Pagan Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/teen-charged-with-first-degree-murder-after-police-officer-crushed-by-van/article2080346/ If the teen had just stayed where he was, they would have gotten a slap on the wrist and gone home to their parents. Instead, two young children are now fatherless. This senseless violence is so saddening. What is happening with our generation?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehumanmacbook Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 It's really really sad...I've sent my flowers and condolences already (one of my family friends is a cop). However, one thing to note: I think he really made a mistake to reach inside for the keys. Most of the time officers I believe, are trained to ask the driver to turn the engine off before proceeding with the inquiry. But very tragic nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HBP Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 It's really really sad...I've sent my flowers and condolences already (one of my family friends is a cop). However, one thing to note: I think he really made a mistake to reach inside for the keys. Most of the time officers I believe, are trained to ask the driver to turn the engine off before proceeding with the inquiry. But very tragic nonetheless. +1 I'm shocked he did that. Shoulda told them to step out of the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 What's done is don and there's little sense in armchair quarterbacking his thought process as to why he would have done what he had done but can only imagine the circumstances which might have compelled him to do something so dangerous. Him and his family are neighbours of mine. Very nice guy and a great, outgoing family with twp adorable kids. I feel so bad for his wife and kids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 +2, it's a sad story for everyone involved, the guy shouldn't have tried to grab the keys but the result is still awful, and the kid is a quadriplegic too... total sympathies to the cop and family, and while the kid made a mistake, i think he paid a pretty high price for his actions too (guilt plus being a quadriplegic don't sound fun ) It's really really sad...I've sent my flowers and condolences already (one of my family friends is a cop). However, one thing to note: I think he really made a mistake to reach inside for the keys. Most of the time officers I believe, are trained to ask the driver to turn the engine off before proceeding with the inquiry. But very tragic nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 my honest thinking is it was probably just an accident, and that he may have had something to hide (probably drugs/open alcohol in the car or something) which caused him to panic and drive. still a terribly sad story for both parties though If the teen had just stayed where he was, they would have gotten a slap on the wrist and gone home to their parents. Instead, two young children are now fatherless. This senseless violence is so saddening. What is happening with our generation?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithril Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 I'm not sure why it's an automatic 1st-degree murder charge to kill a police officer with or without intent. My condolences to the cop's family, but his death was an accident and the kid should be charged as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 yeah, i tend to agree, first degree requires pre-meditation and this obviously wasn't pre-meditated. it looks like a clear cut manslaughter case if the guy was a civilian, but the kids a quadriplegic too now, in my weird way of thinking that's like karma punishing you worse than going to prison, which at this point, he won't anyways... the trial will be just be nominal to go through the motions of justice and bring closure to the family I'm not sure why it's an automatic 1st-degree murder charge to kill a police officer with or without intent. My condolences to the cop's family, but his death was an accident and the kid should be charged as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 I'm not sure why it's an automatic 1st-degree murder charge to kill a police officer with or without intent. My condolences to the cop's family, but his death was an accident and the kid should be charged as such. You dont think police officers deserve some form of protection? Otherwise, what's to stop criminals from attacking cops but not making it look like is was pre meditated? (easily done btw, if you have a hate on for a cop). Good thing this isnt in the US or he'd be facing federal charges involving a cop killing which automatically push it to a capital case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 I dont see how you can say it was an accident. The van was stopped and the kid tried to leave the scene. If that's not intent then i dont know what is. This wasnt something that just happened. There was an intended, purposeful thought involved by the kid to flee which caused the death of someone. If he had of hit a person jogging on the side of the road as he was attempting to flee i'd see it as the same thing. Was it planned? No and with any other person they'd likely plead it down to murder 2 or involuntary man slaughter but im sorry, cops are deserving of special protection under the law. Thry put themselves at risk and such have some form of protection for doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ploughboy Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 I'm not sure why it's an automatic 1st-degree murder charge to kill a police officer with or without intent. My condolences to the cop's family, but his death was an accident and the kid should be charged as such. It's first-degree murder because section 231 of the Criminal Code says it is: Murder of peace officer, etc. (4) Irrespective of whether a murder is planned and deliberate on the part of any person, murder is first degree murder when the victim is (a) a police officer, police constable, constable, sheriff, deputy sheriff, sheriff’s officer or other person employed for the preservation and maintenance of the public peace, acting in the course of his duties; http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-231-20091002.