medguy5367 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 This applies to both pre-meds and medical students. Psychiatry has GREAT lifestyle hours and potentially great pay. You are rarely on call. So why is there so little interest in going into psych?? I don't know very many people in first or second year med school who are interested in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Let'sGo1990 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 This applies to both pre-meds and medical students. Psychiatry has GREAT lifestyle hours and potentially great pay. You are rarely on call. So why is there so little interest in going into psych?? I don't know very many people in first or second year med school who are interested in it. Haven't looked into it much but from what I can tell I don't think I'd like the environment. Seems depressing. =\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 short story, because psychiatry isn't "objective", and having a residency in psychiatry doesn't make you an "expert" in what you do, the general public is less ignorant of the conditions psychiatrists handle so they can call their bull**** more often than other doctors' bull****, the patient population isn't the greatest if you don't like dealing with people with psychiatric problems (many people don't!), there's more of a level of helplessness in some circumstances, sometimes you can try your best and your goal is to keep the patient alive as long as possible, because they probably will commit suicide. it's also discomforting that there are no real algorithms or formulas in the real world practice of psych. This applies to both pre-meds and medical students. Psychiatry has GREAT lifestyle hours and potentially great pay. You are rarely on call. So why is there so little interest in going into psych?? I don't know very many people in first or second year med school who are interested in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 lol, and i was talking about outpatient psychiatry in a private setting... inpatient psychiatry is like everything i said above * 5 Haven't looked into it much but from what I can tell I don't think I'd like the environment. Seems depressing. =\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixFlare500 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Talking to the same patient for a whole hour at a time with no hands on stuff doesn't seem that appealing to many people. And I don't know what kind of potential psych has for money but from what I've seen it's at the low end of pay, right there with peds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 The pay's generally not that great. You have to deal with a lot of no-shows, which affects your pay a fair bit. I think the main reason is just the nature of the discipline itself. It's quite different from most other specialties. There's a lot more talking as opposed to hands-on stuff, there are fewer strict guidelines and algorithms, there are fewer big, randomized studies to back up the methods, and the patients can be difficult to communicate with and, especially when it comes to acute presentations, may view you as an adversary, which is not generally the case in most of medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medguy5367 Posted November 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Funny, because the abstract nature of psych and the ambiguity/subjectivity is what extracts me to the field. As for salaries, here is what a quick search yielded on Google: $108,000 to $380,000 per year. Certainly not bad, and not as low as pediatrics by any means? http://www.ornh.mb.ca/careers/pdf/PSYCHIATRIST.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Psychiatry has GREAT lifestyle hours and potentially great pay. You are rarely on call. I'm interested in psychiatry. Because it's INTERESTING Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medguy5367 Posted November 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Even this entire thread seems to have venom dripping from it... Why does this "attitude" come up whenever there is a discussion on psychiatry? And muse87, correct me if I'm wrong, but do you believe psychiatry to be practically useless as far as improving the quality of life of a mentally ill patient goes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 I'm interested in psychiatry. Because it's INTERESTING I like the theory. Not the practice. It's exciting to read about borderline personalities, but not to slog through DBT with them for a year with the end result being reduction of ER visits from 10 per year to 8 per year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 i love psychiatry! it's the only thing i would have done in medicine, but that's because i love everything most people hate about it, i love the subjectivity, i know every patient is different, and that the patient, not me, is the expert of what's going on inside their mind, i know we don't know how all the meds work and i would tell all my patients that, i don't care if other doctors respect me, i have a deep interest in philosophy, phenomenology, psycho-pharmacology, altered states of consciousness, sociological factors on mental illness, diet and mental illness, and would schedule my appointments in at least one hour blocks (and would run late if a patient needed it). the unfortunate part, is most psychiatrists don't feel this way, so in general i have very little hope for psychiatry, but i do greatly believe in individual psychiatrists who see psychiatry for what it really is. And muse87, correct me if I'm wrong, but do you believe psychiatry to be practically useless as far as improving the quality of life of a mentally ill patient goes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebouque Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Ahaha nice, it's been a while since a funny troll like ryancouture was on this forum. Will he last longer than his predecessors? Psych is extremely appealing, and in my med school it's not the most competitive