said that under current Canadian law, they cannot offer these unsubsidized seats to Canadians. They were very clear about this, and there was no room for discussion.

 

I would speculate this is due to controlling the flow of physician training - while they could, in theory, provide these spots to Canadians... who would fund their residency positions? (which cost a lot more than the undergrad MD degree). Would Canadians be willing to spend 75k per year to train at Dalhousie, only to be considered an IMG (like these Saudi resdients?) Is it fair to ask people to put themselves in this position (go 400k into debt only to have a ~15% chance of matching into anything in Canada?)

 

I've e-mailed Dal regarding this law ... I'll let you know once I hear from them.

 

Just to clarify, if Canadians went to Dal then they would be considered CMGs not IMGs. Saudis that do residency here in Canada through SA funded residency spots are not considered IMGs. To be considered an IMG per CaRMs, you must also be a cad citizen/perm resident.

 

And yes .. I think it would be fair to offer Canadians this opportunity!

 

I don't mean to be argumentative, and I appreciate your passion for preserving Canadian medical school spots for Canadians (I would be the first in line to tell the NS government to open these 10 seats to NS residents instead of Saudi residents). However, there are a lot of misconceptions about this program, how it will be funded, and the impact on the Dal CMG 2015 class.

 

No worries ... we'll have to see what ends up happening!

[DubZteR]

Well, it's grossly inequitable for one thing. Banks do not offer loans sufficient to cover costs for unfunded students, and there are very few who could afford such expense. I do not think there is any law to that effect exactly, but the province regulates tuition for Canadian students, so it would require provincial assent to introduce an unfunded tier for them.

 

I beg to differ that what Dal is doing whereby they are planning on accepting 10 SA nationals and train them in public hospitals which are operated using public tax payer money to become physicians using our country's resources would be seen as even more "grossly inequitable" by the general Canadian public. In my experience, Canadians generally do not approve of having their tax dollars go towards benefiting other countries at their expense.

 

Banks are only one potential avenue to explore for funding. I didn't come from an affluent family and wasn't approved for any funding from CAD banks when I started med school at Stanford and I did just fine. The point being that there are other ways to finance a medical school education.

 

I find that ridiculously presumptuous coming from someone has no first hand knowledge whatsoever of Dal's situation.

 

Likewise, I feel it is just as ridiculously presumptuous for someone to believe that the only way to have "knowledge" of Dal's situation is to be involved first hand. I'm still waiting to hear back from Dal regarding some of the follow up questions I posed.

 

In the meantime, if you are aware of any campaigns Dal has launched to raise money specifically for this cause to help fund these spots directly so that an additional 10 Canadian students may attend medical school in Canada, rather than take the easy way out .... please fill me in!

[gb35]

In the meantime, if you are aware of any campaigns Dal has launched to raise money specifically for this cause to help fund these spots directly so that an additional 10 Canadian students may attend medical school in Canada, rather than take the easy way out .... please fill me in!

 

That's an issue to take up with the government, not Dal. Dal is just trying to balance the books. These students won't be allowed to compete for CaRMs spots, this was an explicit part of the deal.

 

More Canadians aren't getting trained unless the government decides to train them. In the meantime it's up to Dal to stay afloat financially.

[DubZteR]

Excellent posts DubZteR, I agree with your outlook on the issue. The whole issue is simply sad. Not much we can do about it once Dal made the decision though, right? No one wants to contemplate the SA students staying in Canada and competing with CMG's for residency spots/jobs later on but that's more than a theory as you pointed out, it's reality.

 

Thanks! Glad to know there are others who feel the same

[DubZteR]

That's an issue to take up with the government, not Dal. Dal is just trying to balance the books. These students won't be allowed to compete for CaRMs spots, this was an explicit part of the deal.

 

More Canadians aren't getting trained unless the government decides to train them. In the meantime it's up to Dal to stay afloat financially.

 

Someone please fill me in as I don't see how Dal could prevent these students from competing for CMG CaRMs spots if they become CAD citizens

 

I agree this issue needs to be addressed with the provincial government but saying that Dal has no other options to excise (except this one) in order to stay afloat is hard to justify.

