Doing a second residency: am I nuts?

[brooksbane]

..........

[rmorelan]

I would switch - I did switch when my old career drifted out of my main source of interest. You cannot spend your life bored out of your mind.

[Lactic Folly]

No more so than others who start medical school in their thirties and forties. Residency isn't a bad life - I'm in no particular hurry to finish. Life is unpredictable, so I'm less a fan of delayed fulfillment in this regard.

[nervousnellie]

Had a friend of the family whose child did IM, hated it and did a second residency in Derm. This person could not see themselves doing IM, and sucked it up. Also finished late and very happy.

[NLengr]

Repeating residency is gonna require some very good financial planning. If you do it make sure you've got the financial planning aspects figured out.

[rmorelan]

That one year I work between residencies would be able to clear my debt for the most part, if I live a frugal lifestyle.

 

Good suggestion though. It's very important that anyone contemplating extension of training can actually afford to do so.

 

If needed can you moonlight in the first speciality? I mean one huge advantage you would have is you would be a fully trained doctor.

[Mandibular]

buddy, do whatever makes you happy. Maybe once you hit the job market with your current specialty, you'll be able to appreciate your specialty more than you do now.

I'm curious to know what would your choice of second specialty be?

[ploughboy]

I have realized that I am not very thrilled about my job. I don't identify with it, and I cannot see myself doing it for long periods of time.

 

I am going to be an attending in a very short time frame. If afterwards I work for a year (if I can find work) I can apply for one of those bonded labor positions to get into a career I feel is rewarding, with the caveat that I work in a small community somewhere.

 

The thing is, I'm in my mid-thirties now. If I go this route - work a year, then go into another residency, then do the ubiquitous fellowship- I'm going to be older than forty before I actually start my career. Add five years to that before I have the freedom to settle down in a place of my choosing (which may very well be the community I work in during those years) and I'm basically pre-andropause before I start being a doctor with any personal autonomy.

 

I started medical school in my mid-twenties.

 

It'll have taken 21 years, from med school to being done, if I go this way. Six of those years would be a total complete waste of time.

 

This sounds like the most hairbrained scheme I could come up with. But the truth is I get no satisfaction from my work. None. I'm numb to it.

 

Would anyone here do it? Or am I just nuts, and should suck it up, work hard, fast and early, and retire soon after I start and go explore other non-medical things?

 

Hard to say without knowing more about your personal situation, what specialty you're coming from and going into etc and I know you're pretty cagey about posting that sort of information so I won't even ask...

 

What I do think, from having read your posts over the years*, is that you might have trouble being the "low man" on the totem pole again especially once you've passed your Royal College exams and have had the freedom of being a staff-man for a year or more. Maybe I'm reading you wrong, or your online persona is different than your real life one, but can you honestly picture yourself as a PGY-1 again, being supervised/pimped/given scut by somebody who -- if I do the math right -- wasn't even in med school when you were a PGY-1 in your first residency?

 

Is there any way to stretch your scope of practice toward something you're interested in *without* doing a full residency? Are you sure you're not just burned out from residency plus impending exams and job search?

 

pb

 

*and you're one of the few people whose posts I do always read, even if I don't always agree with them

[coastalslacker]

Dude, that sucks. If you're honestly thinking of going through residency again, I would take at least a year and build up some bank first. If it were me (and I didn't have a family), I'd probably also take some time travelling and enjoying life before getting caught up in the quagmire that is residency again. Some time away can bring useful perspective.

 

Would it be possible to work part-time at your speciality? Most specialists could still clear 100k per year, easily, working 2 days per week. That would give you a decent-living, and lots of time to enjoy other things you might like to do. Good luck.

[Jochi1543]

Re: being the person on the bottom of the totem pole, I've come across some docs who completed a specialty residency after working as GPs for a while, as well as some senior residents who who are currently going through the same thing. While you will still have to do a lot of the staff's work for them, same as other residents do (round, whatever), the consensus was that you are treated with a lot more respect and not assigned BS tasks. After all, you're an independent physician in your own right and they hold no power over you - you're in the program by choice and can leave at any time if it doesn't meet your expectations. I imagine age makes a difference, too.

[ploughboy]

Thanks for taking an interest in my posts pb. Even if you don't find me enlightening, you at least find me entertaining.

 

I said I read them. I didn't pass any judgement as to their educational or entertainment value.

