brooksbane Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 ..........llllllllll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostintime Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 You mean PAIRO is not good or something? Otherwise, I would imagine it would be more the school that the resident deals with rather than the province. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lactic Folly Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 Although provinces and schools do vary in their contracts and policies, I think the most important factor on a day-to-day basis is at the program level. For those going through CaRMS: Look at the residents. Are they happy? Ask them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 Problems in Ontario right now IMO: Pairo contract not renegotiated (not pairo's fault), and a government who is adamant that there will be 0% pay increases. This amounts to a pay CUT when you account for inflation. Not being able to switch as a PGY1. Horrible ROS offer from the govt (they pay interest only on your loans during residency in exchange for 5 years of working in the province). That not much money for majorly restricting your practice. Forcing programs to expand the number of residents per year to take extra IMG's, despite many programs stating that there is not enough work for an extra resident to ensure adequate learning. On top of that, many specialties are short on jobs already. Increasing residents will mean mire un/under-employed docs. I will add Quebec treats residents poorly with respect to finances. Now, there are advantages to living in Ontario, so it's not all bad. That being said, as prev. mentioned, programs matter more than provinces. If a program is good it more than makes up for the downsides of a province. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man_2ba Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 So NLengr, a very prolific wise poster, said in a prior thread that Ontario treats its residents like crap. In what ways, specifically? If that's the case, there has to be places that treat their residents well. Where are those places? In which ways are they better to residents? And where are the places that treat their residents worse than Ontario? In what way are they treated worse? This is very important information for those applying through CaRMS this year and every subsequent year thereafter. I am researching this now, I believe Ontario Family Medicine is the best frm what I compare between the feedback of residents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaffeinatedPonderer Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Problems in Ontario right now IMO:Horrible ROS offer from the govt (they pay interest only on your loans during residency in exchange for 5 years of working in the province). That not much money for majorly restricting your practice. But it does seem like something compared to... ?nothing? Which other provinces have government-provided ROS? Program specifics excluded, I believe it's all about the benefits. Compared to most provinces (Alberta excluded), I believe Ontario students and residents still have a rather sweet deal thanks to the previous efforts of OMA/OMSA and PAIRO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 But it does seem like something compared to... ?nothing? Which other provinces have government-provided ROS? Program specifics excluded, I believe it's all about the benefits. Compared to most provinces (Alberta excluded), I believe Ontario students and residents still have a rather sweet deal thanks to the previous efforts of OMA/OMSA and PAIRO. Newfoundland and Labrador offers 25k per year and that only locks you into a one year ROS. I am pretty sure ROS contracts can be had with most governments. Don't get me wrong, something is better than nothing, and if you plan to stay in Ontario no matter what, well it's better than nothing. But the way the govt. gets on, you would think that they were paying off your full student loans or something. As I said before, I think it's a very small amount of money for a very long commitment. Ontario's benefits and salary are nothing spectacular compared to most other provinces. Middle of the pack. The pay is certainly better in several other provinces (the data on CaRMS is outdated now). And the remuneration will fall further behind unless there is a major shift in tone from the govt. The benefits are pretty standard too. The OMA packages (insurance etc.) are available through many other medical associations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor2 Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Ontario's benefits and salary are nothing spectacular compared to most other provinces. Middle of the pack. The pay is certainly better in several other provinces (the data on CaRMS is outdated now). A wait, you're saying the data (ie. pay) on CaRMS is oudated?? where do I find updated info then, specifically pay in BC because it's not that great there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 It was last time I looked. To get the newest contracts you need to look at the residency associations for each province. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaffeinatedPonderer Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 wait, you're saying the data (ie. pay) on CaRMS is oudated?? where do I find updated info then, specifically pay in BC because it's not that great there. http://www.carms.ca/eng/r1_program_salaries_e.shtml#ON NLengr was right about Ontario being middle of the pack. Still, +/-5k seems like a narrow spread for a training program, although every little bit helps (Quebec excluded). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaffeinatedPonderer Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Newfoundland and Labrador offers 25k per year and that only locks you into a one year ROS. Interesting... Curious if this provincial bursary program is competitive, or accessible to all new physicians. Some communities in Ontario also have their own ROS contracts on top of the PAIRO RLIRP, but I'm not sure how widely advertised these are... Still, IMHO at the residency stage of training it's more important how the specific programs treat you than the provinces when your outcomes are #1 Survival and #2 Education. However, this provincial apathy may be reason in part why we are not seeing more benefits from our residency organizations and provincial governments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 http://www.carms.ca/eng/r1_program_salaries_e.shtml#ON NLengr was right about Ontario being middle of the pack. Still, +/-5k seems like a narrow spread for a training program, although every little bit helps (Quebec excluded). I could really put the extra cash of Alberta to good use. It's been updated since I last looked but that isn't to sai it's 100% accurate. Better to check the provincial association websites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Still, IMHO at the residency stage of training it's more important how the specific programs treat you than the provinces when your outcomes are #1 Survival and #2 Education. I agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxime Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Just considering the financial aspect, Quebec is clearly not on top, even though we did have a pretty good pay increase recently, after months of pressure on the government and 4 hours of strike This is pretty minor though in the global scheme of things, considering that residency is always temporary (huge pay increase when you start practising), and that pay does not necessarily translate in good working conditions, which are essential during residency. Even though pay is inferior, we do have very good working conditions (max 6 call days per month, no more than 1 on 4 call (once a month 1 on 3 is ok), respect of the post call day off) with even better conditions coming next year (16 hour on site call (no more 24h call) and other modifications), clear rules against intimidation, the ability to transfer unused study days and such, longer paternal leave... Good working conditions really make your residency easier to handle, even if you make a few thousand less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaffeinatedPonderer Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Good working conditions really make your residency easier to handle, even if you make a few thousand less. Agreed. And more effective for your learning and the patient care you can deliver. Although the jury still seems to be out on whether work hour limitations truly improve patient care... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaffeinatedPonderer Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 And for the love of God please do not select a program that you may think is blowing smoke up your ass on interview day or has a lot of resident turnover or a large FMG contingent. Those programs tend to be of poorer educational quality and prestige and lower morale than programs that do not exhibit such things. Somewhat agree... Based on limited experiences with IMGs/CSAs, I must hazard that their positive contribution to the educational quality of programs may be undervalued. Due to the highly competitive nature of IMG/CSA residency positions, often only "the best" get in. These students often have "residency" years already under their whites from their home country, and at least reasonable proficiency in English. Sure, through their hard work and knowledge they change the environment for other learners, but IMHO this healthy competition pushes residents to be better. However, that's not to say that IMG/Visa Trainee positions may not be stressing the capacity of a training system founded to provide physicians who wish to practice in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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