Dal selling med school spaces to Saudi Arabia

[HBP]

They're not but a bunch of other Saudi Arabian trainees are. If you actually read through my message.

 

I apologize, but I must say that your use of pronouns is unclear.

[A-Stark]

again, i understand the funding issues, and the residency spot issues as well.

 

you can't however, convince me that selling these spots is the right way to go. I don't care how you tilt it. It's both ethically dubious to have 30 students from ONE country compete against each other, and it's plain unfair to Canadian students.

 

If this was a private school, then I'd understand.

 

What, exactly, is "ethically" dubious about it?

[DragonX]

 

These students will be

subject to the same admissions and performance standards that you are expected to meet.

 

 

I'm curious how this is going to work. I'm not questioning the compentency of Saudi Arabian students but since the applicant pool for these 10 seats have been limited specifically to the very wealthy individuals of Saudi Arabia, the competition is going to be very different. There is a lot smaller population applying for these seats... how is Dalhousie making sure that they meet the same criteria? If they need the 75k from students, are they going to leave vaccant seats if there is a Saudi Arabian willing to pay?

 

What I'm questioning is whether they will truely be subject to the same rigourous selection process as other Canadian applicants.

[mavrik13]

I'm curious how this is going to work. I'm not questioning the compentency of Saudi Arabian students but since the applicant pool for these 10 seats have been limited specifically to the very wealthy individuals of Saudi Arabia, the competition is going to be very different. There is a lot smaller population applying for these seats... how is Dalhousie making sure that they meet the same criteria? If they need the 75k from students, are they going to leave vaccant seats if there is a Saudi Arabian willing to pay?

 

What I'm questioning is whether they will truely be subject to the same rigourous selection process as other Canadian applicants.

 

I would imagine that they have to meet the same GPA and MCAT Cutoffs to get an interview, and must score sufficiently on the interview to not be auto-rejected. They are only interviewing 30, so they must be expecting more applicants than that - to put it in perspective, for the maritimes there are ~320 interviews for ~90 spots, a similar proportion of interviews to seats.

 

This is speculation, but I would be surprised if the entire $75,000 was paid privately - I think the Saudi gov't is paying for some of that expense.

[NS87]

As far as I know, the govt is paying for the entire 75K for the 10 students....its not limited to the "select wealthy students willing to pay".

Someone correct me if I'm wrong....

[MarathonRunner]

As far as I know, the govt is paying for the entire 75K for the 10 students....its not limited to the "select wealthy students willing to pay".

Someone correct me if I'm wrong....

 

Yep, from all the articles I've read, the Saudi government is paying the entire amount.

 

Granted, from what I know of Saudi Arabia (I've known people who have worked there), these will still be relatively wealthy individuals, as no doubt only Saudi citizens will be eligible, and they all tend to be fairly well off. But the individuals, and their families, won't be footing the bill. The Saudi government will pay for everything (similar to the way they paid to "import" the individuals I know of who worked there, to fill spots where they didn't have the required expertise - they recruited individuals from Western nations to help them develop, for example, their air traffic control systems back in the 1990s).

[yogi53]

Although there are seats available for the actual class lectures and other academic learning, I am unsure if there is capacity clinically (ie clerkship rotations). I worry about dilution of clinical experience.

[HBP]

Although there are seats available for the actual class lectures and other academic learning, I am unsure if there is capacity clinically (ie clerkship rotations). I worry about dilution of clinical experience.

 

How so? Dal had more students before the opening of the NB campus.

[DragonX]

As far as I know, the govt is paying for the entire 75K for the 10 students....its not limited to the "select wealthy students willing to pay".

Someone correct me if I'm wrong....

 

That's a bit better then... but it's still a smaller applicant group because you're limiting the applicant pool to just people from one area. It's like a VIP application route.

 

There are obviously no facts to back this up but it seems to me that they will still be subjected to less rigourous selection. If you look at the general applicant pool, there are more people who would satisfy the minimum requirements, have a decent interview, etc. However, after meeting the criteria, there's rigorous selction based on rocking interviews, essays, etc. By makig a seperate category for Saudia Arabians who would be eligible for funding, they aren't being compared to this general applicant pool anymore.. they have their own little VIP pool.

 

These people get to be looked at differently just because they come from a specific area. I think there are lots of Saudia Arabians who would be good doctors but I feel that they should have to be subject to the same thing as everyone else. If they're a Canadian citizen, they should be able to apply as a Canadian and if they aren't they should be considered like all other intenational students. Having a government that's wealthy enough to pay your tuition doesn't make you a better candidate for being a doctor.

[mavrik13]

That's a bit better then... but it's still a smaller applicant group because you're limiting the applicant pool to just people from one area. It's like a VIP application route.

 

There are obviously no facts to back this up but it seems to me that they will still be subjected to less rigourous selection. If you look at the general applicant pool, there are more people who would satisfy the minimum requirements, have a decent interview, etc. However, after meeting the criteria, there's rigorous selction based on rocking interviews, essays, etc. By makig a seperate category for Saudia Arabians who would be eligible for funding, they aren't being compared to this general applicant pool anymore.. they have their own little VIP pool.

