Commercial Pilots

[JMD]

Quick question for everyone on these forums:

 

What is your opinion on commercial pilots? Do you think the job is respectable? Hard to get into? Difficult? You don't need to know much about the aviation industry. I just want people in non-aviation related positions opinion's.

 

Thanks

[future_doc]

It is a highly respectable job. Good benefits, high pay, high pension, early retirement. The problem is getting your hours and then getting a job with a commercial airline. Once you do so and you are on an international flight, you are able to save a fortune in taxes. For example, there are pilots with AC doing the Toronto-London flight who have taken up residence in Barbados. They moved there with their families, raise their children there and fly into Toronto, to begin their flight schedule. They pay income tax in Canada only for the small portion of the flight in Canadian airspace. And for the balance of the trip, they pay a 15% w/h tax and pay no taxes in Barbados b/c they only bring into the island capital and not income. Their living expenses are well covered by the taxes they saved with money to spare.

 

Other pilots take international jobs for private aircraft jetting around Saudi princesses on shopping trips to Paris, etc or for business meetings around the world.

 

But, it takes years to build up your hours and break in. If you lived in Quebec, there is a Cegep that teaches flying, I believe it is a three year course.

[axialpac]

Okay, quick random question for everyone out there. What is your opinion on commercial pilots? Do you think the job is respectable? Hard to get into? Difficult? You don't need to know much about the aviation industry. I just want people in non-aviation related positions opinion's.

 

Thanks

 

Are you serious? I think it's a prestigious job. I've wanted to be a commercial airplane pilot when I was very little but when I was 4 and a half I decided to be a doctor LOL ... seriously though, it does sound like it could be difficult to get into--I believe you have to have a certain amount of hours of flying to become one?

 

It is definitely a respectable job and they make really good money. Right down to their uniforms, with their distinct stripes and of course tailored caps/hats!? You also get to travel the world. I think the only downside of the job is how long away you have to spend away from your family because you're flying all the time and also the hours but then again medicine is sort of similar.

 

I think it's weird how there aren't that many female commercial pilots or is it just me? But I've never seen one in airports etc.

[future_doc]

I know a pilot who makes big bucks working internationally flying a private aircraft around the world. He works two weeks, returns home and has two weeks off. He loves the lifestyle.He is non-resident of Canada for taxes purposes and visits Canada often. He was a pilot by age 19.

[larva]

Okay, quick random question for everyone out there. What is your opinion on commercial pilots? Do you think the job is respectable? Hard to get into? Difficult? You don't need to know much about the aviation industry. I just want people in non-aviation related positions opinion's.

 

Thanks

 

It's a tough industry. It takes many years to build enough experience to even be considered for a job with the airlines. Many pilots are forced to move to remote northern locations to fly for 15-20K a year for 5-7 years before they can move to bigger planes and/or bigger towns. Even then, it will take another 5-10 years before they start making "real" money. Lifestyle is generally horrible until later in the career when you can get on better routes and better planes. Some pilots, as f_d mentioned, work 2 weeks on 2 weeks off, which would be great! However, you are usually away from home for most or all of those two weeks. The earning potential is tied to the level of responsibility. In general, bigger planes- = more money. A Captain will earn more than a co-pilot.

 

I think budget airlines have taken some of the prestige out of flying (not that I mind -I wish tickets were even cheaper). However, I still feel that airline pilot is a respectable job.

 

Once you are working the difficulty can vary. On a nice day, when everything is going right, it's downright boring. It gets tricky when you have to deal with bad weather/mechanical problems/unruly or sick passengers, etc. There is also a lot of pressure. On one hand, there is a company holding you accountable for every litre of gas you burn or every minute the flight is delayed, and on the other hand there is the safety of the crew and passengers. Often, the two are hard to balance.

 

If you have any other flying questions let me know.

[Morzan]

It's a tough industry. It takes many years to build enough experience to even be considered for a job with the airlines. Many pilots are forced to move to remote northern locations to fly for 15-20K a year for 5-7 years before they can move to bigger planes and/or bigger towns. Even then, it will take another 5-10 years before they start making "real" money. Lifestyle is generally horrible until later in the career when you can get on better routes and better planes. Some pilots, as f_d mentioned, work 2 weeks on 2 weeks off, which would be great! However, you are usually away from home for most or all of those two weeks. The earning potential is tied to the level of responsibility. In general, bigger planes- = more money. A Captain will earn more than a co-pilot.

 

I think budget airlines have taken some of the prestige out of flying (not that I mind -I wish tickets were even cheaper). However, I still feel that airline pilot is a respectable job.

 

Once you are working the difficulty can vary. On a nice day, when everything is going right, it's downright boring. It gets tricky when you have to deal with bad weather/mechanical problems/unruly or sick passengers, etc. There is also a lot of pressure. On one hand, there is a company holding you accountable for every litre of gas you burn or every minute the flight is delayed, and on the other hand there is the safety of the crew and passengers. Often, the two are hard to balance.

