The professional-class bubble is bursting

[medigeek]

No, I wanted to see how pm101 defends/responds to my opinions. 4/5 I'm still aiming for med school. Mainly because of the potential for research, and (brace yourselves), prestige. <---Yes I just did that. Bring out your spears and torches LOL:p

I don't have a beef with medicine. What I do detest is when people look down on those who want to go into medicine for material reasons. In the end, it's just a profession.

 

People dont look down on those guys. It's just a few on premed101 and some on SDN.

[nonstop]

So you wanted to make an important life decision based on anonymous internet posts by people that clearly love the medical profession?

 

Making an important decision based on what others think is never a good idea.

 

Isn't that what everyone on pm101 is doing? jk jk

 

I am not at a time when I have to make a life-decision. Today I am leaning towards medicine, maybe after 3 years, half-way through undergrad, I may not be. I try to be as conducive to change as possible. Which is why I plan to do a comp-sci major.

 

I think opinions do matter. Especially where there are no hard facts, they can be a valuable source of information. To be informed is everything.

 

In the end everything that you do is influenced by others so there's that.

[ArchEnemy]

Prestige is illusory and does not exist except perhaps to those who aspire.

 

Touche!

[gluck]

In fact as a doctor, unless you're in emergency med, you wouldn't be "saving" anyone per se.

 

And that, nonstop, is how I know that you aren't in medical school.

 

What I do detest is when people look down on those who want to go into medicine for material reasons. In the end, it's just a profession.

 

And you've clearly never been seriously ill, either.

[ldnk]

And that, nonstop, is how I know that you aren't in medical school.

 

 

 

 

And you've clearly never been seriously ill, either.

 

 

Come on. If you were in the emerg with me for a day, I would have successfully revived 10 asystolic patients before lunch. Go to a Family Doctor's office and you only give those useless antibiotics and Lipitor. Real medicine happens on TV.

[PhoenixFlare500]

Yeah those antibiotics sure are useless, you know, 'cause they cure people and all. I would never take any myself, but that's 'cause my dream is to someday get post-strep GN.

 

I'm sure you've realized this by now, but preventative medicine really does nothing to benefit mankind. You wanna make sure you've only started treating those patients you've been reviving after they've had their heart attacks.

[The Law]

a little fantastical and over the top. I'd like to know where they got their stats for U of T gen surg graduates finding work. Interesting nonetheless, thanks for posting

 

Typical Margaret Wente. Her articles are usually annoying and over the top, despite their occasionally being thought provoking.

[gluck]

Come on. If you were in the emerg with me for a day, I would have successfully revived 10 asystolic patients before lunch. Go to a Family Doctor's office and you only give those useless antibiotics and Lipitor. Real medicine happens on TV.

 

 

10 chars

[Med0123]

Margaret Wente is a hack. Her only skill is making outrageous unsubstantiated claims and prompting angry responses. She's basically a professional newspaper troll.

 

Even if the 15% of U of T Gen Surg graduates working post residency is true, it's not for lack of jobs. There are gen surg jobs in the community outside of the golden triangle. I suspect a huge portion of those moving on to fellowships are trying to return to the Toronto area or other major academic centers.

 

Yeah, this article about gen surg looks like superior-quality trolling.

Of course most of UofT Gen Surg residents will do a fellowship (1, 2 or 3 years), that is the essence of UofT. If she really wanted to express the actual extend of lack of jobs in surgery she could have EASILY chosen to describe the situation of neurosurg or cardiac surg...

 

OF COURSE general surgery residents (as in every single other surgical specialties) are beginning to struggle to secure THE spot they dreamed of in THE academic center where they met Dr Super-duper-cool which was also close to mama and papa and friends due to several factors (less money to hospitals meaning less OR time, too many residents trained...), but globally spots are still available. You have to adjust your plans during residency.

 

When applying to CaRMS I knew the situation of surgery. Did that scare me? A little. Did that affect my career plans? A little as I was interested in neurosurg and cardiac surg in premed (more for the technical challenges than the "glamourous" side of this practice artificially created by medical TV drama) and I published with the program director of one of these fields in my home university. Did I change my mind? Yes as you can see by reading my sig. One can find so many enjoyable jobs if he takes the time to explore them...

 

I will probably work less than last generations of surgeons. Heck, working 45hrs a week instead of 70 is fine for me. Doing 220k ish instead of 320k ish ain't that dreadful (adjusted in constant dollars).

 

Babyboom : from 1946 to 1964 (wikipedia ). Current age of baby boomers in 2012 : 48 to 66 years old (simple maths). Mean age of retirement for MDs : depends heavily on the specialty but let's say 65-70 (max 72-74 for those who lost a lot during the 2008 recession). My point is by the time that I or YOU will be on the market, things will probably be a bit better than it is now or the very next few years. There were an increase in residency admissions for 2 main reasons: improve patients access to MDs AND in prevision of baby boomers retirement.

