U of T rejects 2400+ people every year...

[Guest Transparent]

Deleted.......

[UofTkid]

I say, 25% of them are applying for their 2nd and 3rd time.

Few of them may have met GPA cut off but not the mcat cut off even it is not a hard one like Western or Queens but they still apply.

Incomplete applications in terms of any required components.

[future_doc]

It is a numbers game and it makes sense to apply broadly for the minimal cost involved. I would imagine that applicants cover a wide spectrum of proven abilities in academics, in life, in writing ABS and a killer essay. It is not about who is rejected for U/T, rather whom they select for interview and then, for a seat. Applicant pools change yearly in terms of strength. Supply and demand factors control all and adcoms have the ability to cherry pick, which they do. It is also a good source of revenue.

[robinre]

the people who get rejected from 1 university are not necessarily the ones that get rejected from all. u of t's criteria for interview is different from other schools and i'd caution to guess that a fairly large proportion of these 2400 rejectees from u of t DID get an interview elsewhere.

 

u of t is a school that in general, does not reward improvement. for example, i did poorly for all of first year and half of second year, but my gpa since then has been in the 3.9's. regardless, in the eyes of U of T i don't make the cut since my cgpa is too low even omitting the few lowest marks. as well, they dont care about MCAT. my 36 makes no difference to them.

essentially, my point is that the fact that U of T rejects 2400 applicants doesnt mean that 2400 people don't get into medical school. it's less.

 

with regards to who these people are- i would say that since there is a fairly steep price to pay for handing in an application to OMSAS, most of the people who do understand the consequences, and feel that their stats are competitive. it's an expensive mistake to make. im sure there are a few hundred exceptions who are blissfully unaware of the competition that recieve a nasty wakeup call, but i think the main issue is that demand is much larger than supply.

 

there is simply FAR too many well qualified applicants for the medschools in the country to handle. this is good overall for the field of medicine, as it allows med schools to be EXTREMELY selective and means that only the best of the best will become doctors in the end (assuming the selection process reflects true ability - debatable).

[future_doc]

For sure, no med school has the perfect selection process and each med school has varying criteria, which is good, as it is possible to be rejected by many and still have interviews. Competition will only become more fierce in the future.

[jerkstore]

Why more fierce? Just a growing population? More Asians:p ?

[medigeek]

Why more fierce? Just a growing population? More Asians:p ?

 

More pre meds studying harder

 

More pre meds doing standard ECs

 

Grade inflation (boosting marks)

 

More access to helpful aids of different forms

 

Greater population of teens with immigrant parents

[future_doc]

The era of expansion of seats may be over. What if there is a reduction.

[nonstop]

Why more fierce? Just a growing population? More Asians:p ?

 

The existence of the internet.

The existence of premed101.

 

More and more people get "used to" using the internet as an effective source of information. Gone are the times when you had to ask cousins, family friends and guidance counsellors to explain you the path to med school.

[moo]

The era of expansion of seats may be over. What if there is a reduction.

 

There needs to be a reduction. We are already training too many doctors. Cut these diploma mills. We don't have the resources, the population, or the positions to support so many doctors.

 

As for UofT, as someone said, not everyone who gets rejected is a med school reject. My alma mater, Northwestern, when I applied way back when, rejected 10,000 applicants (numbers have changed since then). We accepted something like 175 for a class of 160, for an acceptance rate of 1.75%, yet about 30% of all US MD applicants get in.

[medigeek]

There needs to be a reduction. We are already training too many doctors. Cut these diploma mills. We don't have the resources, the population, or the positions to support so many doctors.

 

As for UofT, as someone said, not everyone who gets rejected is a med school reject. My alma mater, Northwestern, when I applied way back when, rejected 10,000 applicants (numbers have changed since then). We accepted something like 175 for a class of 160, for an acceptance rate of 1.75%, yet about 30% of all US MD applicants get in.

 

wait what

[10wattbulb]

Personally, I think that the majority of people (~80%) who apply to a given medical school will at least go onto that med school's website and look at the requirements and cutoffs before applying. Most premeders are of at least average intelligence and don't have much money to waste, so they're going to be very careful before applying. After all, applying to med school does take a considerable amount of time, effort, and $$$.

 

So, my guess is that ~20% of those who apply are either clueless (due to lack of experience) as to how competitive med school is, or they rush through their application and submit a lousy essay/auto sketch/LORs. In that 20%, I also include those who have an incomplete application, or who have very low stats (eg. 2.8 GPA) and who are virtually automatically eliminated.

 

Now, there are those borderline cases who wishfully apply, knowing deep down inside that their chances of getting accepted are really low. Their GPAs tend to be at or slightly under 3.75, and their MCAT scores might not quite make the cutoffs. Sometimes, their GPA and MCAT is OK, but their LORs/essay/ECs are considerably under-par. These people might represent ~30% of the applicant pool and tend to be eliminated fairly easily as well. But there are always a couple of candidates in this category that are smart and apply very broadly and get a seat nevertheless.

