UBCStudent128 Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 Hi, I'm a second year undergraduate student and I just started volunteering in a lab this september. I realized that I wouldn't be doing 'significant' work but I feel that what I'm doing wouldn't be beneficial at all for my application. I have never met the professor since the interview and basically work by myself. (With her assistant popping in from time to time). All I do is basically collect data, count cells under microscope. I like the fact that I get to experience lab environment, see cool new things but is this beneficial at all in my application if I've counted cells for 300 hours in a lab? Also I feel I can't even ask for reference letter from the professor since she's never really seen me. (Just seen my data) Right now I don't know if I could even ask for a 'better' position because the professor is in the midst of getting a grant and basically I'm collecting data which will be part of her grant proposal. So BASICALLY what I'm saying is 1) Is what I'm doing beneficial to my application? 2) Should I keep going ? 3) How do you think I could land a 'better' position even though they're in the midst of getting a grant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McMarauder Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 You could ask your supervisor if it was possible for you to take on a bigger project over the summer. Volunteering in a lab is generally not very productive since most of your time is spent in class, but it allows students to get their toes wet before jumping into research. Do you like the research your lab does? Do you like the people in the lab? It doesn't hurt to approach your supervisor when they're not busy and just say "hey dr. _____, I'm really enjoying my time in the lab, and I was wondering if it was possible for me to work as a summer student". The worst he/she could say is "no" or "i'll have to see what my funding is like". Just make sure your prof KNOWS YOU'RE INTERESTED! Profs generally want to keep students who already have experience in their labs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBCStudent128 Posted November 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 You could ask your supervisor if it was possible for you to take on a bigger project over the summer. Volunteering in a lab is generally not very productive since most of your time is spent in class, but it allows students to get their toes wet before jumping into research. Do you like the research your lab does? Do you like the people in the lab? It doesn't hurt to approach your supervisor when they're not busy and just say "hey dr. _____, I'm really enjoying my time in the lab, and I was wondering if it was possible for me to work as a summer student". The worst he/she could say is "no" or "i'll have to see what my funding is like". Just make sure your prof KNOWS YOU'RE INTERESTED! Profs generally want to keep students who already have experience in their labs. When do students usually ask for summer positions? I do like the work they're doing, it's interesting and that's why I picked it. Everyone in the lab is nice but I don't really get a chance to meet any of them except the professor's research assistant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McMarauder Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 January is usually when people contact professors that they don't know. In your case, you can ask right now. Again, your prof might tell you to get back to him/her at a later date, but you have an advantage over everyone else who might want to contact your prof in January for a summer position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedPen Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 My feelings on this are: never volunteer for too long in a lab, especially when you are just doing menial work. They are using you for free labor and you are not getting much out of it. You're not really "helping" anyone and you're not exactly learning much. Find something more meaningful and interesting. Yes, I know I'm cynical but there is no reason to be someone's free lab slave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerena Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 Short and simple: I think you should look for stop and look for something better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBCStudent128 Posted November 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 Yea I do not want to be doing this for long time but the only thing I'm worried about is when I looked for other labs before this, none of them really offered me a 'good position'. I thought since I had no experience, might as well gain experience in this lab. (Not really gaining much experience though). So do you guys think if I ask for a 'better position' and they turn me down, I should stop ? I was under the impression that most students did not do much work in their lab during school years. I mean I am putting about 4~6 hrs / week on this lab so it's a bit of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiceWine Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 Yea I do not want to be doing this for long time but the only thing I'm worried about is when I looked for other labs before this, none of them really offered me a 'good position'. I thought since I had no experience, might as well gain experience in this lab. (Not really gaining much experience though). So do you guys think if I ask for a 'better position' and they turn me down, I should stop ? I was under the impression that most students did not do much work in their lab during school years. I mean I am putting about 4~6 hrs / week on this lab so it's a bit of time. it's beneficial as long as you can justify why you are doing it and what you have learned while doing it.... I don't think it hurts to discuss with your PI for a "better position" but as you will probably learn ......4~6 hrs/week is probably minimal to run a proper experiment.