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erk Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 It's first-degree murder because section 231 of the Criminal Code says it is] Pretty sure that's not what he meant by "why". This is such a senseless and horrible event. A father is dead and a foolish child's life is destroyed for some stupid mistake. Sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HBP Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 I dont see how you can say it was an accident. The van was stopped and the kid tried to leave the scene. If that's not intent then i dont know what is. This wasnt something that just happened. There was an intended, purposeful thought involved by the kid to flee which caused the death of someone. If he had of hit a person jogging on the side of the road as he was attempting to flee i'd see it as the same thing. Was it planned? No and with any other person they'd likely plead it down to murder 2 or involuntary man slaughter but im sorry, cops are deserving of special protection under the law. Thry put themselves at risk and such have some form of protection for doing so. There's no way this is going as first-degree. It's the initial charge that's given to protect police officers, but it's definitely not going to stick. Probably won't even be manslaughter, given that the kid is 15. It wasn't intended. He fled as a result of the officer trying to grab the keys and probably **** his pants. Such a senseless and unfortunate act. Hope the best for his family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 The kid is 15, he's done this before and he basically stole the van. Im all for second chances in life and god knows i've had my share of them but i didn't kill anyone. Guilt or not, injury or not, he needs to pay for his crimes. Moral hazard folks. People need to realize their actions have consequences and this kids' actions caused death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagan Posted June 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 I agree that there should be special protection for cops. They are the ones putting themselves in dangerous situations while the average civilian does their best to avoid situations like that. Everyone knows NOT to shoot or injure a cop. If you do there should be serious punishment. But rarely does anyone plan on shooting an officer who just arrives on the scene (and its hard to prove). If the 1st degree law wasn't in place than nearly all criminals will be getting off with manslaughter/2nd degree. How is that justice for the police officer who gave his/her life trying to protect the public? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD2015 Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 ^ +1. It must be this way with no exceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanillabear Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Very terrible indeed. I read the transcript of the incident in the Star yesterday and I was saddened by what took place, but also was proud of the officer for still being worried about the kids in the car while it was pinned on him. That was incredible. As for it being first-degree murder, I don't know where I stand. I agree that police officers require the protection, but the law pretty much says that the life of a police officer is more important than that of a civilian, which I don't quite agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erk Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 the law pretty much says that the life of a police officer is more important than that of a civilian, which I don't quite agree with. I disagree. I think it says police officers are at more risk of being killed in ways that could be legally brushed off as accidents by lawyers, resulting in a lesser charge, and exists to prevent that. It's a necessary justice for a job that puts people in constant interaction with violent, mentally unstable people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erk Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Then why not doctors? Betcha more cops get killed in the line of duty. Pretty much everyone else faces these people when they are known quantities, with more controls in place (not always sufficient, I know). Cops don't. Violent people are also far more likely to respond violently to a police officer than to a doctor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnb88 Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Then why not doctors? When someone is acting really violent towards a member of the healthcare team, they call in security/the cops. The number of docs that get killed "in the line of duty" are a TON less than the number of cops that do. If faced with a violent/deadly situation, the doc would gtfo if possible, and call in security to subdue the patient. A cop, well, it's their duty/job to be in those kinds of situations and put their life in danger, they can't just gtfo. In response to why it's Murder 1 and not manslaughter, like someone else said, it could be easy to say it was an "accident". Murder 1 is hard to prove, but I mean, let's look at a scenario if it wasn't a murder 1 charge...... Dude is holding up a bank, hostages are safe, but it's a stand off. Dude comes out shooting at cops to "get away".... Dude's shooting at a cop, the dude wanted to kill some cops (but who's going to know? Murder 1 is hard to prove), but it just "happened" in the heat of the moment. Murder 2 (or if he has a good lawyer, even manslaughter). How long could he be in jail for? Well, maybe not much longer than the armed robbery charge he has. So if he has an intent to kill a cop.... why not do it that way? However, the way it's set up now, it's murder 1 automatically. If you had the option of just going for armed robbery (less time) than murder 1 (25 to life I believe), would you just surrender, or would you try and shoot the place up? Basically it's meant to be a deterrent. Would you think that most people would want to put their life in danger like cops do every day if there was no real deterrent at all? Every situation a cop puts