U of T rejects 2400+ people every year...

[medigeek]

Except that it's another country, you can't move just like that.

 

I know, but it's probably easier than doing multiple fellowships waiting for a job.

[medigeek]

That is so funny!! LOL ....

 

The only thing I needed to know when I accepted my job on Manitoulin Island was that they were actually paying me real money for my work and not some monoply money or with Canadian Tire money .... after all I had been an intern working for FREE for a year and that there was a confirmed gym there. I called the gym asked them how heavy their weights went, what equipment they had and I was sold and ready to move with my gym clothes.

 

Number one thing to check. 100% srs

[future_doc]

Yes, in fact, if you like your job so much and are really passionate about it, you may be happy wherever you are.

 

I am prepared to consider possibilities in differentlocations in Canada and USA, that is to say, I am flexible and willing to move and do what is necessary.

[Wayward son]

The only thing I needed to know when I accepted my job on Manitoulin Island was that they were actually paying me real money for my work and not some monoply money or with Canadian Tire money .... after all I had been an intern working for FREE for a year and that there was a confirmed gym there. I called the gym asked them how heavy their weights went, what equipment they had and I was sold and ready to move with my gym clothes.

 

It is nice to feel free enough to go anywhere as long as it has the bare necessities you need. At the same time, I do feel lucky that generally the places I am happiest (small towns) are the places with the most demand for people in the lines of work I have chosen.

[Porsche]

I think there are a lot more qualified applicants then most people suspect. I mean, looking at my school, which is a small school, I notice that A LOT of people want to attend medical school. The only thing is that the one people who are blurting it out it anyone and everyone they say are the people who are under-average. It almost seems as if you know everyone that wants to become a doctor; however, in reality, the people who are really competitive don't go around telling you their qualifications.

 

I think more people know about premed101 & student doctor more than they let on. I mean all I have to type is "premed" or "medical school canada" and this forum is within the top search. Do all applicants apply post here? Probably not. Do they read the various posts here: You bet your ass they do – and that goes for the people who are competitive/average (I say that because I think I am average (3.75 GPA)).

[mig174]

A LOT of people want to attend medical school if they do life sciences. Cause if they don't, what in the everliving **** do you ever do with a life science degree?

 

Arts degree 2.0 but without the social skills.

[10wattbulb]

I think more people know about premed101 & student doctor more than they let on. I mean all I have to type is "premed" or "medical school canada" and this forum is within the top search. Do all applicants apply post here? Probably not. Do they read the various posts here: You bet your ass they do – and that goes for the people who are competitive/average (I say that because I think I am average (3.75 GPA)).

 

No one wants to admit they go on premed101 (everyone wants to remain anonymous), and a lot of people are afraid of posting because, like you've said, a lot of people read this forum (including MDs and maybe even ADCOM members). Also, some don't like getting their perspective challenged in front of so many other people. But I think it's sort of fun to debate with others who are in the same boat as you. Everyone's got such a different perspective , and you can speak and argue a bit more freely with people here than in real life. Note the 'a bit more'. We can also encourage/help one another and share ideas not only with those who post but also with those who read quietly and don't answer.

 

Now, in this cycle ~5,400 people applied to Ont Med schools. Most of these people read this forum because they feel very anxious about the results & what will become of them (esp at this time). There's another 5,500 who are preparing to apply in the next cycle (and maybe 20,000 or so who are thinking of applying in a few years from now) and who search here for any bit of info they can get. Let's face it, the competition is really intense, and the waiting game is unbearably long. This forum helps partially relieve some of us from our uncertainties and helps us stay focused on our goals.

[10wattbulb]

No, there's not a lot of qualified applicants. I hate it when people say this. "Qualified" is a relative term.

 

The problem is that applicants start to look all the same, due to inadequate methods of evaluation.

 

The MCAT is good at distinguishing "bad" from "good" students, but not very good at distinguishing "good" from "stellar" students. Even the AAMC admits that it's reliability goes downhill beyond scores of 12 on any section. It's really only useful for weeding out the morons.

 

GPA is starting to lose its validity with the massive amounts of grade inflation that has been going on lately. At this rate, 15 years from now you're either going to need a 4.0 to get in, or undergrad marks will be treated like grad marks.

 

EC evaluation has always been a ****ing joke.