 

You'll point that there were far less MD per promotion in 1970 than nowadays and that the balance between retirees and new MDs will still be in favor of new MDs, but at least the negative trend currently present will diminish a bit.

 

I hope her article did not question your motivation to become MD! There is hope for us

[medigeek]

Yeah, this article about gen surg looks like superior-quality trolling.

Of course most of UofT Gen Surg residents will do a fellowship (1, 2 or 3 years), that is the essence of UofT. If she really wanted to express the actual extend of lack of jobs in surgery she could have EASILY chosen to describe the situation of neurosurg or cardiac surg...

 

OF COURSE general surgery residents (as in every single other surgical specialties) are beginning to struggle to secure THE spot they dreamed of in THE academic center where they met Dr Super-duper-cool which was also close to mama and papa and friends due to several factors (less money to hospitals meaning less OR time, too many residents trained...), but globally spots are still available. You have to adjust your plans during residency.

 

When applying to CaRMS I knew the situation of surgery. Did that scare me? A little. Did that affect my career plans? A little as I was interested in neurosurg and cardiac surg in premed (more for the technical challenges than the "glamourous" side of this practice artificially created by medical TV drama) and I published with the program director of one of these fields in my home university. Did I change my mind? Yes as you can see by reading my sig. One can find so many enjoyable jobs if he takes the time to explore them...

 

I will probably work less than last generations of surgeons. Heck, working 45hrs a week instead of 70 is fine for me. Doing 220k ish instead of 320k ish ain't that dreadful (adjusted in constant dollars).

 

Babyboom : from 1946 to 1964 (wikipedia ). Current age of baby boomers in 2012 : 48 to 66 years old (simple maths). Mean age of retirement for MDs : depends heavily on the specialty but let's say 65-70 (max 72-74 for those who lost a lot during the 2008 recession). My point is by the time that I or YOU will be on the market, things will probably be a bit better than it is now or the very next few years. There were an increase in residency admissions for 2 main reasons: improve patients access to MDs AND in prevision of baby boomers retirement.

 

You'll point that there were far less MD per promotion in 1970 than nowadays and that the balance between retirees and new MDs will still be in favor of new MDs, but at least the negative trend currently present will diminish a bit.

 

I hope her article did not question your motivation to become MD! There is hope for us

 

 

Moo clarified on the whole baby boomer/retirement thing in another thread. As long as you have a generalist approach you'll be probably okay getting a job *somewhere.* If you are in some deep subspecialty, good luck getting any job anywhere in Canada regardless of retirements. Why? Cause for every person retiring you have 5-6 people waiting to get that ONE position. And you can sure as hell bet 3-4 of them have multiple fellowships/a masters/a phd even. They will be the ones getting that one position.

[tupacandbiggie]

That becomes a philosophical issue.

 

 

 

 

I've never said that going into medicine makes it impossible to leave a legacy. Of course you can do research/go into public policy from medicine and make change.

 

What I meant was that clinical med doesn't "leave lasting change". I should've defined "accomplishment" more clearly.

 

 

Anyone out there scared to call names? Yo dumbass listen up, a person doesn't have to do research or policy in order to make a difference in this world. All the community docs who can save sounds of lives during their span of practice are making huuuuuuge differences in this world. That guy at Macdonalds serving you fries and burgers 2 am in the morning after you partied hard that night IS in fact also making a difference in this world especially to your hungry tummy at the time.

 

and lol at clinical med doesn't make lasting changes. It makes all the changes. All the treatment paradigms shift over time and they all come from clinical research, NOT basic science research.

 

Next time speak after you know something about the field. Otherwise I won't be the only one calling you a dumbass.

[Robin Hood]

Nurses serve a purpose as part of the diagnostic team, increasingly these days as more emphasis is being placed on interdisciplinary medical teams. Nurse practitioners are also very valuable members of the medical community, and they both diagnose and prescribe.

 

Paramedics will be the first hands on many patients, and should be valued for their skills in extremely stressful situations.

 

Physiotherapists are invaluable in recovery for patients. They are extraordinarily valuable to the patients' quality of life.

 

I want t be a doctor as much as anyone on this forum, for my own reasons. But do not be so quick to dismiss other health professionals as lesser professionals because they do not have the same scope of practice. Every member of the health care team is valuable in some way to the patient, and the reality of medicine is that no doctor is an island and needs to be able to value the other members of the care team for what they bring to the table.

 

I know I'm not a doctor, so of course you may dismiss what I have to say, but these are opinions I have heard from family members are friends who are health professionals, as well as MDs I am personally acquainted with.

