Dal selling med school spaces to Saudi Arabia

[DubZteR]

Because the funding is not there. What part of that do you not get?

 

Then make it so that it's there. UofT recently received a $10 million Fidani Gift to advance medical edducation on top of their $12 million Donelli gift in Feb 2011.

 

I wish PM101 had a like button

 

Maybe you should do something about it and request to Ian Wong that they come up with such a feature.

[DubZteR]

I'm a clerk, and it arose out of a conversation going on around me amongst the attendings. There is a particular IM subspecialty fellow (Gulf sponsored) at McMaster right now of whom everyone is enamored. All think he is an uncommonly good doctor, and one of the attendings was bemoaning the fact they couldn't hire him - they weren't even going to bother asking him to join the faculty, although everyone wants to keep him in the department. When I inquired why they weren't even going to ask, I was told that there was no point: the Gulf sponsored residents "never stay". They invariably return home after finishing residency / fellowship.

 

Sometimes, an individual returns to Canada after a few years' absence after serving out their ROS. But the department didn't seem hopeful they'd ever get their hands on their golden boy again. Too bad - he really does seem to be an excellent doctor, and he's a pretty good preceptor, too.

 

Thanks for sharing your experience. I don't doubt that there are SA residents who are competent and I'm happy to hear of your good experience with this fellow. Logically, it would make sense given that the majority of them don't come here directly after they graduate from med school. Instead, they do quite a bit of clinical training in their own country (years !!!) prior to coming to Canada. The SA rad onc resident in my program graduated med school in 2004 and he's still behind me in his post grad training.

 

Training Saudi students is unpatriotic?

 

Sounds like you're just fishing here. If you've been reading my posts I think it should be pretty clear what I mean.

 

Again, who cares? Put up whatever flag you want. (I tell census takers that I'm martian).

 

Last time I checked, martian wasn't an option on the census.

[DubZteR]

My point is, if the government cuts your funding for medical school training spots, that's the end of story. Dal is not alone in their situation, and I'm glad that their students have a positive outlook and attitude.

 

It's only the end of the story if you let it be. Change can't happen unless we initiate it.

[gb35]

It's only the end of the story if you let it be. Change can't happen unless we initiate it.

 

But for this upcoming year, to stay afloat financially, what would you have them do?? They need money NOW, as they've already gone through one year with ten less students at the Halifax campus.

[gb35]

What would happen if the accreditation results happened to be negative? I mean, they won't be negative for the Saudi student issue, of that I'm sure, but if they happened to be, what happens to the current and incoming students?

[A-Stark]

Do not compare apples to oranges. These Malaysian students are considered visiting students, and do not graduate with an MD from Dal. These SA students would be Dal students, would graduate with a Dal MD degree. This is a completely different situation from the Malaysian example you used.

 

The Malaysian students absolutely do graduate with Dal MD degrees.

 

You're probably not aware that the most recent visit was a limited site visit and not a full site visit re-accreditation visit. I'm glad to hear that the comments from UGME seem to suggest that this limited visit is encouraging. The final official results of the visit will not be released until Nov. However, we do know that your dean has admitted recently that “there are still some outstanding issues" and one example that has been made aware of is that Dal students do not appear to be knowledgeable of important policies and protocols (ie. what the protocol is with needlesticks).

 

I participated in one of the meetings with the accreditation team, so, yes, I was aware of the nature of the visit. As for "outstanding issues", I believe Dr Marrie can speak for himself:

 

There are still some outstanding issues. While we have protocols in place relating to needle stick injury and other environmental hazards, students do not appear to be as aware of these policies as they could be, and so we will be developing instructional cards that all students will carry with them, outlining protocol. The team also noted that while student lockers and lounges are available in the Halifax Infirmary Site, there is a shortage of such facilities in the VG site. Not surprisingly, the effect of lost funding from the Nova Scotia government on the medical school's operating budget was the subject of considerable discussion. The site team did understand, however, that a funding study is underway and that Dalhouse University and the medical school are involved in ongoing discussions with the NS government around sustainable funding.

 

Absolutely! I wouldn't be surprised if you hadn't read the 2010 CaRMs report on Canadians studying medicine abroad .. because if you had read the report, you'd know how true it was, what a big issue it is right now that Canadians can't even get into Canadian med schools yet, in the face of it all, you have Dal trying to get away with what they're doing.

 

I haven't read it in detail, no, but the fact that a few hundred students go abroad each year does not have clear public policy implications. If we aren't in principle training enough physicians in Canada for the population demand, we are also not in a situation where governments are prepared to increase training spaces (to say nothing of staff positions post-residency).

[gb35]

Also, in addition to my previous post, has there been any precedent where a med school lost accreditation (not probation, but really lost it) during the year? What happens to accepted/incoming and current students?

 

(hoping I won't be kicking myself for picking Dal, but I'm probably being paranoid, haha)

[w8kg6]

Also, in addition to my previous post, has there been any precedent where a med school lost accreditation (not probation, but really lost it) during the year? What happens to accepted/incoming and current students?