[DubZteR]

 

I agree that there are not enough seats to meet the demand the exists in the Canadian premed community, but to suggest that I can't appreciate the difference that 10 seats can make is presumptuous, and frankly a bit offending. I applied 3 times, and in my second application spent three months as first alternate for my application pool. I have EVERY idea of the difference that more seats can make.

 

I can see how you could have found what I said offensive but rest assured my comment was not malicious and in no way directed at you! When I said "someone" I was referring to someone in the very general sense.

 

The thing is that it simply isn't a possibility in these circumstances. Dal offers the education, but the government pays for it. If the money's not there, then how is it Dal's responsibility to still offer this education?

 

To be clear, the government subsidizes a portion of your medical school education and the rest is paid by you through tuition ... so the government is not paying for your entire education. If you look at private models of education, there are many successful schools' who are able to provide this education.

 

There is a group of people at fault here. The Canadian Government and the government of NS is passing up a remarkable opportunity to take advantage of homegrown potential. Dalhousie Medical School provides a medical education unequaled in Atlantic Canada, and to decide against reaping as many of the benefits this school provides is ludicrous. That being said, the board of governors of Dal is BOUND BY THEIR RESPONSIBILITY to remain solvent, which simply won't be a possibility if they don't make use of all their resources. Relying on the kindness of strangers is generally not a good idea, so philanthropy goes out the window (rightfully so). A country with an already established relationship with DalMed has offered a deal that will alleviate much of the stress that currently puts our school's future in jeopardy (at least to some extent), and we'd be foolish not to take it!

 

I'm shocked that you feel relying on philanthropy is generally not a good idea when so many great things in Canada especially in healthcare could not have been possible without the generous financial support of individuals who believe in our country, our talent and are willing to help out to benefit other Canadians.

 

If a father stops paying the monthlies on a 16 year old's car, is the dealership in the wrong for not ponying up the cash or raising funds through philanthropy so they don't have to seek other buyers for the vehicle? No reasonable person can make that argument. The simple fact that the 16 year old is qualified does not entitle them to driving a car. I want to point out that I'm not trying to belittle the achievements of the many amazing applicants we have each year by drawing analogies to a teenager's car ownership, but the underlying core remains the same: Just because an entity provides a service, it is not its duty to give it for free, or at undue hardship to itself (especially when this hardship will in all likelihood not come to fruition and much more viable alternatives are present). It simply isn't the responsibility of an educational institution the ensure that the commodity they provide is subsidized. That duty falls elsewhere.

 

No one said anything about giving the education away for free! I definitely feel an educational institution has some responsibility to subsidize its students. Private schools do it all the time to attract the brightest students. Dal isn't a private school but as a public school, I would say they have an even bigger responsibility to their tax paying constituents.

 

I also, don't see the similarity in example given. Correct me if I'm off but it sounds you're using the 16 yo to be a med school applicant, the car to be the institution/medical school, driving a car to be analogous to going to medical school, the dad as the government and the car dealer which I might add is FOR profit business as analogous to the school/institution again? .... If that's the case then I'm just going to stop here....

[w8kg6]

What I was trying to point out in that post is that the fault does not lie with Dal. I do think that deciding not to send Canadian students to Dalhousie is a travesty, but although this is a terrible outcome, it falls outside of Dal's hands. The analogy I was using was centered on the role that the dealership plays in that scenario, and how that compares to Dal's current position... the rest was mostly irrelevant. Regardless of if Dal has CAPACITY to provide a service, it doesn't make it necessary for it to stick its neck out by turning down a sure deal and taking risks by pursuing nebulous philanthropic deals. Although selling these seats to SA is a far worse option than giving them to Canadian students, the choices that our government has made take that second option off the table before Dal even has a say. They can't be faulted for selling their commodity (a world-class education) to a no-risk buyer rather than "rely on the kindness of strangers". I stand by what I said earlier that it would be unwise for an entity to rely on philanthropy when a sure thing is readily available, especially when that entity finds itself in times of a fiscal emergency! It's a definite possibility that Dal could fund students through fundraising, but would this be appropriate, or does it go far beyond what Dal should be expected to do for prospective students under the current structure? I would argue that it's the latter.