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovestruck Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 OH DEAR when did people start to associate volunteer in a lab for a few hours with publications and all this pride and glory???? First off, you need to be GRATEFUL that you are even allowed to count cells. Especially since it seems as though what you're doing is being used (i.e. in grant proposals, etc), the fact that you are participating in experiments is a big deal. Yes, it may seem menial, but what do you expect? You have no experience and are a huge liability in any lab. Essentially, as with everyone who is just starting in a lab with no previous experience, you are most likely to mess up, waste money and time and be a whole lot of work. So the fact that you are getting to do something at all is a testament to how much this prof trusts you and that you have been doing a good job so far and are allowed to continue! As for not seeing you're prof, I ask you: so what??? I'm doing a MSc right now and I haven't seen my prof in a month. However, his research assistant is around for when I need it and I've been doing really well. In research, the prof is called a "supervisor" but holds a completely different job title then the "supervisor" in a business setting. If you are doing good work, the prof does not need to see you at a microscope counting cells to know it. He see's it in your results and when he consults with your labmates and hears how you are doing. That is very typical in most labs, especially one's with profs that are well renowned and way to busy to babysit. Especially since you are a volunteer undergrad student, you are ANY profs lowest priority. I've worked with many a professor in undergrad and even the ones that do care will still push you aside the minute a grad student has a concern. It's normal and it's your position in the hierarchy. I'm not saying he should treat you like **** but I am saying that you need to readjust your expectations. Lastly, if you are unsatisfied, then talk to the prof. If you present your dissatisfaction in the way you have, the prof will think you are ungrateful and immature and not aware of how lucky you are. But if you present the situation not as a problem, but that you just want to learn more and bring up a project that you could help with, you will have more success. Talk to grad students and see if anyone could use your help? Ask around the lab for more to do. Talking to the prof should be your LAST resort after you have asked all and any labmates if there is anything they need. If you want to look for a new lab for a new experience, then do so! The experiences you have already gained may seem menial but it's something and that will help you immensely with getting another position. But understand that few profs will really be giving you much more in terms of work (at least during the school year) and few will even want a student that can only commit so few hours. With only 4-6 hours a week of commitment, you will pretty much only be assigned menial tasks since there isn't time to do much more. I think people need to understand that the very very very VERY last thing most profs need is an undergrad volunteer during the year. I've heard this from dozens of profs. Most take undergrads because they want to give the student a chance to participate in research. Some do take advantage of the free labor but for the most part, they are letting you play a role in whatever capacity they feel comfortable (i.e. they don't think you will majorly mess it up). If you want to really contribute to a project, then do a summer NSERC or see if anyone will take you full-time for the summer (paid or unpaid). Once you're in the lab 40+ hours a week, then you can have expectations and a greater role in the lab! Sorry for the essay!! Just had a lot to say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerena Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 If you want to really contribute to a project, then do a summer NSERC or see if anyone will take you full-time for the summer (paid or unpaid). Once you're in the lab 40+ hours a week, then you can have expectations and a greater role in the lab! You nailed it with this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedPen Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 OH DEAR when did people start to associate volunteer in a lab for a few hours with publications and all this pride and glory???? First off, you need to be GRATEFUL that you are even allowed to count cells. Especially since it seems as though what you're doing is being used (i.e. in grant proposals, etc), the fact that you are participating in experiments is a big deal. Yes, it may seem menial, but what do you expect? You have no experience and are a huge liability in any lab! No one needs to be grateful for being allowed to count cells. Gratitude should only come into play when someone in the lab takes time to teach you something, not when they make you do menial, b!tch work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovestruck Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 No one needs to be grateful for being allowed to count cells. Gratitude should only come into play when someone in the lab takes time to teach you something, not when they make you do menial, b!tch work. The OP said "all I do is count cells and collect data". To me, that doesn't sound menial. If the experiments in that lab involve counting cells, then they count cells! The only way to avoid said cell counting is to pick a lab that doesn't count cell! If this lab was doing experiments that involved PCR, would it be menial for the OP to do PCR runs? They are learning how to do a technique. The technique the prof has assigned them to learn corresponds with the number of hours they have to commit. What other tasks could one do in 4 hours a week???