 

I found it hard to know about nurse's job, especially since I never worked in a hospital. I recognize that they are valuable, but it's the physician how does the biggest of the healing job. Still, I would like to find a place where I can learn more about Nursing, maybe it could be an alternative for me.

Also, yes there are NPs, but getting there is not easy.

[A-Stark]

There are certain professions where the individual is irreplaceable, like research (mostly), social economist, social activist/leader, politician, etc.

 

Well, every Newton has a Leibniz just as every Salk has a Sabin. And politicians?

 

Not only do these jobs have the potential of making long-term and wide-reaching change, if you hadn't existed, the issue that you're fixing would've likely not been fixed until a few years/decades/centuries after. Real accomplishment is when you are able to say that you gave 100 villages in Africa running water when they wouldn't have gotten it otherwise until the next few decades. Accomplishment is being able to say that the economic policies conjured and implemented by you lifted thousands of families out of poverty. Accomplishment is being able to say that you legalized gay marriage through your actions in the parliament.

 

Yeah... incidentally, same-sex marriage came to pass because of lower court decisions and the appropriate responses of some provincial governments. The feds simply confirmed what was already happening.

 

Not "oh I 'save' a few 20-30 people everyday who walk through that hospital/clinic door". In fact as a doctor, unless you're in emergency med, you wouldn't be "saving" anyone per se.

 

"Saving" lives is not something that happens especially often anywhere in medicine, but we can certainly make satisfying diagnoses and perform interesting and - sometimes - definitive curative procedures.

 

Looks like you like the idea of being a doctor. I'd like to be able to say everything like that too. That categorizes under prestige. But does the act of securing an airway or drilling a burrhole make you happy? If it does then I give it to you, you'd be a happy doctor.

 

The "idea" of being a doctor?

 

You have an awfully patronizing approach to this discussion given that you're talking to more than a few people who, you know, actually have some idea of what medicine is like as a job/career/whatever.

 

Maybe one of the reasons why the suicide/depression is so high is because most doctors end up sitting in their clinic, running a business, basically prescribing cough/cold/pain medicine to every other patient when they had the potential to change the world.

 

You think (family?) physicians spend lots of time prescribing Neocitran and cough syrup? Yeesh.

 

I'm not trying to dissuade anyone, but if you tell me that it's wrong to pursue medicine because of the money/prestige and that you should pursue it because it gives you happiness then let me tell you, there's nothing to be happy about in medicine other than the money and prestige.

 

Well, having a comfortable income and being able to enjoy nice vacations and (for me) eating out a lot are hardly trivial concerns. All I really want, though, is a place with a spacious kitchen, in-suite laundry, and newer fixtures. Oh, and I'll be quite happy to be beyond the stage of having fellow tenants who occasionally barf in the elevator on Sunday nights... now *that* was a great thing to see first thing Monday morning at 6am.

 

Anyway, I suggest you stop imputing motivations to other people on such a flimsy and poorly reasoned basis. Prestige comes in many forms, but my preoccupation is with providing service, and to the extent I want to "effect change" or "build things", it is enough to know that something I did "made a difference", even if only one patient at a time. There is tremendous privilege in participating in the medical care of others, and it is a high calling like few others. And I do think the money should be good - we have to pay back our student loans and LOCs somehow (and save for retirement without any kind of organized pension).

[DONGJIE]

 

much appreciated

 

-bump-

[iwishiwasa]

And that, nonstop, is how I know that you aren't in medical school.

 

 

 

And you've clearly never been seriously ill, either.

 

 

 

 

Edit: Nontop, you simply do not have the life or medical experience to make a lot of claims you are making. I know as a teenager/highschooler, that is probably something that is annoying for you to hear. You also probably sincerely believe what I'm saying isn't true. But it is.

 

While I have no doubt that people who chose medicine only for the prestige can develop excellent diagnostic, clinical and surgical skills, they will never be great doctors. That is because being a doctor is something more. There are plenty of patients who cannot be treated medically, but can still be helped. Empathy and kindness will mean more to many of these patients than anything else you can offer.

 

Healing is more than curing disease. Medicine is not simply a profession. If you want to make that claim, at least realize medicine is the only profession in the world where the interests of somebody else are always, ALWAYS placed above your own.

 

 

Good luck with whatever career path you decide to pursue.

 

This is the most naive idealistic piece of garbage I've read on this forum. The only profession in the world where someone else's interests are above your own? hahahaha you need to get out to the real world. This is dumber that that high schooler's posts.

[Birdy]

I found it hard to know about nurse's job, especially since I never worked in a hospital. I recognize that they are valuable, but it's the physician how does the biggest of the healing job. Still, I would like to find a place where I can learn more about Nursing, maybe it could be an alternative for me.

Also, yes there are NPs, but getting there is not easy.