 

The fact is that Dalhousie currently has an "out" on the situation the NS government has placed them in. Believe me, I'm painfully aware that the government doesn't pay for our entire education (my bank statement serves as an ever-present reminder), but our seats are HEAVILY subsidized... especially when residency is considered. There simply isn't any funding for 10 more Canadian students (even though I'm sure it could be found somewhere in the provincial budget), and because of this Dal has lost access to a critical income flow. Although fundraising might be able to overcome this shortfall, so far no philanthropists have materialized. Fortunately, a fair deal was found with the government of a country that already has a well established relationship with the Canadian medical education system, and this deal comes at no expense to the education of Dal's current or future Canadian students. We'd be foolish to not take it.

[Mourning Cloak]

Someone please fill me in as I don't see how Dal could prevent these students from competing for CMG CaRMs spots if they become CAD citizens

 

They are bound by ROS agreements. They are required to return to their home countries. And as far as sponsored Saudi residents go, they always do. Nobody ever stays.

 

I agree this issue needs to be addressed with the provincial government but saying that Dal has no other options to excise (except this one) in order to stay afloat is hard to justify.

 

See the post above.

[A-Stark]

I beg to differ that what Dal is doing whereby they are planning on accepting 10 SA nationals and train them in public hospitals which are operated using public tax payer money to become physicians using our country's resources would be seen as even more "grossly inequitable" by the general Canadian public. In my experience, Canadians generally do not approve of having their tax dollars go towards benefiting other countries at their expense.

 

Each student will be funded by Saudi Arabia to the tune of $75,000 per year -I'm hard pressed to see how public money will be funding their training, particularly since the entire point of the program is to make up for a budget shortfall. If funding were more adequate this wouldn't even be on the table.

 

Banks are only one potential avenue to explore for funding. I didn't come from an affluent family and wasn't approved for any funding from CAD banks when I started med school at Stanford and I did just fine. The point being that there are other ways to finance a medical school education.

 

And these ways would be...?

 

Likewise, I feel it is just as ridiculously presumptuous for someone to believe that the only way to have "knowledge" of Dal's situation is to be involved first hand. I'm still waiting to hear back from Dal regarding some of the follow up questions I posed.

 

Well, when you spend three years on committees regarding curriculum administration and development as I have, perhaps I will find this to be a relevant and reasonable response. I'm not clear on how your knowledge-gleaned-from-media-articles compares to first-hand knowledge.

 

In the meantime, if you are aware of any campaigns Dal has launched to raise money specifically for this cause to help fund these spots directly so that an additional 10 Canadian students may attend medical school in Canada, rather than take the easy way out .... please fill me in!

 

I am not specifically aware of such a campaign as this has come at a time of considerable curriculum redevelopment and the opening and construction of the Saint John campus. Funds have been tied up with these priorities. By most accounts, the arrangement in question is currently short term.

 

Regarding your unfounded concerns around these students somehow acquiring citizenship and competing in the first-round match for CMGs, I think you should research the lengthy process of applying for much less receiving permanent resident status, and the rather... contractual nature of ROS contracts.

[Guest BluePin]

I go back to my previous question: What percentage of the incoming group of Saudi students will be female?

 

If half, or even some, are female, great.

 

If none are, Dal is passing up the opportunity to influence an inequitable social system while still providing a valuable service to that society (arguably an even more valuable service if they are providing needed female doctors) and still reaping the financial benefit.

[DubZteR]

Each student will be funded by Saudi Arabia to the tune of $75,000 per year -I'm hard pressed to see how public money will be funding their training, particularly since the entire point of the program is to make up for a budget shortfall. If funding were more adequate this wouldn't even be on the table.