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovestruck Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 It doesn't matter what Johnny labtech masters phd Asperger's research thinks. What matters is what are you going to get out of it? No pub, no ref, no money = no point. Please do tell me in what lab a totally unexperienced undergrad with 4-6 hours a week to give will get a pub, one-on-one time with the prof to get that amazing reference and money?!??!?!?!?! If this was a summer NSERC, then yes I agree with you. But for the time and experience they have, those 3 options aren't going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovestruck Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 Plenty. You just gotta look in the right places and be forward. Doing intellectually bereft b!tchwork in a lab with no opportunities for networking or getting credibility in the form of a publication is a severe waste of time and effort. I think we can both agree that this lab job serves absolutely no purpose for the student if the student is aiming for med. If the student manages to find one of those profs that will offer more involvement in a project then what he gets now, I agree he should go for it. In my experience, it's hard to find a prof that will give you a lot to do when you don't have a lot of time to commit. In undergrad, I had previous research experience from a summer job and good grades. I interviewed around 10 profs for research volunteering during the year and all said if I couldn't commit around 20 hours a week, I'd do things like count cells, etc. I ended up finding a prof that let me do more, but only because of some previous experience I had that made me more qualified then most. So I do agree that if OP can get a position with money, pub and ref GO FOR IT! However, it's not common (at least at my school, which is one of Canada's biggest) and takes a special prof and a special kinds of applicant to find it. In terms of med, I think it's what OP gets out of the research that matters. A pub is amazing and as is money. But if OP learns at least something, I don't think it's a complete waste. It sure beats no research experience!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charmer08 Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 It doesn't matter what Johnny labtech masters phd Asperger's research thinks. What matters is what are you going to get out of it? No pub, no ref, no money = no point. Are you being serious? Do you think the volunteer resources at the hospital you're volunteering at will write you a reference letter for medschool? What about heart and stroke foundation, cancer society... why do people volunteer for those organizations? If you're only volunteering for the sake of pub (I don't understand this one... he has just started research and is thinking of getting a pub?), ref "for medschool" (the prof will write him a ref letter but I guess it will not be a strong one), money (he shouldn't be looking to volunteer if he wanted the money in the first place), then its not worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovestruck Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 Are you being serious? Do you think the volunteer resources at the hospital you're volunteering at will write you a reference letter for medschool? What about heart and stroke foundation, cancer society... why do people volunteer for those organizations? If you're only volunteering for the sake of pub (I don't understand this one... he has just started research and is thinking of getting a pub?), ref "for medschool" (the prof will write him a ref letter but I guess it will not be a strong one), money (he shouldn't be looking to volunteer if he wanted the money in the first place), then its not worth it. YES! This is another part of what I was trying to say but you articulated it much better then me. What is important for meds is what you get out of your volunteering not only in terms of acknowledgement (pub, money, etc) but in terms of personal growth, learning compassion, maturation, doing something for others, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charmer08 Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 Doing intellectually bereft b!tchwork in a lab with no opportunities for networking or getting credibility in the form of a publication is a severe waste of time and effort. I disagree with that statement. I have friends who started with volunteering in the lab and then ended up being offered a job in the same lab. Its never a waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovestruck Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 uhm I work for a prof... its 4-6 hours and I'm the only one who works with him so one-on-one time with the prof is not a prob... and I get paid There are professors that hire students to be part of the research project... its common and they are usually 5-10 hours. Lucky you! If the lab is small then one-on-one time is more likely of course. In a lab of 40, it's a little less likely. At my school, there was options to work with profs but they were 15-20 hours a week. Usually, people that got these positions worked on weekend, had light courseloads or never slept. I managed to snag a position working 12 