 

If you have any other flying questions let me know.

 

I've always wanted to fly, literally ever since I was a kid. I decided sometime later I wouldn't become an airline pilot, however one day I still want to fly some aircraft. I'm thinking later down the road, when time and money permits, I'll get a recreational pilot's licence and just fly small 2 seat aircraft

After doing some research, found out it costs about $5k for recreational pilot's licence, not bad

Any insight on this?

[kylamonkey]

I didn't really read Larva's reply before I wrote this- sorry. Still, I have a bit of knowledge about the industry too.

 

I live with my brother-in-law, who is a just-trained pilot. He went through a private flying school associated with a college.

 

It's extraordinarily expensive to get your license. It's seen as a "cool" career and so lots of kids seem to be doing it these days. There are far more grads than there are spots available. As a result, getting your first job is probably akin to getting into med school in terms of numbers, but with a greater amount of luck involved. Lots of people get their license and then an do nothing with it, and if they're not willing to move to the middle of nowhere they will have a really hard time getting a job. Result- sitting around with a very expensive piece of paper and no prospects.

 

My bro-in-law was really lucky. He found a job at a great airline here in Whitehorse, where he grew up. He got the job partially because when he called, they recognized his name as a "local" because one of his high-school classmates was working in the office! Again, luck.

 

He is working loading the planes right now, and will be flying next summer. I think there's always the worry for him though that they will find a way to put off promoting him to a flying position and try to keep him on ground crew. He actually makes a little more money right now as ground crew but he was working about 60 hours per week in the summer. Pilots are not allowed to work overtime.

 

I would say that it's respected, but not especially well-paid. Lots of the jobs available are boring, like larva said. Lots are dangerous (especially up here in the north). People die up here fairly often in plane crashes. His life insurance is very high.

[larva]

I've always wanted to fly, literally ever since I was a kid. I decided sometime later I wouldn't become an airline pilot, however one day I still want to fly some aircraft. I'm thinking later down the road, when time and money permits, I'll get a recreational pilot's licence and just fly small 2 seat aircraft

After doing some research, found out it costs about $5k for recreational pilot's licence, not bad

Any insight on this?

 

The recreational license is a great option. They are easy to get, and give you enough freedom to bomb around with a friend on a nice day. No matter what town you're in, if it has a little airport then there will probably be someone there willing to instruct you!

[apache]

I'm not even kidding, I think it would be one of the coolest jobs ever... I wanted to be a pilot when I was a kid.

 

Okay, quick random question for everyone out there. What is your opinion on commercial pilots? Do you think the job is respectable? Hard to get into? Difficult? You don't need to know much about the aviation industry. I just want people in non-aviation related positions opinion's.

 

Thanks

[Mithril]

Need balls of steel as a pilot. I could never do it. I've got a pretty big fear of flying.

[future_doc]

Some pilots, as f_d mentioned, work 2 weeks on 2 weeks off, which would be great! However, you are usually away from home for most or all of those two weeks.

 

What you have said is accurate but the above is not true. I know a pilot who is off every two weeks and during this time, he is always precisely where he wants to be, e.g., with his kids in Canada, in another location with his g/f or taking his kids on a vacation during break to some exotic spot. He is never in some remote location going out of his mind.

[future_doc]

It's extraordinarily expensive to get your license. It's seen as a "cool" career and so lots of kids seem to be doing it these days. There are far more grads than there are spots available. As a result, getting your first job is probably akin to getting into med school in terms of numbers, but with a greater amount of luck involved.

 

My bro-in-law was really lucky. He found a job at a great airline here in Whitehorse, where he grew up. He got the job partially because when he called, they recognized his name as a "local" because one of his high-school classmates was working in the office! Again, luck.

 

He is working loading the planes right now, and will be flying next summer.

 

So true. I know a pilot (trained by the military) who got his foot in the door at Air Canada years ago by becoming a purser on passenger flights for many years. Then, when AC was hiring pilots, he finally became an AC pilot. He was smart enough to apply for a purser job and then wait it out. And as KM says, luck is involved in the process.

[future_doc]

Need balls of steel as a pilot.

 

True for physicians too where we will be under the gun far more often.

[larva]

What you have said is accurate but the above is not true. I know a pilot who is off every two weeks and during this time, he is always precisely where he wants to be, e.g., with his kids in Canada, in another location with his g/f or taking his kids on a vacation during break to some exotic spot. He is never in some remote location going out of his mind.

 

When you are off you are free to do whatever you like, I meant for the two weeks working. There are ways around this (eg a westjet pilot flying out of Calgary will most likely be home some nights) but it's not a stretch to assume that pilot = lots of time away from home.