 

And of course interviews tend to just select hot women and smooth talking guys. Why? I'd rather have one more hot piece of ass in my class than some asshat who raised $10k for cancer research. And I'm pretty sure it's not just me who's guilty of this, conciously or not.

 

The result? Not enough separation between the awesome and the merely acceptable candidates... that's why you always hear "there's just too many qualified applicants this year!..." every year.

 

True, everything is "relative." But let's face it; most people have the aptitudes necessary to become at least a 'good' doctor if they try hard enough. That's why I think Porsche finds that there are so many 'qualified' doctors.

 

Most people who apply to Med school are of at least of avg IQ, have OK social skills, are relatively descent people, are motivated to get in, have some unique life experiences, etc. What more can you ask?

 

I think that what makes the difference b/w a 'good' doctor (your average MD) and a 'stellar' doctor is whether or not they're passionate about what they do, and whether they put their best efforts in trying to become the best doctor they can possibly be. But unfortunately, there's no way for the ADCOM to judge this. You can only judge of this once the person's already well into Med school, but by that time, it's already too late.

[aaronjw]

AtomSmasher makes many excellent points about our flawed selection system.

 

That being said, premeds have a passion for getting into medical school, not for practicing medicine. They can't even know that yet since they've never done it.

 

Not only that, passion is irrelevant when evaluating one's prowess, nor does it predict success. Our evaluation models are useless, and success tends to be associated with dedicated focused practice more than anything.

 

Yet regardless of the selection system flaws, we still churn out competent physicians which begs the question... Can anyone, really, be a Doctor?

[Robin Hood]

AtomSmasher makes many excellent points about our flawed selection system.

 

That being said, premeds have a passion for getting into medical school, not for practicing medicine. They can't even know that yet since they've never done it.

 

Not only that, passion is irrelevant when evaluating one's prowess, nor does it predict success. Our evaluation models are useless, and success tends to be associated with dedicated focused practice more than anything.

 

I agree, you can be passionate about something, but still suck at it. But passion should be used as a flag, those not passionate about Medicine shouldn't be allowed in.

[aaronjw]

I agree, you can be passionate about something, but still suck at it. But passion should be used as a flag, those not passionate about Medicine shouldn't be allowed in.

 

what's the litmus Test for determining passion?

[future_doc]

Highly motivated & enthusiastic that leads to success.

[Robin Hood]

what's the litmus Test for determining passion?

 

Doesn't the MMI evaluate motivation? (yes, I know, there's no perfect way, but we try our best)

[Robin Hood]

Highly motivated & enthusiastic that leads to success.

 

But you can be hightly motivated in something and still suck. I have a passion for Math, but that doesn't seem to help me (or maybe it's because of my circumpstances).

[Robin Hood]

Competent based on our levels of evaluation. Whether that's adequate remains to be addressed.

 

The ADCOM is not composed of gods, so however we do it, we won't be able to find a perfect way to evaluate applicants ability and predict future success.

[future_doc]

Yes. That is why I added success. Enthusiasm, motivation is a necessary ingredient but is insufficient. One needs to be efficient in the way you go about it and those with disabilities need help in determining how to obtain optimum results in a program they can master.

 

For example, where focus comes and goes, the environment is extemely important as is medication and timing. I know one student who had an arrangement to write the exam alone. He took his mediciation so as to have maximum performance at the time of the scheduled exam. The prof messed up with timing and when the exam started late, the student had lost his window of opportunity to maximize results. He is studying a program that suits him, exercise science. Before, he had been in a program of interest that dsid not complement his talents. So, so much is involved.

[Real Beef]

No one wants to admit they go on premed101 (everyone wants to remain anonymous), and a lot of people are afraid of posting because, like you've said, a lot of people read this forum (including MDs and maybe even ADCOM members).

 

I am not sure about that. Perhaps sometimes a faculty member may read a few posts of there school to ensure that it is true and the such ... as was noted a month ago when one med school posted that information re: some of the admissions policies described on premed 101 about their school was incorrect .... however I HIGHLY doubt that AD COMs peruse the posts and try an link premed posters to real applications they have ... they have better things to do I suspect.

 

I spoke to a med school staff member who was my thesis supervisor as to whether she or any of her collegues went on Premed and she said no that they didnt have time for such things.

 

And of course interviews tend to just select hot women and smooth talking guys. Why? I'd rather have one more hot piece of ass in my class than some asshat who raised $10k for cancer research. And I'm pretty sure it's not just me who's guilty of this, conciously or not.