 

(hoping I won't be kicking myself for picking Dal, but I'm probably being paranoid, haha)

 

You've got nothing to worry about. Although it was an informal inspection, the LCME representatives were very pleased with what Dal had been able to accomplish with its new curriculum and satellite campus. Regarding what happens to accepted students, not much would change. I asked the dean of my campus what would happen if Dal truly lost its accreditation, and he said that it would be more of a prestige thing than an obstacle.

[mavrik13]

You must have missed my post earlier on where I mentioned that according to CaRMs data for the past four yr and even taking into account increases in medical school spots throughout the country ... there are still in excess of over 100 government funded residency spots after the second round.

 

I did miss that - I am surprised by this (and just spent the last 20 mins looking at the CaRMS matching reports). There are 104 spots available after the second round, and 21 CMG's who didn't match in the first two rounds. While that sounds good, you should dig into the numbers a little deeper into the stats, because they aren't as promising as you think.

 

If you remove the french schools from the mix, that only leaves 25 spots. Do you have to speak french to do your residency at one of the Quebec schools? I would think so (but I don't know). If you do, and you assume that none of the 21 unmatched CMG's can't speak french (probably not a stretch, as those who spoke french would likely have been scooped up by the french universities in the first two rounds) that doesn't leave room for Dal to add CMG's to be added to the mix without increasing residency spots. Plus, most of the spots leftover are in specialties that no one really wants (i.e. little/no job market (a.k.a. doing >1 subspeciality after finishing residency, cardiac/ortho surgery), bench work (path, lab medicine)).

 

As a matter of principle, I still think you have to increase the number of residency spots if you increase the number of undergrad MD spots.

[BlackJack]

As a matter of principle, I still think you have to increase the number of residency spots if you increase the number of undergrad MD spots.

 

That would make far too much sense. What will happen is a shuttling of most grads to family medicine, like it or not.

 

If I were going through now, or if I could do it all over again, I'd study like mad and write the USMLE step 1 so that I could go to the USA instead of settle for a field I'm not keen on. The newer classes should consider this a mandatory part of medical school unless they want to leave their fates up to carms.

[gouldj7]

That would make far too much sense. What will happen is a shuttling of most grads to family medicine, like it or not.

 

If I were going through now, or if I could do it all over again, I'd study like mad and write the USMLE step 1 so that I could go to the USA instead of settle for a field I'm not keen on. The newer classes should consider this a mandatory part of medical school unless they want to leave their fates up to carms.

 

But what sort of odds do CMG's have in the national residency match? If obtaining a residency spot that you truly desire were easier in the states then why was the number of applicants only 24 this past match? If your chances of getting a competitive residency in the states were higher wouldn't one expect to see more than a handful of applicants?

 

I mean you could argue that you have better chances because of the low number of CMG's but that is only if US programs have a CMG quota, which I would assume they do not. In which case you would be competing against a huge pool. It just seems to me that the low number of CMG applicant must mean something - along the lines of, don't bother applying.

[DubZteR]

The Malaysian students absolutely do graduate with Dal MD degrees.

 

My bad. You are absolutely right about this. I'm actually still very surprised by how many medical schools these Malaysian students from IMU can choose to graduate from.

 

Looks like in Canada, only Dal has such an agreement with them and in the US, only Jefferson but looking throughout Europe there are quite a few! You learn something new everyday!

[DubZteR]

Also, in addition to my previous post, has there been any precedent where a med school lost accreditation (not probation, but really lost it) during the year? What happens to accepted/incoming and current students?

 

(hoping I won't be kicking myself for picking Dal, but I'm probably being paranoid, haha)

 

I don't think you have anything to worry about with regards to Dal.

[DubZteR]

I did miss that - I am surprised by this (and just spent the last 20 mins looking at the CaRMS matching reports). There are 104 spots available after the second round, and 21 CMG's who didn't match in the first two rounds. While that sounds good, you should dig into the numbers a little deeper into the stats, because they aren't as promising as you think.

 

If you remove the french schools from the mix, that only leaves 25 spots. Do you have to speak french to do your residency at one of the Quebec schools? I would think so (but I don't know). If you do, and you assume that none of the 21 unmatched CMG's can't speak french (probably not a stretch, as those who spoke french would likely have been scooped up by the french universities in the first two rounds) that doesn't leave room for Dal to add CMG's to be added to the mix without increasing residency spots. Plus, most of the spots leftover are in specialties that no one really wants (i.e. little/no job market (a.k.a. doing >1 subspeciality after finishing residency, cardiac/ortho surgery), bench work (path, lab medicine)).

 

That's a good point regarding the french schools. With the exception of McGill, you really do have to speak french fluently in order to do your residency. I agree it's a very complex process as it is .... let alone factoring in the job market in many specialties right now in Canada.

 

As a matter of principle, I still think you have to increase the number of residency spots if you increase the number of undergrad MD spots.