 

My sister is an RN in a very busy ER and I have several more nurses in my family, so the 'oh, they're just nurses' attitude (not saying you were like that, but it's one I've seen often enough) gets my back up a bit. I also personally know an advanced care paramedic, and I can say with certainty that I could not do his job.

 

They really do a lot of work, and they have a great deal more patient contact in the general course of things. As nursing has progressed to teaching a lot more clinical skills, they have become stronger members of the team.

 

Nursing definitely is a viable option for those who want to help people. The BScN is an extremely challenging program, and there are many upgrade options with it.

[megaMooMoo]

This is the most naive idealistic piece of garbage I've read on this forum. The only profession in the world where someone else's interests are above your own? hahahaha you need to get out to the real world. This is dumber that that high schooler's posts.

 

gluck forgot to include professions such as mortgage brokers and real estate agents. after all, these people put OUR interest of owning a home FIRST before pocketing that fat wod of commission: D

[megaMooMoo]

I found it hard to know about nurse's job, especially since I never worked in a hospital. I recognize that they are valuable, but it's the physician how does the biggest of the healing job. Still, I would like to find a place where I can learn more about Nursing, maybe it could be an alternative for me.

Also, yes there are NPs, but getting there is not easy.

 

.....wow, did you get your education solely from medical dramas?

[aaronjw]

.....wow, did you get your education solely from medical dramas?

 

I was think daytime soap opera's where nurses are portrayed as dim witted ravenous sex machines.

 

Oh how I wish lol

[nonstop]

Anyone out there scared to call names? Yo dumbass listen up, a person doesn't have to do research or policy in order to make a difference in this world. All the community docs who can save sounds of lives during their span of practice are making huuuuuuge differences in this world. That guy at Macdonalds serving you fries and burgers 2 am in the morning after you partied hard that night IS in fact also making a difference in this world especially to your hungry tummy at the time.

 

and lol at clinical med doesn't make lasting changes. It makes all the changes. All the treatment paradigms shift over time and they all come from clinical research, NOT basic science research.

 

Next time speak after you know something about the field. Otherwise I won't be the only one calling you a dumbass.

 

It is only human nature for you to aggressively defend your decision, especially when someone is attacking it's very foundation. I'm not offended.

 

I've been lurking these forums for a couple of years and I know the general attitude of the folks around here and I feel that's it's just one big circlejerk that over-glorifies medicine. Seriously. It's just a profession. And I don't understand the deal of "placing your life above others".

You wanna know who places their life above others? airline pilots, ship captains, firefighters. Your life isn't exactly in danger when you're in the OR/clinic treating patients. Oh maybe you'll miss that quality time that you've been planning to spend with your spouse and kids. Well you make sixfigs so don't complain.

[OttawaURookie]

Everyone is a little dumber now for having gone through with this ridicilous discussion.

[aaronjw]

It is only human nature for you to aggressively defend your decision, especially when someone is attacking it's very foundation. I'm not offended.

 

I've been lurking these forums for a couple of years and I know the general attitude of the folks around here and I feel that's it's just one big circlejerk that over-glorifies medicine. Seriously. It's just a profession. And I don't understand the deal of "placing your life above others".

You wanna know who places their life above others? airline pilots, ship captains, firefighters. Your life isn't exactly in danger when you're in the OR/clinic treating patients. Oh maybe you'll miss that quality time that you've been planning to spend with your spouse and kids. Well you make sixfigs so don't complain.

 

As someone who made six figures and still can if I wanted to take on more consulting work I wasn't happy. I worked a lot but in the end the money wasn't the rewarding part that I thought it was.

 

Do I think medicine will offer me that rewarding part that I was missing? I can't say because I am not there but as I try to envision how I can help people and patients given my experiences in coaching youth sport, being a big brother and providing nutritional/exercise coaching (largely for free) I can say that I feel I have a better chance at having a more rewarding career as a physician than I did as a business exec where the SOLE purpose was to make those I worked for gobs of money.

[future_doc]

I feel that's it's just one big circlejerk that over-glorifies medicine.

 

 

Well then circlejerk, to use your words (wash out your mouth with soap), to become an airline pilot, ships captain or firefighter. Find their webiste and leave our as you show no respect. You have lots of growing up to do, shame on you little girl.

[Robin Hood]

.....wow, did you get your education solely from medical dramas?

 

I don't even watch these. But you can't deny that it's the physician who leads the team and it's upon him the fail the responsabilit of patients, so in other terms, it's him who do most of the treatment or sets up the treatment plan.

[Robin Hood]

Well then circlejerk, to use your words (wash out your mouth with soap), to become an airline pilot, ships captain or firefighter. Find their webiste and leave our as you show no respect. You have lots of growing up to do, shame on you little girl.

 

It's funny how he comes to a premed forum, while saying medicine is worthless.