Med school class sizes

[champ]

I was just wondering if there was info out there that stated 1st year med classes will continue to increase in size or was this years entering class the last expansion in canada for the time being?

[hking03]

I was just wondering if there was info out there that stated 1st year med classes will continue to increase in size or was this years entering class the last expansion in canada for the time being?

 

Well, they probably wont be increasing anytime soon at UBC with the new site opening in kelowna I have a feeling they will be capped for a few years at 288. Although, if all 4 sites took an extra 3 students that would put them at 300 and shouldn't put too much of a strain on the schools infrastructure...

 

Who knows.

[obi]

There's no point in continuing to expand medschool spots, because now they're running out of residency spots. No point in churning out MD's that can't even practise.

 

So i would say no, for now its probably not going to continue to grow each year indefinitely.

[HBP]

There's no point in continuing to expand medschool spots, because now they're running out of residency spots. No point in churning out MD's that can't even practise.

 

So i would say no, for now its probably not going to continue to grow each year indefinitely.

 

I agree with this. They slashed spots in the mid 90s, and that's what caused the recent deficit in doctors. Now we're back up and beyond the # of spots in the 90s. The population size has increased too, but we should be steadying out. Can't see spots increasing too much more.

[EoE]

Running out of specialty residency spots yes, but primary care spots? Some spots go unfilled (pdf) every year (although the lion's share are in french programs). There are more spots than grads (pdf) still. Others have claimed this is the government's way of forcing more graduates into family. I am not so sure about that myself.

 

I heard a rumor that the new buildings at both UofT Mississauga and Queen's have a number more seats in the lecture theatres than there are med students... which could indicate an impending increase, but I realize that is not very definitive.

[apache]

they can happily practice in fm, doing residency in obscure locations... but yeah, funding isn't there for more spots at the moment!

 

There's no point in continuing to expand medschool spots, because now they're running out of residency spots. No point in churning out MD's that can't even practise.

 

So i would say no, for now its probably not going to continue to grow each year indefinitely.

[rmorelan]

I really doubt we will see nay real increases now. With the now official report from the OMA and Ontario government suggesting the shortage will end (by 2017) before any student taking advantage of any new spots opening from this point onward could possible get into practise (ok if they get in next year and go to mac and then do family they will graduate just at the same time I guess ). The government has the report it needs to stop spending large amounts of cash trying to construct new spots - not only would they be expensive but in the long run they will end up costing the system more.

 

Not in the near future but looking ahead I can see the day not that far off when there would need to be a drop in the number of spots actually. Which is really a new idea in my "we will always have a shortage" kind of thinking

[rmorelan]

I really doubt we will see nay real increases now. With the now official report from the OMA and Ontario government suggesting the shortage will end (by 2017) before any student taking advantage of any new spots opening from this point onward could possible get into practise (ok if they get in next year and go to mac and then do family they will graduate just at the same time I guess ). The government has the report it needs to stop spending large amounts of cash trying to construct new spots - not only would they be expensive but in the long run they will end up costing the system more.

 

Not in the near future but looking ahead I can see the day not that far off when there would need to be a drop in the number of spots actually. Which is really a new idea in my "we will always have a shortage" kind of thinking

 

oh and the same logic goes towards why they wouldn't be in any hurry to add a pile of residency spots either in the near future. They are holding the line as it were.

[<abstract>]

As with the other posts, I agree that medical school spots will eventually level out in the coming years. However, some schools that focus on rural/Northern health like NOSM will probably see an increase in class sizes over the coming years, as the shortage in rural/Northern Canada will remain regardless of the OMA stating that the doctor shortage will be resolved in 2017.

[thehumanmacbook]

As with the other posts' date=' I agree that medical school spots will eventually level out in the coming years. However, some schools that focus on rural/Northern health like NOSM will probably see an increase in class sizes over the coming years, as the shortage in rural/Northern Canada will remain regardless of the OMA stating that the doctor shortage will be resolved in 2017.[/quote']

 

That depends on whether NOSM will have an increase in funding as well - right now I don't think they've seen that increase yet.