himself in could lead to death (even a simple traffic stop....), would you want to tell them that because they're helping keep the rest of us safe by putting their life on the line each and every day, that that sacrifice means squat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Although I really respect what good police officers do, I have to agree with you on this one. It's not fair to give murder one to manslaughter cases, suppose your drunk and you punch an officer and he falls and hits his head the wrong way, you can't possibly justify the sentence of murder one since there is no pre-conceived or even momentary intent (murder 2). I think a good compromise would be that if you are convicted of killing a police officer, you get the max sentence for the charge (with no probation until the full sentence is served), no questions asked. I'd also be comfortable moving murder two to murder one, but you can't move manslaughter to murder one... it strictly elevates the worth of an officers life over a civilian to too much of a great degree. While I agree there should be stiffer sentencing for crimes against officers I don't think we can take a black and white approach of slapping murder one on every crime, especially manslaughter. Very terrible indeed. I read the transcript of the incident in the Star yesterday and I was saddened by what took place, but also was proud of the officer for still being worried about the kids in the car while it was pinned on him. That was incredible. As for it being first-degree murder, I don't know where I stand. I agree that police officers require the protection, but the law pretty much says that the life of a police officer is more important than that of a civilian, which I don't quite agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Pretty fing sad that we live in a society where people sympathize with criminals over the victims. There's a family without a father now who's kids likely wont have any memories of their father. Justify and sympathize that. It's easy to look at these things in the abstract because we don't see the net effect that these actions bring. This kid is a cop killer plain and simple. Instead of pulling a trigger he pushed the gas peddle instead. Different method, same result. This rant isnt against anyone here. Just some comments i've read around the net on various articles posted about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanillabear Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 Pretty fing sad that we live in a society where people sympathize with criminals over the victims. There's a family without a father now who's kids likely wont have any memories of their father. Justify and sympathize that. It's easy to look at these things in the abstract because we don't see the net effect that these actions bring. This kid is a cop killer plain and simple. Instead of pulling a trigger he pushed the gas peddle instead. Different method, same result. This rant isnt against anyone here. Just some comments i've read around the net on various articles posted about this. Though I'm not necessarily on either side here, I take exception to the bolded... There's a quadraplegic 15-year-old who might be in jail for a VERY large part of his life because of a mistake he made one night under pressure. Can you sympathize with that? As a teenager, I'm sure you've done some stupid things, I know I have, and sure they may not be of this magnitude, but mistakes can escalate very quickly. If the car didn't flip over - which was of no fault of the child, as far as we know - then the officer likely wouldn't have died and this wouldn't have been as big an issue, right? In fact, if the officer didn't reach for the keys (which is "unusual" at best), then none of this would have happened... The point is, don't be so quick to sympathize with the victim alone. I know its a terrible thing and I am also very sorry of what happened, but let us not lose sight of the fact that there are two sides to every story. my $0.02... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 The kid is 15, he's done this before and he basically stole the van. Im all for second chances in life and god knows i've had my share of them but i didn't kill anyone. Guilt or not, injury or not, he needs to pay for his crimes. Moral hazard folks. People need to realize their actions have consequences and this kids' actions caused death. What's to sympathize with? HIS actions created the situation. Had he not stolen the van. Not tried to drive without a lisc. and then tried to get away then the kid would still be able to walk, won't be going to jail and the cop would still be alive but unfortunately his actions caused this mess and therefore should stand trial for first degree murder. Im not sure how you can equate jail time and lost of ability to walk with that of death. Pretty polar opposites. Which do you think is worse? Though I'm not necessarily on either side here, I take exception to the bolded... There's a quadraplegic 15-year-old who might be in jail for a VERY large part of his life because of a mistake he made one night under pressure. Can you sympathize with that? As a teenager, I'm sure you've done some stupid things, I know I have, and sure they may not be of this magnitude, but mistakes can escalate very quickly. If the car didn't flip over - which was of no fault of the child, as far as we know - then the officer likely wouldn't have died and this wouldn't have been as big an issue, right? In fact, if the officer didn't reach for the keys (which is "unusual" at best), then none of this would have happened... The point is, don't be so quick to sympathize with the victim alone. I know its a terrible thing and I am also very sorry of what happened, but let us not lose sight of the fact that there are two sides to every story. my $0.02... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medguy5367 Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 It seems that the first person to cross the line was the cop when he reached inside the car for the keys. Anyway, an unfortunate incident altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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