 

Then, there's another 30% of applicants who are fairly strong with GPAs b/w 3.8-3.9 (sometimes slightly lower) and MCAT scores at or slightly above the cutoffs (or slightly below in one section). Some people in this category manage to get an interview if they've got strong enough ECs/LORs/essays, etc. But they got to do very well on their interview to get their seat because they're still at a disadvantage with the final 20%. Many people in this category have a very neat non-traditional background that gives them an edge over the sometimes overly traditional and stereotypical final 20%.

 

Finally, 20% of candidates are stellar super-dedicated med nerds (no offense intended here). 3.9+ GPAs, MCAT scores above cutoffs, fairly strong ECs, good LORs, etc. Ironically, these students tend to be the ones that apply the most broadly (it's often not the bottom 20%, even though that's what most of us would expect). So, these 600 or so ultra-competitive candidates from U of T are in competition with you in most other Ont/Can schools that you apply to as well. They are the ones who are making it tough for you to get accepted into Med school. Most of the candidates who fit this category get in fairly easily if they apply to 5+ Med schools. Now, sometimes ADCOMs get frustrated with the candidates in this class because they're "too perfect to be real." That's why some of them (~1 in 4) are "shocked" to get rejected across the board nevertheless. But some of them actually get rejected because of their poor interview performance or because one of their LORs wasn't that great and raised a flag in the ADCOM. Sometimes, their EC/auto sketch looks too obviously 'fluffed up,' and that's what gets them disqualified.

 

----

These are the broad categories of premeders that I have observed. Now, of course, there's a lot of candidates who don't fit any of these categories, and the percentages I have given are purely fictional (but seem to be somewhat logical when I look at some stats).

[10wattbulb]

There needs to be a reduction. We are already training too many doctors. Cut these diploma mills. We don't have the resources, the population, or the positions to support so many doctors.

 

I really don't agree with you on this, moo. It's easy to make such a comment once you've already been accepted into Med school and are already an established MD. It is in your advantage to encourage a "numerus clausus" policy to keep MD salaries and job status as high as possible.

 

There are many regions across Canada that have a hard time recruiting doctors. Some patients have to wait for months and months on end before they can see a specialist. For Heaven's sake, some people can't even find themselves a family doctor!

[jerkstore]

Yeah half the people I hear from go on about a "Doctor shortage" in Canada, and the other half talk about how there's too many and there's no jobs.

[thehumanmacbook]

It's because of over-saturation in certain areas/specialties, and under-representation in others. Increasing overall medical school enrolment doesn't particularly solve the issue because there is no total predicative factor on where a med student will choose to practice and what he/she will practice.

 

Some schools, like NOSM and the SWOMEN program, have policies in place to try to meet this shortage - others, like U of T, do not and instead choose whatever candidate they see fit. In addition, there have been increases in medical school spots since the late 90s and 2000s, so as you probably understand there are people still in the system who are still residents and medical students not currently practicing or are still training. Some say that the retirement of the boomer docs and concern for shorter working hours for younger physicians will balance it out, but we don't know for sure.

 

Hence it's a complex problem - there isn't so much a shortage overall, but perhaps in certain places and specialties. Family doctors in rural areas is an example; even though someone from a rural background is more likely to return to practice, there is no guarantee for how long and specifically in that speciality. We will just have to wait and see

[10wattbulb]

I've only heard once of a doctor who was 'out of work' and who couldn't find himself a job. But that was because he went into a very strange and uncommon specialty. And no hospital wanted to pay him the huge salary that his rare specialty entailed; they preferred to hire a less specialized (but less costly) MD instead.

 

MD salaries represent ~20% of Ontario's health budget (which itself represents ~40% of the overall Ontario budget). So, that's a big chunk of the pie. But still, I feel that there's a good 20% of the healthcare budget that's wasted on useless bureaucratic stuff (unnecessary reports, unnecessary admin/staff that roll their thumbs in their offices, corruption). I also feel that the gov. wastes a lot of $$$ on many useless programs outside of the healthcare system as well. Hence, resources are more limited than what they should be.

[cardiomegaly]

I really don't agree with you on this, moo. It's easy to make such a comment once you've already been accepted into Med school and are already an established MD. It is in your advantage to encourage a "numerus clausus" policy to keep MD salaries and job status as high as possible.

 

There are many regions across Canada that have a hard time recruiting doctors. Some patients have to wait for months and months on end before they can see a specialist. For Heaven's sake, some people can't even find themselves a family doctor!

 

It's easy for moo to make this comment because he probably has friends who are now finishing their 5 year residencies and additional fellowships and still can't find a job. Seriously. Ask any chief resident in any surgical field what their job prospects are like...it's ugly.

[PhoenixFlare500]

I think the solution isn't to decrease medical school admissions, but to decrease the number of residency spots of several programs and try to encourage more people to do family med.

[aaronjw]

I think the solution isn't to decrease medical school admissions, but to decrease the number of residency spots of several programs and try to encourage more people to do family med.