[Mithril]

As with the other posts' date=' I agree that medical school spots will eventually level out in the coming years. However, some schools that focus on rural/Northern health like NOSM will probably see an increase in class sizes over the coming years, as the shortage in rural/Northern Canada will remain regardless of the OMA stating that the doctor shortage will be resolved in 2017.[/quote']I think provinces will just provide some sort of stipend or deal that if you work in a rural province for some contracted amount of time then you get paid extra that goes towards tuition debt. Similar to what Manitoba's doing. I doubt med schools will increase the number of seats until at least the latter half of this decade.

[champ]

I really doubt we will see nay real increases now. With the now official report from the OMA and Ontario government suggesting the shortage will end (by 2017) before any student taking advantage of any new spots opening from this point onward could possible get into practise (ok if they get in next year and go to mac and then do family they will graduate just at the same time I guess ). The government has the report it needs to stop spending large amounts of cash trying to construct new spots - not only would they be expensive but in the long run they will end up costing the system more.

 

Not in the near future but looking ahead I can see the day not that far off when there would need to be a drop in the number of spots actually. Which is really a new idea in my "we will always have a shortage" kind of thinking

 

I was actually thinking along the same lines. The "2017" date is the estimate for family docs and the specialist shortage was predicted to end by 2014? if I remember correctly.

[rmorelan]

I was actually thinking along the same lines. The "2017" date is the estimate for family docs and the specialist shortage was predicted to end by 2014? if I remember correctly.

 

Yes that is correct according to the latest report - so anyone entering into medicine after the very next application cycle would graduate in a overall shortage free situation.

 

The government may try to use stipends to pull people to rural areas or some of the other tricks I suspect they may get somewhat "pushy" if people don't end up there as well.

 

One thing I should mention now is that the fact the report exists will change some of the findings (tell everyone there are no jobs in field X and no one goes into that field ultimately causing a ton of jobs to occur there when people retire. The opposite is also true, the report gives clear areas where the need is still going to be high. People will likely try to get into those areas all things being equal so the shortage may not actually materialize. That is the royal pain about Economic modelling - get it all right and you will be still wrong ).

[MD2015]

Getting it right and therefore, being wrong is better than getting it wrong and making it worse.

[quackster]

I really doubt we will see nay real increases now. With the now official report from the OMA and Ontario government suggesting the shortage will end (by 2017) before any student taking advantage of any new spots opening from this point onward could possible get into practise (ok if they get in next year and go to mac and then do family they will graduate just at the same time I guess ). The government has the report it needs to stop spending large amounts of cash trying to construct new spots - not only would they be expensive but in the long run they will end up costing the system more.

 

Not in the near future but looking ahead I can see the day not that far off when there would need to be a drop in the number of spots actually. Which is really a new idea in my "we will always have a shortage" kind of thinking

Do you have a link to the report? I'm interested in reading it.

[Pantaloons]

Do you have a link to the report? I'm interested in reading it.

 

As am I.

I still hear the shortage being used as an argument for expanding the scope of practice for nurses, pharmacists, and mid-levels.

If the projections really do say the shortage will be filled by physicians by 2017, then I imagine our field may get pretty crowded if other health care professionals have expanded practices as well.

[rmorelan]

Getting it right and therefore, being wrong is better than getting it wrong and making it worse.

 

Oh I forgot to mention, the more often you get it right the more often people believe you and then act according to what you way (Bob is always right! There must be shortage of X coming! I will go do that then!), and then as a result the more likely you are to be wrong

[rmorelan]

As am I.

I still hear the shortage being used as an argument for expanding the scope of practice for nurses, pharmacists, and mid-levels.

If the projections really do say the shortage will be filled by physicians by 2017, then I imagine our field may get pretty crowded if other health care professionals have expanded practices as well.