 

A medical education cannot occur in the absence of training in hospitals. In Canada, hospitals are funded by the public using tax dollars. When these students pay their tuition to Dal, they still use these resources to train as Dal does not have its own privately funded hospital. By using these public resources which do not belong to Dal, these students are in fact receiving training from public money. Think about all the members of the interdisciplinary health care team that are paid by public dollars (rather than by Dal) that would be involved in training these students.

 

I hope it has become more obvious to you now.

 

And these ways would be...?

 

Some things that come to mind from the school's perspective:

-reach out to alumni through dedicated giving

-reach out to the general local public through fundraising campaigns for support

-reach out to philanthropists (ie. donate large sum of money, in exchange for having a building named after yourself)

 

Most med schools already have variations of the above in place but it doesn't sound like Dal has been very responsive to their community in terms of asking for help which may be one of the main reasons why they're in such a bad predicament.

 

When I was a medical student, EVERY year, we would have class phon-a-thons among other numerous other charitable events to raise money for OUR SCHOOL, OUR CLASS and OUR COMMUNITY. Out of curiosity, can Dal med students fill me in if there are any such activities @ Dal?

 

Also, public schools in the states are light years ahead of Canada when it comes to how they have handled this funding issue. Public medical schools charge instate tuition and out-state (non-subsidized by the state government). I can't even fathom the thought of a US public med school taking the same nonsense approach that Dal is considering whereby allowing foreign nationals to "BUY SPOTS" .

 

Well, when you spend three years on committees regarding curriculum administration and development as I have, perhaps I will find this to be a relevant and reasonable response. I'm not clear on how your knowledge-gleaned-from-media-articles compares to first-hand knowledge.

 

I have been involved in MANY committees myself and received many recognitions for my work. I was chosen to serve on the LCME accreditation committee but had to back out last minute as I could not fit the travel commitments with my schedule at the time. Regarding what Dal is doing, I'm wondering if it would put their accreditation at further risk since they are currently on probation. Someone is going to say "I'm sure they've taken this into account" ... but you'd be surprised how many medicals don't before taking desperate measures.

 

I've also touched based with my colleagues at the LCME regarding what Dal is proposing.

 

Btw .. still no word from Dal. To give them the benefit of the doubt, it does state on their website, "Due to the extremely high volume of phone calls the office receives on a daily basis, if you have an enquiry it is highly recommended that you send an email to medicine.admissions@dal.ca" ..... Perhaps they are experiencing a "high volume" of e-mails as well.

 

I am not specifically aware of such a campaign as this has come at a time of considerable curriculum redevelopment and the opening and construction of the Saint John campus. Funds have been tied up with these priorities. By most accounts, the arrangement in question is currently short term.

 

I would not be surprised if such a campaign did not exist ......

 

Regarding your unfounded concerns around these students somehow acquiring citizenship and competing in the first-round match for CMGs, I think you should research the lengthy process of applying for much less receiving permanent resident status, and the rather... contractual nature of ROS contracts.

 

I think you should do your own research first because if you had done so, you would have known that Immigration Canada's service standard is to make a final decision within 12 months from the time a PR application is received at the Mississauga Case Processing Centre. I can tell you in over 50% of the cases it does not take 12 months. My friends who work in immigration offices say on average it takes 3-6 months to get a decision on your PR status application and once approved, a PR card in the mail in 4 weeks.

 

As you can see .. the processing time is rather quick contrary to your belief that it is a "LENGTHY" process. Add 12 months to this if you want your Canadian Citizenship after you marry a "Canadian".

 

There are no RoS contracts for Canadian PR/citizens who graduate from LCME medical schools.

[DubZteR]

They are bound by ROS agreements. They are required to return to their home countries. And as far as sponsored Saudi residents go, they always do. Nobody ever stays.

 

These SA students would have RoS agreements from SA but the residency spots funded by the SA government do not involve CaRMs. Besides, for CaRMs, RoS agreements only exist for IMGs (and even then not all provinces currently have RoS in place for IMGs). They are not bound by any RoS in place by Canada should these SA students become a Perm Resident or a Cad citizen. There is nothing in a RoS agreement that prevents someone from falling in love, getting married to a Canadian, becoming a perm res/citizen and in the process becoming a CMG for CaRMs.