 

And of course force them to work in rural and underserved areas for a period of 10-15 years with fines equal to their med school tuition + residency salary should they try to abort before then?

[aaronjw]

Why is it that premeds can't wrap their heads around the concept of physician glut and the need for it to be addressed in a holistic and systemic manner?

 

Are you so willing to get into med school now only to be potentially screwed 6-10 years from now when problems will be worse, not better?

[PhoenixFlare500]

And of course force them to work in rural and underserved areas for a period of 10-15 years with fines equal to their med school tuition + residency salary should they try to abort before then?

Where'd you pull that out of? You don't force them to work in rural areas, you give incentives to do it like signing bonuses. Some of my classmates are considering those so clearly it works. And if they pull out, I'm pretty sure they lose the return of service bonus, they don't pay tuition + residency salary.

 

Would you rather CaRMs allow many students to match to specialties with no job prospects in the next 5 to 10 years?

[aaronjw]

I've only heard once of a doctor who was 'out of work' and who couldn't find himself a job. But that was because he went into a very strange and uncommon specialty. And no hospital wanted to pay him the huge salary that his rare specialty entailed; they preferred to hire a less specialized (but less costly) MD instead.

 

MD salaries represent ~20% of Ontario's health budget (which itself represents ~40% of the overall Ontario budget). So, that's a big chunk of the pie. But still, I feel that there's a good 20% of the healthcare budget that's wasted on useless bureaucratic stuff (unnecessary reports, unnecessary admin/staff that roll their thumbs in their offices, corruption). I also feel that the gov. wastes a lot of $$$ on many useless programs outside of the healthcare system as well. Hence, resources are more limited than what they should be.

 

Do some research and write a policy paper on it. When you push on one lever you, often, dramatically affect another.

 

Change requires holistic and systematic change, not a single chop here or a cut there.

 

For example: the poor use health care services 20% more than non-poor. They also have the worst health outcomes next to Aboriginal populations. There's merit in the idea of additional social support to improve their economic conditions will reduce their use of health care services which can free up resources within the system to be redirected to other areas like, for example, increasing OR time which increases the rate as which operations can take place.

 

But who will pay for that addition social support initially?

 

How about for people on social assistance, allowing them to retrain (while on assistance) into a job that's currently, and for the forseeable future, in demand? Right now they can be on social assistance and looking for work but not if they want to retrain for a job tat's in demand. So, by helping them get off social assistance by paying for their training and welfare while in training we'll accomplish three things: increase economic output because thy have a job and disposable income; increase their contribution to society through tax revenues which puts more money into the system; reduces their use of the health care system as they are part of the 20%.

 

Again, who will pay?

 

There are lots of things gov't can be doing but they require holistic changes, not simply chop and cut measures.

 

Overly simplistic model but one that illustrates the complexities of the situation .

 

"Politics is a strong and slow boring of hard boards. It takes both passion and perspective" which means change comes at excruciating small increments for those who want it.

[aaronjw]

Where'd you pull that out of? You don't force them to work in rural areas, you give incentives to do it like signing bonuses. Some of my classmates are considering those so clearly it works. And if they pull out, I'm pretty sure they lose the return of service bonus, they don't pay tuition + residency salary.

 

Would you rather CaRMs allow many students to match to specialties with no job prospects in the next 5 to 10 years?

 

I'm saying that if we're increasing FM residency spots then we need to mandate that they're only for people to practice in rural and underserved areas which must require more than the 5 yr incentives. There must be hefty penalties associated with withdrawing because financial incentives are not working at keeping physicians in these areas. Rural physicians, despite incentives and ROS, are decreasing, not increasing. Clearly, the existing setup does not work.

[10wattbulb]

Sorry guys, but the job prospects in medicine are much better than in many other fields. Speak to the journalists, grad students, artists, scientists looking for tenure track positions, firefighters, people in the manufacturing industry, teachers, etc... Other people have a way harder time to find a job than the MDs.

 

While there are some disciplines in medicine that are not very much in demand, there are very few doctors who don't find work soon after completing their residency. I do however feel that all Med students should be provided with stats and advice on the different medical specialties so that they can have an idea of what the job prospects are like in X or Y discipline before embarking in X or Y.

[aaronjw]

Sorry guys, but the job prospects in medicine are much better than in many other fields. Speak to the journalists, grad students, artists, scientists looking for tenure track positions, firefighters, people in the manufacturing industry, teachers, etc... Other people have a way harder time to find a job than the MDs.

 

While there are some disciplines in medicine that are not very much in demand, there are very few doctors who don't find work soon after completing their residency. I do however feel that all Med students should be provided with stats and advice on the different medical specialties so that they can have an idea of what the job prospects are like in X or Y discipline before embarking in X or Y.

 

 

That's if you can get there and that's a big IF to begin with. You make it seem like it's a walk in the park: 'oh, I'll go into medicine'.

 

Lol