 

Sure - guess this report is not as common knowledge as I thought -

 

http://www.healthforceontario.ca/WhatIsHFO/evidence_hhr/physician_simulation_model.aspx

 

Oh the FAQ specifically says this model is being used to predict the effects of medical school enrollment increases as an example. The very first example actually. So yeah.....

[kylamonkey]

Running out of specialty residency spots yes, but primary care spots? Some spots go unfilled (pdf) every year (although the lion's share are in french programs).

 

 

Is it possible to do a residency in French if you're fluent BUT not Francophone/not from a Quebequois school?

[future_doc]

I do not see why not. See below:

 

 

From: http://www.carms.ca/eng/r4_eligibility_prov_e.shtml#sherbrooke

 

Université Laval

Pour être admissibles au Québec, les candidats doivent être détenteurs d'un diplôme de médecine (MD) d'une faculté de médecine du Canada ou des États-Unis ou diplômés hors du Canada et des États-Unis (DHCEU) et avoir préalablement obtenu la reconnaissance de leur diplôme MD auprès du Collège des médecins du Québec. Ils doivent être en 3e année de résidence en médecine interne dans une faculté de médecine canadienne ou américaine1.

Contingent régulier

Les postes du contingent régulier sont offerts aux résidents actuellement inscrits dans un programme de médecine interne dans une faculté de médecine du Québec et faisant déjà partie de ce contingent;

Contingent particulier

Des postes sont aussi offerts :

aux résidents faisant déjà partie de ce contingent qui sont inscrits dans un programme de médecine interne dans une faculté de médecine du Québec;

aux citoyens canadiens ou résidents permanents du Canada, qui sont actuellement en 3e année de résidence en médecine interne1 en dehors du Québec, soit ailleurs au Canada ou aux États-Unis et sont détenteurs:

d'un diplôme de médecine (MD) d'une faculté de médecine canadienne ou américaine

ou d'un diplôme de médecine d'une faculté de médecine hors Canada et États-Unis (DHCEU) ET ont obtenu la reconnaissance de leur diplôme de médecine (MD) du Collège des médecins du Québec.

Ne sont pas admissibles :

Les candidats qui sont dans leur 4e ou 5e année de résidence en médecine interne ou dans une autre spécialité1;

Les candidats qui détiennent un visa d'étude qui ne sont pas déjà inscrits dans le contingent régulier au Québec

Les candidats des Forces canadiennes

NOTE : Les candidats qui ne peuvent pas débuter leur R-4 le 1er juillet sont admissibles, à condition de pouvoir débuter leur formation au plus tard à la dernière période de l'année académique pour laquelle ils postulent.

1 Exception faite des candidats au programme de soins intensifs qui peuvent être dans la 4e; ou la 5e année de leur formation. Voir les critères spécifiques aux programmes de soins intensifs.

 

 

Université de Sherbrooke

Pour être admissibles au Québec, les candidats doivent être détenteurs d'un diplôme de médecine (MD) d'une faculté de médecine du Canada ou des États-Unis ou diplômés hors du Canada et des États-Unis (DHCEU) et avoir préalablement obtenu la reconnaissance de leur diplôme MD auprès du Collège des médecins du Québec. Ils doivent être en 3e année de résidence en médecine interne dans une faculté de médecine canadienne ou américaine1.

Contingent régulier

Les postes du contingent régulier sont offerts aux résidents actuellement inscrits dans un programme de médecine interne dans une faculté de médecine du Québec et faisant déjà partie de ce contingent;

Contingent particulier

Des postes sont aussi offerts :

aux résidents faisant déjà partie de ce contingent qui sont inscrits dans un programme de médecine interne dans une faculté de médecine du Québec;

aux citoyens canadiens ou résidents permanents du Canada, qui sont actuellement en 3e année de résidence en médecine interne1 en dehors du Québec, soit ailleurs au Canada ou aux États-Unis et sont détenteurs:

d'un diplôme de médecine (MD) d'une faculté de médecine canadienne ou américaine

ou d'un diplôme de médecine d'une faculté de médecine hors Canada et États-Unis (DHCEU) ET ont obtenu la reconnaissance de leur diplôme de médecine (MD) du Collège des médecins du Québec.