hours a week paid. However, while I was only paid for 12 hours, I worked more like 20 hours since the job required more time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepontrying Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 To the OP, if you cannot find a better position, then just stick with it. Like lovestruck said, it's better than no research experience at all, and your current b!tch work experience can help you get a better position down the road. If you are looking for a pub opportunity already as a volunteer who commits only 4-6 hours/week without much experience, I think you're delusional. Research is tough and publication takes alot of time and work. You might be included in the acknowledgement part and that's it for the most part, if at all. You should ask the prof if you can participate more in some of the studies during summer as a full-time lab assistant, something down that line. Knowing that you can commit a certain number of hours and that you are already part of the lab team, you can probably do some real research and get your name on the paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goleafsgochris Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 I disagree with that statement. I have friends who started with volunteering in the lab and then ended up being offered a job in the same lab. Its never a waste of time. lol getting a job/a position in which you can get a publication in a lab should not exactly be a REWARD. I totally agree with brooksbane. I have been in 2 labs in my life, and both times from the start I was in a position where, if the project got published, my name would be there. "Its never a waste of time?" Are you joking?!?!?! Even you must admit that this sweeping statement is an exaggeration. Counting cells to say you were somehow "involved" in a lab that doesnt value you enough to put your name on a pub sort of seems to fit the precise definition of waste of time. Just being tangentially related to research will not help you for med in any way lol. I dont mean to be harsh, but hopefully you and lovestruck are undergrads, which may sort of excuse this delusion that its somehow helpful to be total lab slaves. Really hope you guys arent just toying with the OP, which would just be mean lol. I realize its just my experience, but I did interviews for mac med while I was in meds, and the OP's project would be less than useless from what I saw. My advice: quit. Look for a research project where you can take a larger role. It would help to look to labs with many small projects on the go/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charmer08 Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 My advice: quit. Look for a research project where you can take a larger role. It would help to look to labs with many small projects on the go/ Honestly speaking, he should be looking for a position while hes volunteering. If he quits and can not find a better position, he will have nothing. Don't forget, he's in his second year... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goleafsgochris Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 Honestly speaking, he should be looking for a position while hes volunteering. If he quits and can not find a better position, he will have nothing. Don't forget, he's in his second year... I must have glossed over that, fair point. I didnt start research until November of 3rd year. Honestly, in that case, you have a lot more time to work with. I would be strongly looking for projects with more involvement this coming summer/3rd year if you cant get it from this lab. I suppose if its not affecting your grades, the current lab isnt HURTING, as almost no one is that involved in second year. Just dont get stuck there too long term! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lactic Folly Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 I'd encourage people to look beyond bench research if they are at all interested in other areas. With more qualitative projects, an undergraduate student can take the lead on a project and write it up for presentation within a summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBCStudent128 Posted November 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 I'd encourage people to look beyond bench research if they are at all interested in other areas. With more qualitative projects, an undergraduate student can take the lead on a project and write it up for presentation within a summer. What do you mean by qualitative projects? I guess I will ask the assistant for a position where I'd be more involved with a project in a month or so. I do not feel that I can find myself a lab right now where I volunteer 4-6 hours/week and get pub/ref/money. I honestly don't expect a publication/money, just looking for experience/reference letter/volunteer time. I've been getting mixed advice from people. Some people say that you can't expect a better position during school year when you're only putting in 4-6 hours/week and some say otherwise...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happy_happy Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 I disagree with that statement. I have friends who started with volunteering in the lab and then ended up being offered a job in the same lab. Its never a waste of time. I am also volunteering in a lab for 4/hr a week. The reason I am doing so is because I want to get to know the people from the field. As well, if you are complaining that you are not seeing your supervisor prof, then send her/him an email to talk. Don't expect them to contact you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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