 

These people get to be looked at differently just because they come from a specific area. I think there are lots of Saudia Arabians who would be good doctors but I feel that they should have to be subject to the same thing as everyone else. If they're a Canadian citizen, they should be able to apply as a Canadian and if they aren't they should be considered like all other intenational students. Having a government that's wealthy enough to pay your tuition doesn't make you a better candidate for being a doctor.

 

Dal has specifically and officially said these individuals will be held to the same standards as all other applicants. Dal's official word is worth a lot more than your speculation.

 

About competitiveness: the population of Saudi Arabia is over 25 million. They will have 10 spots at Dal. Granted, many won't have attended university in North America (another entrance criterion), and perhaps not all that are interested in medical school will consider applying to Dal, but despite that, the seats should still be plenty competitive. To put that in perspective, the population of New Brunswick is 750,000 - and they have 30 spots.

 

You must also understand that the government having money to cover tuition is exactly what dictates whether someone will be accepted to medical school or not, and it is up to the medical school to determine whether they believe someone will make a good doctor or not. Many of those who are rejected would not be 'bad doctors', but there were simply others who the school felt could be trained into 'good doctors'. The cutoff between this is dictated by the amount of funding the school has (for x number of spots). For better or worse, Dalhousie had the ability to train 10 additional doctors , but no province stepped up to take the opportunity to fund those spots. As long as the educational experience of the other medical students (myself being one of them) is not degraded next year due to these additional students, I can accept why this is necessary for Dal to do.

 

I still would far rather see these 10 spots go to hard-working Maritime or Canadian applicants... but that is another separate debate entirely.

[apache]

the saudi government usually sponsors these students, a good portion of residents are saudi sponsored nationals... sort of a shame when we have imgs who are willing to work in canada, and cmgs who are doing residencies they don't want to be doing, but canada is retarded

 

I'm just wondering how are students suppose to pay that? No bank would loan $300 K LoC.

 

If your family isn't rich won't you be left out in the dark?

[apache]

tell that to all the imgs i know who have near perfect ee, qe1, osce, toefl etc. scores and can't even get a fm residency spot because we sell our residency spots to the saudis... it's no wonder we have a doctor shortage

 

These people get to be looked at differently just because they come from a specific area. I think there are lots of Saudia Arabians who would be good doctors but I feel that they should have to be subject to the same thing as everyone else. If they're a Canadian citizen, they should be able to apply as a Canadian and if they aren't they should be considered like all other intenational students. Having a government that's wealthy enough to pay your tuition doesn't make you a better candidate for being a doctor.

[HBP]

tell that to all the imgs i know who have near perfect ee, qe1, osce, toefl etc. scores and can't even get a fm residency spot because we sell our residency spots to the saudis... it's no wonder we have a doctor shortage

 

We are NOT selling our residency spots. Le sigh.

[A-Stark]

the saudi government usually sponsors these students, a good portion of residents are saudi sponsored nationals... sort of a shame when we have imgs who are willing to work in canada, and cmgs who are doing residencies they don't want to be doing, but canada is retarded

 

No system is perfect or exists in a situation of unlimited resources.

[apache]

lol, can you read, if so, this took about two seconds to google:

 

http://www.saudibureau.org/english.html

 

here's an excerpt:

 

Today, almost 700 Saudi physicians are active trainees in programs of postgraduate medical residency in 13 Medical Colleges across Canada, and this number is expected to keep growing.

 

Each residency program lasts for a duration of 4 to 6 years, in accordance with the requirements of the RCPSC and the CFPC. Upon completion of their programs, Saudi physicians take both the written and oral examinations of the RCPSC or the CFPC, and every year some 50 or more return to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia having successfully completed their certification examinations and having received the designation of medical specialist and Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada or the College of Family Physicians of Canada in their medical specialty.

 

At present, more Saudi physicians are receiving postgraduate medical training in Canada than in any other country in the world; while in Canada, Saudi physicians comprise, by far, the largest group of non-Canadians in medical residency training - in fact, totaling more than one-third of the total from all other countries combined.

 

le sigh.

 

We are NOT selling our residency spots. Le sigh.

[rmorelan]

lol, can you read, if so, this took about two seconds to google:

 

http://www.saudibureau.org/english.html

 

here's an excerpt:

 

Today, almost 700 Saudi physicians are active trainees in programs of postgraduate medical residency in 13 Medical Colleges across Canada, and this number is expected to keep growing.

 

Each residency program lasts for a duration of 4 to 6 years, in accordance with the requirements of the RCPSC and the CFPC. Upon completion of their programs, Saudi physicians take both the written and oral examinations of the RCPSC or the CFPC, and every year some 50 or more return to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia having successfully completed their certification examinations and having received the designation of medical specialist and Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada or the College of Family Physicians of Canada in their medical specialty.