[future_doc]

When you are off you are free to do whatever you like, I meant for the two weeks working. There are ways around this (eg a westjet pilot flying out of Calgary will most likely be home some nights) but it's not a stretch to assume that pilot = lots of time away from home.

 

Sorry, my bad. You are absolutely correct. The pilot I know is away from home for 2 weeks straight, living out of hotels and we can be anywhere in the world, waiting for instructions and/of flying, etc.

[kylamonkey]

Sorry, my bad. You are absolutely correct. The pilot I know is away from home for 2 weeks straight, living out of hotels and we can be anywhere in the world, waiting for instructions and/of flying, etc.

 

Yep, and I also have a very good friend who is a water bomber pilot in the summer. He gets his winter entirely off, but during the summer he is living thousands of kilometers away from his family in a pilot/logging camp. It has its benefits, but some serious drawbacks (obviously) too.

[Mithril]

True for physicians too where we will be under the gun far more often.

Yeah, but if you screw up your patient dies or you go to jail.

 

If you screw up in an airplane, the worst that could happen to you is becoming a fireball in the sky.

[future_doc]

Yeah, but if you screw up your patient dies or you go to jail.

 

If you screw up in an airplane, the worst that could happen to you is becoming a fireball in the sky.

 

And you, the physician, are sued for malpractice, where you have insurance cover.

 

However, the worst for the pilot after s/he becomes a fireball is that there is a billion dollar lawsuit for negligence against his estate. And if his widow was foolish enough to accept his estate, let's say his estate owned an insurance policy worth $5 millionn and he owned another million in assets, his wife and family would become penniless after the lawsuit, appeals, fees of lawyers and judgment against the pilot. So, the insurance policy would need to be owned by the wife who is also the beneficiary and she should only accept the estate under benefit of inventory pending clarification of the assets and liabilities of the deceased pilot.

 

Life - and death - is never simple if you are/were a pilot or spouse of pilot.

[JMD]

Thanks for all the great replies. I guess I should explain myself a bit here.

 

On another forum, created for all types of pilots throughout Canada, we were discussing doctors vs pilots in terms of salary. What it came down to was pilots earn more per credit hour (that is time in the air), but doctors earn more at the end of the year.

 

To sum the rest of the thread up after this initial discussion: it started turning into a discussion on why doctors are so much better than pilots, with some people saying "smartest of the smart." Due to the fact I know some doctors in person, I knew they wouldn't say that about themselves. It seems to me, after being a reader of this forum for about a year now as well, that what you really need to become a doctor is motivation and a good work ethic (correct me if I am wrong of course). That being said, getting into medical school seems extremely difficult, so good luck to all you out there!

 

Because so many people from the aviation profession were talking so highly of doctors, I thought it would be interesting to see the perspective of doctors on pilots. Et voila!

 

I noticed on this thread, many people have started discussing salary of pilots and what they do. It is amazing to hear how much you guys know, as I find most non-aviation persons know very little about the industry.

 

To answer some of the questions on this thread; here are the current salary numbers for Westjet pilots (per credit hour):

Year Capt FO

12 178 99

11 177 99

10 176 99

9 170 99

8 164 99

7 158 98

6 152 95

5 147 91

4 143 83

3 138 79

2 134 60

1 130 55

 

Pilots at Westjet generally work around 1000 credit hours per year, so to see the anual wage, just multiply by 1000. Two things to note: 1st: pilots work more than just credit hours, but are only payed per credit hour. Usually a pilot is away from home around 50-100+ hrs per week at Westjet. 2nd: these salaries don't include stock options and per diems that Westjet pilots are guaranteed.

 

There was also some discussions about scheduling. This obviously will vary greatly by which company you work for and the type of flying you do. Again I will use Westjet as an example. At WJA, a pilot books pairings, which are generally 1-5 days of working with another pilot while flying across the network. The pilots are usually away from home throughout the duration of the pairing.

 

Here are some examples pairings: (bold =explained)

 

REPT: 1230L Report 1230 local

FR 10 161 YYC-YYZ 1330 1910 0340 Friday 10th; WJA 161; Calgary-Toronto; 1330-1910 local times; duration 3hrs 40min

FR 10 1234 YYZ-FLL 2030 2339 0309 Friday 10th; WJA1234 (sesame street ) ; Toronto-Fort Lauderdale; 2030-2339; duration 3 hrs 9 min

D-END: 2354L Day end 2354 local

 

REPT: 1350L Report 1350 local

SA 11 1233 FLL-YYZ 1450 1756 0306 Saturday 11th; WJA1233; Fort Lauderdale-Toronto; 1450-1756; duration 3 hrs 6 min

SA 11 1166 YYZ-MCO 2015 2303 0248 Saturday 11th; WJA1166; Toronto-Orlando; 2015-2303; duration 2 hrs 48 min

