filter105 Posted May 18, 2012 Report Share Posted May 18, 2012 Media manipulation does wonders! that is if you are not the person that media describes, you will never know the full perspective on story and can only believe what they tell you. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/mcguinty-seeks-provincial-allies-in-fight-to-reduce-doctors-fees/article2431541/ As someone who is not a doctor, reading this didn't elicit any emotions... it was only after I read 'comments' (which I do often) it generated slight sympathy towards doctors. + If you mention MP pension, their salary, and perks and further more, and also people in other industry such as hydro : http://opinion.financialpost.com/2011/08/31/get-ready-to-pay-billions-for-hydro-pensions/ "ast year, the Sunshine List showed more than 11,000 workers making more than $100,000 a year at Hydro One and OPG...the numerous Sunshine List employees will each collect a pension of at least $2-million....Defenders of these very generous pensions always claim that these employees contribute their fair share into the pension plans, and so deserve them. As taxpayers, we would normally think a 50-50 split of contributions would be fair, with employees contributing 50% and taxpayers matching it. But over the past five years alone, taxpayers have pumped $1.3-billion into the plan, while employees have contributed only $368-million. Not so fair and sure to create serious pension tensions when taxpayers find out what is really happening in these pension Ponzi schemes." I really don't get why doctors should be the one focused on this witch hunt. They already agreed on 2 year salary freeze. We need more doctors (given the wait time) and I really think system (bureaucracy) needs to restructure before they determine a scape goat. I don't think cuts to doctors are fair, because they don't get any benefits, even though they are technically a government employee.... Talking about system...administration costs at the hospital is amazing. Even if you only graduate from high school (with no further training, but can speak/write English and under the circumstance that you know someone who works there ) its easily 20+/hour...isn't there other efficient system? It seems like there are lot of wasting... I feel that especially when I go into university hospital and behind the receptionist just chats, drinking coffee and make you wait another 5 minutes or so before finally seeing you. Meanwhile, university grads make minimum wage and yes I know people who still work at McDonald's right now and making $12/hour after graduating from university...yes with science degree because labs are not hiring. (so I was quite shocked that with MSc you could ask for 20+/hour at a lab...which labs? where are people hiring? at this point, even though I am against tobacco industry, I might have to apply there too) Anyway, the point of my thread is why is that people only go after doctors? What about nurses? are they not making too much for work/training that they do? I heard from one nurse who told me that you can retire at age 50 (the point to emphasize! you can retire at age 50??? ) and you will earn lot more and that's what most nurses do. Teachers? those who become administrators? do they deserve that much salary? how do you determine this? Police? if they participate in special event they makes so much money on top of their excellent salary, pension and benefits. So why doctors?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixFlare500 Posted May 18, 2012 Report Share Posted May 18, 2012 So why doctors?? Here's a couple reasons that I see. First off, doctors don't really have a union to protect them. I've never heard of doctors being able to go on strike, and even if they did nobody would support them because to the general public a doctor is supposed to be absolutely selfless and do whatever they're told. Teachers and nurses do have unions that really drive the negotiations (although teachers here can't strike so maybe they have less power). Idk about cops. Raw numbers is another big reason. Provincial governments only publish gross billings or salaries for physicians, they don't publish net income after overhead. Most people see these numbers and don't realize that the doctor doesn't actually take it all home. Therefore it's easy for the government to say they're making too much money. Btw there are a couple threads on this issue already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerkstore Posted May 20, 2012 Report Share Posted May 20, 2012 Yeah all those salaries are still getting docked the Ontario 45% income tax afterwards. The government can shove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted May 20, 2012 Report Share Posted May 20, 2012 Yeah all those salaries are still getting docked the Ontario 45% income tax afterwards. The government can shove it. http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted May 20, 2012 Report Share Posted May 20, 2012 Here's a couple reasons that I see. First off, doctors don't really have a union to protect them. I've never heard of doctors being able to go on strike, and even if they did nobody would support them because to the general public a doctor is supposed to be absolutely selfless and do whatever they're told. Teachers and nurses do have unions that really drive the negotiations (although teachers here can't strike so maybe they have less power). Idk about cops. I have always viewed the OMA as pretty much a union - I would argue we have effectively one of the most powerful unions in Canada actually even if it isn't a legal one. Other unions cannot strike either (essential services) so that alone isn't enough to work with. The OMA negotiates for fee increases and rules of conduct..