specialty, but it attracts quite a few people. The clientele is fascinating (from manic disorders to psychosis to catatonic depression treated with ECTs). Also, as a few people pointed out, the guidelines are very flexible. Therefore it's a real intellectual challenge to play with the medications. Diagnoses are purely based on clinical observation, no labs, no x rays (some may view this as a negative point). No physical exams for those who hate physicals (those people do exist in med and theyre not as rare as you'd think). People suffering from mental problems live extreme distress and pain, and helping those people is extremely rewarding. Unlike other specialties where the sick patients see the end of the tunnel, the person in the midst of a major depressive episode may be convinced that he'll never get better. The symptoms/signs are not as ''subjective'' or ''vague'' as some people might think. When someone has a psychosis, a manic episode or even borderline personality it's quite frank. It's IMPRESSIVE to see the effects of medication on someone's behaviour, which helps us understand the chemistry of our brain (we are highly sophisticated chemical machines). You can do psychotherapy, even though psychiatrists tend to leave that to psychologists (that may be regarded as a negative point). There is inpatient and outpatient work. etc. Psych is a really great field, however in our overcrowded system psychiatrists usually can't afford to spend a whole hour with every single patient. Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medguy5367 Posted November 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Ahaha nice, it's been a while since a funny troll like ryancouture was on this forum. Will he last longer than his predecessors? Psych is extremely appealing, and in my med school it's not the most competitive specialty, but it attracts quite a few people. The clientele is fascinating (from manic disorders to psychosis to catatonic depression treated with ECTs). Also, as a few people pointed out, the guidelines are very flexible. Therefore it's a real intellectual challenge to play with the medications. Diagnoses are purely based on clinical observation, no labs, no x rays (some may view this as a negative point). No physical exams for those who hate physicals (those people do exist in med and theyre not as rare as you'd think). People suffering from mental problems live extreme distress and pain, and helping those people is extremely rewarding. Unlike other specialties where the sick patients see the end of the tunnel, the person in the midst of a major depressive episode may be convinced that he'll never get better. The symptoms/signs are not as ''subjective'' or ''vague'' as some people might think. When someone has a psychosis, a manic episode or even borderline personality it's quite frank. It's IMPRESSIVE to see the effects of medication on someone's behaviour, which helps us understand the chemistry of our brain (we are highly sophisticated chemical machines). You can do psychotherapy, even though psychiatrists tend to leave that to psychologists (that may be regarded as a negative point). There is inpatient and outpatient work. etc. Psych is a really great field, however in our overcrowded system psychiatrists usually can't afford to spend a whole hour with every single patient. Peace Thanks for the response. It boggles me how psychiatry draws out such strong reactions (positive or negative) from both laypersons and other medical specialists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bones Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 In my class, we matched 12 (!) people to psych. It was a very popular choice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renin Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 I quite love psychiatry, thank you very much. I get to have very fulfilling and rewarding relationships with my patients; and it is definitely an area of medicine where empathy and patience is valued. As for the "lack of work" required; after a 1 hr interview, I'm much more mentally exhausted than working a full day as a Human Retractor in Surgery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goleafsgochris Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 The money they make is brutal. As low as 110k for a new dr is toronto. Average in toronto about 140-150k. I know some dont care, but I do. And I did look into it significantly, and have seen the real numbers from real psychiatrists before you guys call me out (I am a resident in a related field now with slighty worse hours but way better pay...rhymes with "meurology" lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medguy5367 Posted November 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 The money they make is brutal. As low as 110k for a new dr is toronto. Average in toronto about 140-150k. I know some dont care, but I do. And I did look into it significantly, and have seen the real numbers from real psychiatrists before you guys call me out (I am a resident in a related field now with slighty worse hours but way better pay...rhymes with "meurology" lol) ??? Have you looked at the blue book? Look at the salaries for all B.C. physicians. Plenty of psychiatrists making 300k to 400k. I saw the occasional 500k+. And there's one's that make 40k to 150k, which I'm assuming are part-timers pulling the average down?? Anyway, please elaborate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/publications/salarydisclosure/2011/hospit11.html There seems to be many of them earning in the 250-300K+ range - there are lower salaried ones as well but they should be part time or maintain an additional private practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/publications/salarydisclosure/2011/hospit11.html There seems to be many of them earning in the 250-300K+ range - there are lower salaried ones as well but they should be part time or maintain an additional private practice. oh and those positions also generally have benefits