Ne sont pas admissibles :

Les candidats qui sont dans leur 4e ou 5e année de résidence en médecine interne ou dans une autre spécialité1;

Les candidats qui détiennent un visa d'étude qui ne sont pas déjà inscrits dans le contingent régulier au Québec

Les candidats des Forces canadiennes

NOTE : Les candidats qui ne peuvent pas débuter leur R-4 le 1er juillet sont admissibles, à condition de pouvoir débuter leur formation au plus tard à la dernière période de l'année académique pour laquelle ils postulent.

1 Exception faite des candidats au programme de soins intensifs qui peuvent être dans la 4e; ou la 5e année de leur formation. Voir les critères spécifiques aux programmes de soins intensifs.

 

 

Université de Montréal

Pour être admissibles au Québec, les candidats doivent être détenteurs d'un diplôme de médecine (MD) d'une faculté de médecine du Canada ou des États-Unis ou diplômés hors du Canada et des États-Unis (DHCEU) et avoir préalablement obtenu la reconnaissance de leur diplôme MD auprès du Collège des médecins du Québec. Ils doivent être en 3e année de résidence en médecine interne dans une faculté de médecine canadienne ou américaine1.

Contingent régulier

Les postes du contingent régulier sont offerts aux résidents actuellement inscrits dans un programme de médecine interne dans une faculté de médecine du Québec et faisant déjà partie de ce contingent;

Contingent particulier

Des postes sont aussi offerts :

aux résidents faisant déjà partie de ce contingent qui sont inscrits dans un programme de médecine interne dans une faculté de médecine du Québec;

aux citoyens canadiens ou résidents permanents du Canada, qui sont actuellement en 3e année de résidence en médecine interne1 en dehors du Québec, soit ailleurs au Canada ou aux États-Unis et sont détenteurs:

d'un diplôme de médecine (MD) d'une faculté de médecine canadienne ou américaine

ou d'un diplôme de médecine d'une faculté de médecine hors Canada et États-Unis (DHCEU) ET ont obtenu la reconnaissance de leur diplôme de médecine (MD) du Collège des médecins du Québec.

Ne sont pas admissibles :

Les candidats qui sont dans leur 4e ou 5e année de résidence en médecine interne ou dans une autre spécialité1;

Les candidats qui détiennent un visa d'étude qui ne sont pas déjà inscrits dans le contingent régulier au Québec

Les candidats des Forces canadiennes

NOTE : Les candidats qui ne peuvent pas débuter leur R-4 le 1er juillet sont admissibles, à condition de pouvoir débuter leur formation au plus tard à la dernière période de l'année académique pour laquelle ils postulent.

1 Exception faite des candidats au programme de soins intensifs qui peuvent être dans la 4e; ou la 5e année de leur formation. Voir les critères spécifiques aux programmes de soins intensifs.

 

 

McGill University

Eligible trainees must have obtained their MD from a Canadian or American Medical School. Also eligible are International Medical Graduates (DHCEU) whose Medical Degree has been validated by the Collège des médecins du Québec. Candidates must be in their third year of residency in Internal Medicine in a Canadian or an American Faculty of Medicine.

Contingent régulier

These positions are available to current Quebec Internal Medicine residents already admitted via this quota;

Contingent particulier

Positions are also available as follows

Internal Medicine Residents already admitted via this quota currently registered in Internal Medicine in a Quebec Faculty of Medicine.

Canadian citizens or Permanent Residents of Canada, who are currently in their 3rd year of Residency in Internal Medicine outside of Quebec, either in a Canadian or American Program who hold:

An MD from a Canadian or a US Medical School.

 

OR

International Medical Graduates (DHCEU) who had previously obtained equivalence of their medical degree from the Collège des médecins du Québec.