 

From the Immigrations Canada website:

 

Family Class: Spouses, Common-Law Partners, Conjugal Partners and Dependent Children Overseas

 

It is our goal, in 80% of overseas applications, to make a final decision within 12 months from the time the application is received at the Mississauga Case Processing Centre.

 

Initial Permanent Resident Card

 

It is our goal, for 80% of new permanent residents, to send an initial permanent resident card within 40 business days from the time the confirmation of permanent resident form is completed at a port of entry or at a CIC-inland office.

 

I can tell you in over 50% of the cases it does not take 12 months. My friends who work in immigration offices say on average it takes 3-6 months to get a decision on your PR status application and once approved, a PR card in the mail in 4 weeks.

 

As you can see .. the processing time is rather quick. Add 12 months to this if you want your Canadian Citizenship after you marry a "Canadian".

 

Regarding your comment about nobody ever stays .. I've seen it happen several times ... so don't you dare tell me "nobody ever stays".

[DubZteR]

What I was trying to point out in that post is that the fault does not lie with Dal. I do think that deciding not to send Canadian students to Dalhousie is a travesty, but although this is a terrible outcome, it falls outside of Dal's hands. The analogy I was using was centered on the role that the dealership plays in that scenario, and how that compares to Dal's current position... the rest was mostly irrelevant. Regardless of if Dal has CAPACITY to provide a service, it doesn't make it necessary for it to stick its neck out by turning down a sure deal and taking risks by pursuing nebulous philanthropic deals. Although selling these seats to SA is a far worse option than giving them to Canadian students, the choices that our government has made take that second option off the table before Dal even has a say. They can't be faulted for selling their commodity (a world-class education) to a no-risk buyer rather than "rely on the kindness of strangers". I stand by what I said earlier that it would be unwise for an entity to rely on philanthropy when a sure thing is readily available, especially when that entity finds itself in times of a fiscal emergency! It's a definite possibility that Dal could fund students through fundraising, but would this be appropriate, or does it go far beyond what Dal should be expected to do for prospective students under the current structure? I would argue that it's the latter.

 

I'll agree to disagree with the statement that the fault does not lie with Dal. It will be interesting to see what the LCME has to say regarding this.

 

The fact is that Dalhousie currently has an "out" on the situation the NS government has placed them in. Believe me, I'm painfully aware that the government doesn't pay for our entire education (my bank statement serves as an ever-present reminder), but our seats are HEAVILY subsidized... especially when residency is considered. There simply isn't any funding for 10 more Canadian students (even though I'm sure it could be found somewhere in the provincial budget), and because of this Dal has lost access to a critical income flow. Although fundraising might be able to overcome this shortfall, so far no philanthropists have materialized. Fortunately, a fair deal was found with the government of a country that already has a well established relationship with the Canadian medical education system, and this deal comes at no expense to the education of Dal's current or future Canadian students. We'd be foolish to not take it.

 

Technically it does come at the expense of future Canadian students as there are now 10 fewer spots for them.

 

Regarding no expense to the education of Dal's current students, this is debatable but I sense this would be a moot point.

[DubZteR]

Regarding your unfounded concerns around these students somehow acquiring citizenship and competing in the first-round match for CMGs, I think you should research the lengthy process of applying for much less receiving permanent resident status, and the rather... contractual nature of ROS contracts.

 

I want to add that if your family member (ie. spouse) is from Iraq or the surrounding region which includes Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, Syria and Iran, that applications for permanent residence from Iraqi nationals who live in any of these five countries will be given priority processing. This means that new applications to sponsor a family member will also be processed right away without delays.

 

Also, keep in mind that the processing times I quoted before were for "out of country" applications .... In country applications are much quicker!

[gb35]

Regarding what Dal is doing, I'm wondering if it would put their accreditation at further risk since they are currently on probation. Someone is going to say "I'm sure they've taken this into account" ... but you'd be surprised how many medicals don't before taking desperate measures.

 

You really must not think much of Dal. They'd have to be pretty stupid to institute a policy like this without ensuring it wouldn't affect their accreditation.