etc, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goleafsgochris Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 oh and those positions also generally have benefits etc, etc. Note I said In toronto lol, Ill expand later when I have time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 Note I said In toronto lol, Ill expand later when I have time over saturated market? We are all going to have to deal with things like that in the coming future with large parts of the doctor shortage ending and some attempts at cost savings from the government. My point I guess is that if you like psych well then there is definitely money in it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dany Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 here are my 2 cents 1) lack of doing something "concrete" or "physiological" or whatever you call. On the other hand, you CANNOT describe your job as "psychological" either: disregarding what your blabla is with your patient for half an hour (!) or even longer, your final therapeutical plan always comes down to prescribing pills ----- and maybe ----- REFER to psycholoGISTS for the "real" psychological treatment see? you are neither: you don't deal with physical diseasese, and you (can only) use physical ways (i.e. Rx) to treat mental disease 2) did OT talk about great money? in Quebec it's 130k, and elsewhere in Canada, the pay is still lower than fam doc https://secure.cihi.ca/estore/produc...=en&pf=PFC1566 (PLEASE, for those sacred, unselfish, coming-to-med-to-save-human-being premed101ers, don't tell me that 130k is A LOT OF $$$ as those "average" ppl who work at McDonald's earn only 20k... ) that being said, I agree with the OT's points about great hours, good lifestyle PLUS: Dealing with psychiatric patients is NOT as horrible as you might think, well, that's my personal experiences from my 2-months rotation in psych Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 So clearly if you get into med school, you aren't going to become a psychiatrist! However, in most of medicine and surgical specialties, you will see the same thing over and over, and prescribe the same meds over and over (you want ortho? you are pretty much always going to be prescribing ancef, aka orthocillin!). Some specialties are more procedure based than others, psych isn't the only hands off specialty. In whatever surgical specialty you do, you will end up doing the same procedures over and over. Yes, but every gallbladder is different. I don't know if the "complexity" of surgical specialties is really very comparable. I am not sure I understand your comment about the field being "merely psychology" with just being able to prescribe medications that help. Isn't that what most other MDs do? Prescribe medications that help? (or are supposed to help!) In terms of complexity. Psych is probably far more complex than most fields, which is why it is such a challenge and remains so difficult to treat psychiatric disorders. Certainly more complex than putting in a knee replacement, or taking out a gallbladder. I think it kinda depends on the way psych gets practised. Human minds are almost impossibly complicated, but in terms of what we can actually do to treat illness, the real complexity comes in forms of psychotherapy and the "talking" side of psych. Rightly or wrongly, I feel that this is de-emphasized in much practice and certainly is in the kind of education we receive as medical students. I suppose there's a fine line as many think we spend too much time on psych as it is, but we'd do well as physicians to spend more time thinking about our patients thoughts and feelings as much as their gallbladders. Having said that, I don't think that doing a review of psych symptoms and arriving at a provisional diagnosis of depression or mania and then prescribing accordingly is as complex as many surgeries. Cholecystectomy certainly is simpler in theory, but the artisanal training that goes into doing it properly, safely, and without complication is not. That being said, there isn't a whole lot we actually fix in medicine, whether in the field of psychiatry or not. The exception being most surgical specialties - cause they actually cut the problem out. An important role of the MD is to be a "healer" and that doesn't mean fixing things all the time. It is helping the pt through tough times, making things better when you can't fix them completely, helping them have the best quality of like they can have etc. This is an often neglected role of the MD. But it is important whether in psych or not. Agreed!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justletmein Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 here are my 2 cents 1) lack of doing something "concrete" or "physiological" or whatever you call. On the other hand, you CANNOT describe your job as "psychological" either: disregarding what your blabla is with your patient for half an hour (!) or even longer, your final therapeutical plan always comes down to prescribing pills ----- and maybe ----- REFER to psycholoGISTS for the "real" psychological treatment see? you are neither: you don't deal with physical diseasese, and you (can only) use physical ways (i.e. Rx) to treat mental disease FYI, many psychiatrists do cognitive based therapy and/or psychoanalysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medguy5367 Posted November 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 2) did OT talk about great money? in Quebec it's 130k, and elsewhere in Canada, the pay is still lower than fam doc https://secure.cihi.ca/estore/produc...=en&pf=PFC1566 (PLEASE, for those sacred, unselfish, coming-to-med-to-save-human-being premed101ers, don't tell me that 130k is A LOT OF $$$ as those "average" ppl who work at McDonald's earn only 20k... ) Now this bugs me. Did you not see the several links that have been posted suggesting psychiatrists average 250k and plenty of them make 350k+ ??? And to top it all, your link doesn't work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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