 

At present, more Saudi physicians are receiving postgraduate medical training in Canada than in any other country in the world; while in Canada, Saudi physicians comprise, by far, the largest group of non-Canadians in medical residency training - in fact, totaling more than one-third of the total from all other countries combined.

 

le sigh.

 

Isn't that just through the regular IMG route though - I mean they aren't paying for those residency spots and since a lot of the Saudi physicians are trained at north americian schools it seems logical that they would have an advantage at the CARMS process doesn't it (?)

[rmorelan]

out of curiousity how many people are in the class now total?

[HBP]

lol, can you read, if so, this took about two seconds to google:

 

http://www.saudibureau.org/english.html

 

here's an excerpt:

 

Today, almost 700 Saudi physicians are active trainees in programs of postgraduate medical residency in 13 Medical Colleges across Canada, and this number is expected to keep growing.

 

Each residency program lasts for a duration of 4 to 6 years, in accordance with the requirements of the RCPSC and the CFPC. Upon completion of their programs, Saudi physicians take both the written and oral examinations of the RCPSC or the CFPC, and every year some 50 or more return to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia having successfully completed their certification examinations and having received the designation of medical specialist and Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada or the College of Family Physicians of Canada in their medical specialty.

 

At present, more Saudi physicians are receiving postgraduate medical training in Canada than in any other country in the world; while in Canada, Saudi physicians comprise, by far, the largest group of non-Canadians in medical residency training - in fact, totaling more than one-third of the total from all other countries combined.

 

le sigh.

 

1) The OP said the 10 Dal students would be doing their residency in their home countries. This, of course, was the only thing I read... since that's the thread we're in.

 

2) Your post says nothing about Canada selling residency spots that would be otherwise filled with CMG's/IMG's. Seems to be an issue of Canada lacking the funding again. I wouldn't complain though, since these residents are providing care to our citizens on another country's dime.

 

Here's an article from 2005: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/CTVNewsAt11/20051011/whistleblower_doctors_20051018/

[A-Stark]

le sigh.

 

Your point? It's (1) debatable whether we need to train many more *specialists* and (2) welcome to the real world where everything costs money and Canadian governments cannot and will not fund more spots. As it stands, we have the capacity for more training (and most departments like having residents), and funding arrangements with foreign governments are an acceptable means of ensuring that adequate funds to exist PGME in general.

[DragonX]

No system is perfect or exists in a situation of unlimited resources.

 

You mean limited ?

 

Fair enough.. it just seems more fair to me if they don't limit these 10 seats to just people from Saudi Arabia, but all international students if they do this..

 

But indeed, nothing is ever perfect.

[w8kg6]

You mean limited ?

 

Fair enough.. it just seems more fair to me if they don't limit these 10 seats to just people from Saudi Arabia, but all international students if they do this..

 

But indeed, nothing is ever perfect.

 

He said "no system... exists in a situation of unlimited resources". That makes sense to me, and reinforces the argument he was trying to make. Also, as you might be able to see from the conversation so far, the Saudi government is subsidizing these seats (likely quite heavily). If they were open to all international students, no government subsidies would be in place, and the seats would only be accessible to the extremely wealthy. You have to choose between if you're going to make them available to everyone from one country, or the super-rich people of the entire world.

 

I think the right choice was made.

[pestle]

From what I understand the Dalhousie and the province of Nova Scotia has the completely wrong focus. Instead of thinking about how to quickly and in the short term increase their funding to patch over their deficit the focus should be on campaigning the province to secure more funding for CANADIAN students.

 

Since when was the physician shortage OVER? I understand the economics of the decision, but balancing debt cannot be the only factor in the equation.

 

What if Dal encouraged the provincial government to assess the current physician shortage in NS and then if it truly exists lobby for more funding for Canadian students. Once Dal opens the seats to Saudi Arabia how would they ever close this program? I think Dal's perspective needs to come Canadian first.

 

The Canadian Federation of Medical Students disagrees with Dal's decision and has an excellent public statement that can be read at the following link:

 

http://www.cfms.org/news.asp?ID=99

[HBP]

Naturally, the positions were available to the NS government first (to relieve this "doctor shortage"), who declined giving additional funding. Perhaps the citizens should appeal to their local government to coerce NS to provide the funding--Dalhousie can only do so much. They have to stay afloat.

[ryacha]

Maybe I am missing something, but whether or not the Saudi students start in the fall there are exactly the same number of spots for Canadian students as mentioned by others above.

 

So what is the risk to Canadian students? Nothing, just a better funded (+750k/yr) program and a more diverse class to learn from. IMO we should welcome this with open arms as an opportunity.

[yogi53]

To answer the question from my previous response, about the concern of diluting the clinical experience. Although there are the same total students split across two campuses, these students are then mixed during their clinical rotations (ex. Halifax based students doing family med in NB or surgery or Ob/gyn or surgery). It is a constant strain on the learning environment to provide opportunity to learn (patients and procedures, etc..)