 

 

LOL ... I was guilty of this back in my first year of university! My highschool invited me to judge the king and queen pagent that year having been last year's King of the Winter Carnival. Anyhow my vote went to a girl who I had a crush on all of my grade 11 and 12 years. She wasnt the most talented but damn she was (likely still is) hot ... wasnt the brightest girl but I could forgive her for that She ended up winning ... I was one of three judges only.

 

We are afterall human. Hopefully some of the other interviewers arent as driven by their hormones as you are ... I am hoping to slide in as one of those 'smooth talking guys'

[Robin Hood]

I am not sure about that. Perhaps sometimes a faculty member may read a few posts of there school to ensure that it is true and the such ... as was noted a month ago when one med school posted that information re: some of the admissions policies described on premed 101 about their school was incorrect .... however I HIGHLY doubt that AD COMs peruse the posts and try an link premed posters to real applications they have ... they have better things to do I suspect.

 

I spoke to a med school staff member who was my thesis supervisor as to whether she or any of her collegues went on Premed and she said no that they didnt have time for such things.

 

 

 

LOL ... I was guilty of this back in my first year of university! My highschool invited me to judge the king and queen pagent that year having been last year's King of the Winter Carnival. Anyhow my vote went to a girl who I had a crush on all of my grade 11 and 12 years. She wasnt the most talented but damn she was (likely still is) hot ... wasnt the brightest girl but I could forgive her for that She ended up winning ... I was one of three judges only.

 

We are afterall human. Hopefully some of the other interviewers arent as driven by their hormones as you are ... I am hoping to slide in as one of those 'smooth talking guys'

 

Good thing that there are 12 interviewers for the MMI, that can reduce subjective bias.

[future_doc]

Who said life is supposed to be fair?

[Robin Hood]

Who said life is supposed to be fair?

 

It's worse when we humans contribute to this.

[Robin Hood]

BTW, if you want to reduce the number of applicants, make all the premeds read moo's story, so that those who though med was rosy will realize that it's not the case, and those who are more motivated by money than medicine itself will have to think twice before signing up.

The same should be done to delusional med students and residents.

[Kasiunut]

Good thing that there are 12 interviewers for the MMI, that can reduce subjective bias.

 

Reduce? Maybe. Eliminate? No. Its been established that people who are better looking end up paid more, have higher positions etc than people who aren't as good looking. They are usually more confident and come off more knowledgeable so many people don't even realize that is why they pick/vote for those people.

 

I used to see it all the time when I did interviews at the place I worked. But it can back fire - one guy was a bit too smooth - he started to HIT ON one of the interviewers (who was married!) and she mentioned it to one of the partners. Right away the partner was like "Ok, whats this guy's name? Cross him off the list". This guy blew his chance - the partner didn't even want to look at his resume or grades!

[future_doc]

Discretion & good judgment are so very important. Arrogance has its own rewards.

[lostintime]

Well at least right now, if you want to be a family doctor, it's not bad (YET). But I can see how in the future it might be hard even getting a job as a family doctor. I have seen walk-in clinics during the day in urban areas where the doctor is almost twiddling their thumbs.

[moo]

I am a little confused as to why physicians feel they should be able to finish training and work where they want to work and not have to move to do so. In most every other profession in the modern world you have to move to find work ... hell I moved from East Coast Nova Scotia to Northern Ontario, small community XYZ with a population of 1500 people to get my first job as a registered dietitian.

 

This weekend I am in Thunder Bay at a conference where I have met 2 other dietitians who moved from the East Coast to work in Northern Ontario because of the lack of full time permanent jobs in the area and refusing to accept part time or casual jobs.

 

I think if some final year specialist resident cant find work in the major center they wish to work then I say "welcome to the real world, pal", time to pack your bags and find a place to hang you business sign. I think too many have deluded themselves that medicine is immune to economic and societal changes that have occurred and is still in the golden era ... sorry but med school admission is not the golden ticket to Willy Wonka's chocolate factory.

 

So hopeful premeds/med students cant assume the world will bow to you as soon as you get your MD or complete your residency. Once you are ready you need to compromise as well like the rest of society albeit with a silver spoon rather than a stainless steel one.

 

Yes the problem is what if there are NO JOBS? Do you want to train that long to be unemployed? Do you want to have mountains of debt with no way of paying it back because you're on a 30k salary from an unaccredited fellowship?