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted May 20, 2012 Report Share Posted May 20, 2012 http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html Really? not sure what you are referring to with that post(?) Those are the federal rates but there are the provincial ones as well on top of that. Few doctors though would with proper tax management be paying 45%. Actually that is one of my concerns about going to salary - we lose a lot of the tax benefits that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspiring-curmudgeon Posted May 20, 2012 Report Share Posted May 20, 2012 I have always viewed the OMA as pretty much a union - I would argue we have effectively one of the most powerful unions in Canada actually even if it isn't a legal one. Other unions cannot strike either (essential services) so that alone isn't enough to work with. The OMA negotiates for fee increases and rules of conduct..... What use is this if the government can just do what it wants? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdy Posted May 20, 2012 Report Share Posted May 20, 2012 Yeah all those salaries are still getting docked the Ontario 45% income tax afterwards. The government can shove it. Federal top rate is 29% (on income over $132,406) and Ontario top rate is 11.16% (on income over $78,043) so any income above $132,406 will be taxed at 40.16% total, which would be the highest possible individual tax rate in Ontario. As everything below those thresholds is taxed at progressively lower rates, the actual effective tax rate would be considerably lower. Factor in the many possible deductions, and it is highly unlikely that a doctor would be paying anywhere near 40% let alone 45%, even on salary. Add to that the fact that many doctors incorporate, which means absolutely massive tax advantages and results in many doctors having a lower effective tax rate than people earning considerably less. Edit: Don't be so bitter about taxes. They paid for the schools you and most of your peers attended (unless you went to private school.) They pay for the police officers who are making sure we have a very good level of control over crime, if your house were on fire, those tax dollars would pay for the firefighters. Your garbage is picked up thanks to taxes, you have roads and sidewalks to bike/walk/drive/take a bus on due to tax dollars. The money that pays physicians and heavily subsidizes postsecondary education comes from tax dollars. The public purse does far more to improve your standard of living than detract from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted May 20, 2012 Report Share Posted May 20, 2012 not sure what you are referring to with that post(?) Those are the federal rates but there are the provincial ones as well on top of that. Few doctors though would with proper tax management be paying 45%. Actually that is one of my concerns about going to salary - we lose a lot of the tax benefits that way. the point is Doctors are not paying 45% in ONTARIO taxes as was implied and few, if any, are likely paying combined taxes of 45% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixFlare500 Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 the point is Doctors are not paying 45% in ONTARIO taxes as was implied and few, if any, are likely paying combined taxes of 45% We get to pay 46%. Good for us... I guess that's why you find so much stuff to try to deduct off your taxes and incorporate. Can you incorporate on a salary or just FFS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdy Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 We get to pay 46%. Good for us... I guess that's why you find so much stuff to try to deduct off your taxes and incorporate. Can you incorporate on a salary or just FFS? From what I've read, salaried doctors cannot incorporate. As they are operating essentially as an employee vs. as a business, it makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 We get to pay 46%. Good for us... I guess that's why you find so much stuff to try to deduct off your taxes and incorporate. Can you incorporate on a salary or just FFS? You cannot on salary - you are an employee not a business person if you are on salary. That and the loss of independence (employees are not supposed to push back against their employers, doctors have to push back at the government all the time) are two of the main reasons I don't like a general salary system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 What use is this if the government can just do what it wants? Yeah it looks right now it has pushed the other way a bit (of course unions in general can and have be pushed around as well). Overall though in the long term doctors have done quite well under the current system (not excusing the governments actions here) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdy Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 You cannot on salary - you are an employee not a business person if you are on salary. That and the loss of independence (employees are not supposed to push back against their employers, doctors have to push back at the government all the time) are two of the main reasons I don't like a general salary system. Salary is the only viable option for some specialists in some areas, though. I do agree that overall, it doesn't seem a good system for the majority of physicians. But, for some subspecialties, it'd be extremely difficult to bill enough in their field to make a decent living in some areas, but they may take a salary as guaranteed income so they can live in a region they prefer. At least that's my uneducated, outsider take on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 Salary is the only viable option for some specialists in some areas, though. I do agree that overall, it doesn't seem a good system for the majority of physicians. But, for some subspecialties, it'd be extremely difficult to bill enough in their field to make a decent living in some areas, but they may take a salary as guaranteed income so they can live in a region they prefer. At least that's my uneducated, outsider take on it. Sure! There are some that definitely are like that - although often you are effectively being paid a sort of bonus to do it. Some on salary do quite well as well (pathology comes to mind). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Hood Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 Here's a couple reasons that I see. First off, doctors don't really have a union to protect them. I've never heard of doctors being able to go on strike, and even if they did nobody would support them because to the general public a doctor is supposed to be absolutely selfless and do whatever they're told. Teachers and nurses do have unions that really drive the negotiations (although teachers here can't strike so maybe they have less power). Idk about cops. Raw numbers is another big reason. Provincial governments only publish gross billings or salaries for physicians, they don't publish net income after overhead. Most people see these numbers and don't realize that the doctor doesn't actually take it all home. Therefore it's easy for the government to say they're making too much money. Btw there are a couple threads on this issue already. Nurses in Quebec can't strike since 1999 by a special law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xkittens Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 Edit: Don't be so bitter about taxes. They paid for the schools you and most of your peers attended (unless you went to private school.) They pay for the police officers who are making sure we have a very good level of control over crime, if your house were on fire, those tax dollars would pay for the firefighters. Your garbage is picked up thanks to taxes, you have roads and sidewalks to bike/walk/drive/take a bus on due to tax dollars. The money that pays physicians and heavily subsidizes postsecondary education comes from tax dollars. The public purse does far more to improve your standard of living than detract from it. Oh you raging liberal, I think i like you too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdy Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 Oh you raging liberal, I think i like you too Not just liberal, I'm practically a raging socialist, hah. NDP member, going on three years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Not just liberal, I'm practically a raging socialist, hah. NDP member, going on three years. Not sure that's something I'd be proud to admit but whatever works for ya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdy Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Not sure that's something I'd be proud to admit but whatever works for ya Hah, I am proud of it and am somewhat used to getting a bit of ribbing for it. No biggie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xkittens Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Pick up a history text book and read about how well progressive socialism went for the USSR. As for the topic at hand, this witchhunt was inevitable. The government healthcare system is unsustainable, it was only a matter of time before politicians came out full swinging against the doctors in a desperate move to keep the system afloat, so they don't take the rap for sinking it. The healthcare system in Canada is a sacred cow. If it goes down while any politician is in office, that politician is automatically out of a job (people are too stupid to realize that correlation does not necessarily imply causation, and will vote them out). As a result, the whole country would be torn down before the healthcare system goes down. Excise your head from whichever orifice it happens to be stuck in and see how well Sweden, Norway and their fellow democratic socialist Nordic countries are doing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Second Daniel Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Excise your head from whichever orifice it happens to be stuck in and see how well Sweden, Norway and their fellow democratic socialist Nordic countries are doing That's because doctors in Nordic countries are paid 1/5th of what Canadian/US doctors make. They're not in it for the money, believe it or not, which is why these places have the best healthcare in the world and are among the happiest people in the world. When you don't have such a drastic drain on the system like you do here, then anything, and that includes healthcare, can flourish. A socialist model can only be successful if people are willing to sacrifice material wealth (and if there's enough rich people whose money you can take). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostintime Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 I have always viewed the OMA as pretty much a union - I would argue we have effectively one of the most powerful unions in Canada actually even if it isn't a legal one. Other unions cannot strike either (essential services) so that alone isn't enough to work with. The OMA negotiates for fee increases and rules of conduct..... Lol I don't find them powerful at all, their tactics and strategies and 1.5 million so far have done nothing to change the situation for Ontario doctors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xkittens Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 That's because doctors in Nordic countries are paid 1/5th of what Canadian/US doctors make. They're not in it for the money, believe it or not, which is why these places have the best healthcare in the world and are among the happiest people in the world. When you don't have such a drastic drain on the system like you do here, then anything, and that includes healthcare, can flourish. A socialist model can only be successful if people are willing to sacrifice material wealth (and if there's enough rich people whose money you can take). Sweden has a month long national holiday. Socialism can work even for those that accept that humans are selfish beings Not sure that's something I'd be proud to admit but whatever works for ya I'd be ashamed too if you were to say that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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