 

I agree that would be the ideal situation for everyone.

[The Law]

Pardon my late entry into this conversation, but I think this is further proof that the current way med student training is funded in Canada is unsustainable. Ten seats are going to international students because of lack of funding when there are thousands of students at home who want to become physicians and are leaving the country to do it. A lot of these students will pay excessive international student fees to get their training. I've brought it up before and faced resistance, but if we aren't training enough physicians and there is a demand... I think public-private partnerships should occur to open up more medical school training spots. I'm sure many of us who are going across the border to train could attest to the fact we'd gladly pay more for our medical training to have the opportunity to do it. And by no means am I rich, I'll do it with loans just like most of us who go out of Canada end up doing.

[I_am_hungover]

so if students are given the ability to purchase a set number of seats how are those students choosen... are there two applicant pools one to subsidized seats and one to non-subsidized. Or does everyone apply together and then some of them get to pay subsidized prices but those in the back ten spots of the train are met with "you are accepted, but only if you pay full price". Causing John Smith to withdraw from the program he was just accepted into because after wearing his ass out of 4 years getting good grades, and putting himself 50 000 dollars in debt, he isnt exactly in the best place to afford 70 000 + tuition per year on a count of the fact that Mr. and Mrs. Smith arent well off.

 

I just dont see justification in that option. You can't differentiate the price for the same education.

 

And I understand the suggestion, I just don't agree. It's frustrating but I think subsidization is necessary. Even if it means taking a year to breathe and let the government do it's research so that it can fund these 10 seats.

[A-Stark]

Pardon my late entry into this conversation, but I think this is further proof that the current way med student training is funded in Canada is unsustainable. Ten seats are going to international students because of lack of funding when there are thousands of students at home who want to become physicians and are leaving the country to do it. A lot of these students will pay excessive international student fees to get their training. I've brought it up before and faced resistance, but if we aren't training enough physicians and there is a demand... I think public-private partnerships should occur to open up more medical school training spots. I'm sure many of us who are going across the border to train could attest to the fact we'd gladly pay more for our medical training to have the opportunity to do it. And by no means am I rich, I'll do it with loans just like most of us who go out of Canada end up doing.

 

Public-private partnerships? Like to build the 407 or an airport? You haven't actually proposed anything other than to suggest more spots presumably funded to a much greater extent by students themselves.

 

And what's unsustainable exactly? It's debatable whether we're training enough for the population, but we are almost certainly training enough than can be reasonably accommodated by the system as it stands - that's certainly the case in Nova Scotia, except, perhaps, for family docs. Maybe.

 

I think you also overestimate the capacity of the system in different regions to accommodate all those extra students. We are more or less maxed out at our tertiary care centre here, and anyone who has tried to book electives can tell you that spaces are not overabundant.

 

Simply put, regardless of the "demand", there is little to no justification for designing policy specifically to benefit the aspirations of prospective med school applicants. And since you're going to what I presume is an LCME-accreditated school, you can participate in CaRMS with CMGs. That option is always open to Canadian students.

[IamIDP]

I recently heard that Dalhousie Medical school will be selling some seats for $75,000/year to Saudis. Source: http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=31724

 

I was just wondering If these seats will be available for Canadians too that can afford them (of course without a loan)...?

[Renin]

I recently heard that Dalhousie Medical school will be selling some seats for $75,000/year to Saudis. Source: http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=31724

 

I was just wondering If these seats will be available for Canadians too that can afford them (of course without a loan)...?

 

No. They are not.

[MD2019_A]

Buying your way through medical school? Isn't that like bribing? :S I could have a 2.3 GPA and still be in med school?

[IamIDP]

No. They are not.

 

That's messed, what the point then? There are wealthier Canadians living here that can fork up this cash. What if we are able to fork up more money then them? Even $100k/year?

 

Ishaanque: Yea it is like bribing but they are doing it.

[Mithril]

That's messed, what the point then? There are wealthier Canadians living here that can fork up this cash. What if we are able to fork up more money then them? Even $100k/year?

 

Ishaanque: Yea it is like bribing but they are doing it.

Canadian med seats also require Canadian residency positions. These international overquota seats for Saudi students are contractual agreements between two governments. Calgary also does this. The students go back to their home country after their medical training excluding residency is complete. It wouldn't make sense to sell seats to Canadians when the residency spots just aren't there.

[ubcMDhopeful]

I have heard that the Saudi government pays its students to go study elsewhere.

[ophtho_gunner]

Some of the comments on that website seem to be written by racist Islamophobes. These are the kind of bigots who need to be kicked out. Or I guess they can burn in jealousy by not being able to get admission on merit.

[ubcMDhopeful]

Some of the comments on that website seem to be written by racist Islamophobes. These are the kind of bigots who need to be kicked out. Or I guess they can burn in jealousy by not being able to get admission on merit.

 

I do not see any of the comments here to be racist against Muslims.

 

I can certainly say that for my self as one of my parents is actually Muslim.