D-END: 2318L Day end 2318 local

 

REPT: 1215L Report 1215 local

SU 12 1281 MCO-YOW 1315 1606 0251 Sunday 12th; WJA1281; Orlando-Ottawa; 1315-1606; duration 2 hrs 51 min

SU 12 1280 YOW-MCO 1730 2045 0315 Sunday 12th; WJA1280; Ottawa-Orlando; 1730-2045; duration 3 hrs 15 min

SU 12 1231 MCO-YYZ 2130 0013 0243 Sunday 12th; WJA1231; Orlando-Toronto; 2130-0013; duration 2 hrs 43 min

D-END: 0028L Day end 0028 local, MO 13

 

REPT: 1700L Report 1700 local

MO 13 683 YYZ-YVR 1800 2007 0507 Monday 13th, WJA683; Toronto-Vancouver; 1800-2007; duration 5 hrs 7 min

MO 13 604 YVR-YYC 2115 2335 0120 Monday 13th, WJA604; Vancouver-Calgary; 2115-2335; duration 1 hr 20 min

D-END: 2350L Day end 2350 local

 

This will give you a total credit hours of 25:59. Generally a pilot will do one of these type of pairings a week or four a month. This is one of the longer ones.

 

Again, thanks for the help from all of you. I really appreciate it.

[medigeek]

over a 40 year career, whats the risk of a crash?

[JMD]

It definitely depends on what you do. For example, aerobatic flying and crob dusting would be a lot more dangerous than flying for an airline. I know a guy who flew up north for about that amount of time, and he crashed two planes during his career. In terms of pilots killed per 100 000, its pretty high at 88. If you're interested, here is an article on the most fatal occupations, with commercial pilot ranking third apparently: http://listverse.com/2008/08/26/top-10-most-fatal-occupations/

[future_doc]

A pilot with a commercial airline can end up with a six figure pension (with a surviving spouse receiving 50%). If a med student goes into the military while in med school, the student can have a tremendous pension before age 50. However, not so for doctors in private practice where all depends upon their ability to invest, how much is put away, RRSP, etc.

[larva]

Best way to do it is through the RCAF.

 

And yes, it is a bomb-ass job. Unlike doctors, airline pilots don't let stewardesses fly the plane sometimes.

 

I wholeheartedly disagree

 

...unless you are cool with giving up your freedom for min 12 years (flight training + mandatory service)

[future_doc]

I found my notes from 2009 re MOTP, in part, as follows:

 

Vacation is 4 weeks, after 4 years, it is 5 weeks, long serving receive 6 weeks

 

Other: given 5 days per year for professional training (so you can attend convention and then start your vacation!); free medical and dental care; officer’s rank as student; you will be posted to a base medical clinic in Canada

 

Maternity leave of 12 months at close to full pay

 

Excellent pension plan that starts immediately when enrolled into MOTP as student.

 

Entitled to of up to 5 years of specialty training at full pay. For each year of specialty training, you must continue with military for another 2 years, e.g., 5 more years of education at full pay = 10 more years of practice

 

Starting salary of specialist is $187,000 up to $258,000.

 

Pension: after service of 25 years or more, entitled to pension based upon 2% for each year of service (which includes years of study). Pension indexed against inflation once your age plus years of service = 85. Example, 25 years of service at current salary of $234,000 = pension of $117,000/yr, and if retire before reaching “85 above”, pension will be indexed at age 60. So, if you study for 5 years incl. residency and have 5 more years of study after your 4 years (at full pay), you need only practice medicine 15 years, you will have in total 25 years, and a pension of $117,000/yr (plus indexation) at about age 46 – when you are young enough to go into private practice (or, continue with CF at great salary and build up your eventual pension, e.g., at age 56, your pension will be $140k/yr (plus future indexation).

[Dino]

It is a highly respectable job. Good benefits, high pay, high pension, early retirement. The problem is getting your hours and then getting a job with a commercial airline. Once you do so and you are on an international flight, you are able to save a fortune in taxes. For example, there are pilots with AC doing the Toronto-London flight who have taken up residence in Barbados. They moved there with their families, raise their children there and fly into Toronto, to begin their flight schedule. They pay income tax in Canada only for the small portion of the flight in Canadian airspace. And for the balance of the trip, they pay a 15% w/h tax and pay no taxes in Barbados b/c they only bring into the island capital and not income. Their living expenses are well covered by the taxes they saved with money to spare.

 

Other pilots take international jobs for private aircraft jetting around Saudi princesses on shopping trips to Paris, etc or for business meetings around the world.

 

But, it takes years to build up your hours and break in. If you lived in Quebec, there is a Cegep that teaches flying, I believe it is a three year course.

 

I think the thread can stop here. Pretty much everything but minor details and personal anecdotes were covered in this post.

Hats off!