The following applicants are not eligible:

Candidates who are in their fourth or fifth year of residency in Internal Medicine or in any other discipline.

Visa trainees not currently registered via the contingent régulier in a Quebec program.

Applicants from the Canadian Armed Forces.

Trainees who are out of phase, i.e. who will not have completed their R-2 as of June 30, 2011, must ensure this information is available at the time of application. Trainees who are out of phase by more than 6 months may choose to participate in a subsequent match. Trainees who wish to apply in a subsequent match should write their home school Associate Dean to obtain clearance.

Exception: Candidates apply to Intensive Care may be in their 4th or 5th year of Residency.

[rmorelan]

Running out of specialty residency spots yes, but primary care spots? Some spots go unfilled (pdf) every year (although the lion's share are in french programs). There are more spots than grads (pdf) still. Others have claimed this is the government's way of forcing more graduates into family. I am not so sure about that myself.

 

I heard a rumor that the new buildings at both UofT Mississauga and Queen's have a number more seats in the lecture theatres than there are med students... which could indicate an impending increase, but I realize that is not very definitive.

 

Western already has seats for many more students than they currently have - that doesn't mean they are going to use them though

 

The match results don't always line up with the job market either - don't assume because there is residency spot there is a corresponding job at the end. Cardiac and neuro surgeons can tell you all about that - but the situation is not unique to just those programs by a long shot.

[mavrik13]

I agree with this. They slashed spots in the mid 90s, and that's what caused the recent deficit in doctors. Now we're back up and beyond the # of spots in the 90s. The population size has increased too, but we should be steadying out. Can't see spots increasing too much more.

 

Not true, please read this report (at least skim it, it is long) - http://secure.cihi.ca/cihiweb/products/chanjun02.pdf

 

Nothing personal, but from the report, the reduction in number of spots in the 90's could have accounted for no more than a 2% decrease in the net inflow of physicians into the Canadian workforce. There are far more important causes of the perceived physician shortage, and the reduction in medical school spots in the 90's really had little impact.

[EoE]

Western already has seats for many more students than they currently have - that doesn't mean they are going to use them though

 

The match results don't always line up with the job market either - don't assume because there is residency spot there is a corresponding job at the end. Cardiac and neuro surgeons can tell you all about that - but the situation is not unique to just those programs by a long shot.

 

Interesting. I suppose the schools probably just build classrooms with excess spots to give themselves wiggle room.

 

I have read all about CaRMs and scoured the RBC guide, the CFMS and the CMA sites (the parts that I have access to), but I am having trouble understanding the state of the job markets for different specialties. Does anyone have any resources that discuss the availability of jobs for certain specialties (peds subspecialties esp)? I realize this is probably not discussed from a 'this field is over-saturated' perspective, but may be discussed from a 'we need people in this field' perspective. Just curious.

[rmorelan]

Interesting. I suppose the schools probably just build classrooms with excess spots to give themselves wiggle room.

 

I have read all about CaRMs and scoured the RBC guide, the CFMS and the CMA sites (the parts that I have access to), but I am having trouble understanding the state of the job markets for different specialties. Does anyone have any resources that discuss the availability of jobs for certain specialties (peds subspecialties esp)? I realize this is probably not discussed from a 'this field is over-saturated' perspective, but may be discussed from a 'we need people in this field' perspective. Just curious.

 

hmmm not sure that kind of information (at the subspeciality level) is really tracked but there is word of mouth etc. There are about 2250 peds docs out there and about 18 subspecialities plus of course the generalists. Trouble is at that level there are relatively few jobs as a result in a particular subspeciality and things can change pretty quickly in a particular location etc. I posted the overall needs based model which I guess is our best (for Ontario) long range planning for doctor levels by speciality but it doesn't break down below say peds overall.

 

I have been told by several people that when you get later in your residency and start looking at fellowships etc you scope out what is needed at that point a select something accordingly. People often arrange jobs at hospital X a year down the road and go do a fellowship specifically to help in an area they need for instance.