 

 

@Jochi - I've run across my fair share of "re-trainees" too, and I agree with your comments. Thing is, pretty much all the ones I've worked with have been laid-back, type B, "ya, sure no problem" personalities. brooksbane doesn't come across that way, at least online, and that's what motivated my comment in the first place. But he's pretty much answered that.

[bloh]

My only apprehension in doing this is the financial one. In actuality, residency isn't so bad, as long as you're doing what you enjoy. I'd actually do this before become an attending because going back and doing the menial and annoying tasks that attending make others do will be hard to go back to.

[coastalslacker]

In actuality, residency isn't so bad, as long as you're doing what you enjoy..

 

Depends on your residency. I love my speciality, but am sick of being a resident in it because of the time committment.

[Satsuma]

 

The thing is, I'm in my mid-thirties now. If I go this route - work a year, then go into another residency, then do the ubiquitous fellowship- I'm going to be older than forty before I actually start my career. Add five years to that before I have the freedom to settle down in a place of my choosing (which may very well be the community I work in during those years) and I'm basically pre-andropause before I start being a doctor with any personal autonomy.

 

 

In case you hadn't realized, you already started your career!

 

And there is nothing wrong with changing paths. If you invested 100k in a company that was going under, would you keep investing in that company just because you already lost 100k to it, or would you find a new investment?

 

In terms of settling down in a place of your choosing, life isn't always predictable. Even if you pick a place, you may end up moving 5 -10 years down the road. So staying in a specialty just so you can settle down isn't a good idea. You could end up staying in a specialty you don't like and living somewhere you don't want to.

 

Just be sure you truly dislike your specialty and you aren't just burnt out. And as best you can, be sure the specialty you change into will fulfill what you are missing in your current specialty.

 

I went into medicine from a previous career. I had this idea that work shouldn't be work and a person should love what they do and it wouldn't feel like work. I've come to the conclusion that, work is work. I don't regret leaving my previous career. There were things I liked and disliked about it. I have found that in medicine there are things I like and dislike too, they are just different things. So, partly I feel like it was a lot of work for me to just end up doing another kind of work! lol

 

If you are truly unhappy and are fairly sure you'll be much happier in another specialty, then I wouldn't let age, or the perception that you haven't started your career stop you.

[AtomSmasher19]

I wouldn't do it.

 

A job is a job. You're supposed to hate doing it - that's why you get paid for it.

 

The problem with Western society is that our work becomes our life. We define ourselves by our work. We live to work, instead of work to live. And unfortunately, through a dissonance-like process, we come to derive our satisfaction from our job. This is a fallacy. We derive satisfaction doing things we WANT to do, instead of doing things we are FORCED to do then trick ourselves into thinking that we like doing.

 

There's no such thing as a free man who is working.

 

If you're in a high paid specialty, just work your ass off for 10 years, live frugally, amass a couple million, then quit for life. Would you rather spend 5 years being a ***** in residency, or would you rather spend those 5 years retired, doing whatever you want?

 

Alternatively you could just work like 1 day a week, making just enough to survive, if your specialty allows for that. There's people who work at McDonalds, hate their jobs, and are forced to work 7 days a week just to survive, so 1 day a week couldn't be that bad

 

Since you're apparently almost done your residency, maybe you're just stressed out because of the life changes.

 

Just give it a try for a year. If you hate it, just do a one day a week thing, or take it all at once and retire by age 45.

[bloh]

Working like a dog for 10-15 years doing nauseating **** that makes you hate your life, in your prime years, sounds like a great idea!!

[AtomSmasher19]

Working like a dog for 10-15 years doing nauseating **** that makes you hate your life, in your prime years, sounds like a great idea!!

 

You spoiled brat, try seeing how normal people live for a change. This is reality for 95% of people. But trust me, when you're getting paid $200K instead of $40K while you're doing it, life is a lot more bearable, that I know for sure.

[Real Beef]

Brooksbane: Sorry to hear about your dilemma. I have a few questions about how you got yourself into this situation.

 

- How did you prep/research the current specialty that you are currently in to not know what you were getting into?

- Is it a matter of changing personality during the 5-6 years that made a change?

- Did you enter the reseidency for certain reasons that in retrospect arent as important to you as you imagined? (i.e. prestige, money, hours, call).

 

I am not trying to be an arse, I am just curious as to how you realized this and how others can avoid going though the same thing.

 

Good luck with whatever decisions you make. Choose the path that makes you most happy ....

 

Beef

[apache]

there's a site, non-clinical jobs, how about an mba... and hopsital management... just throwing stuff out there, how bout a shorter us res if ur not tied to canada???

 

Hey bro.

 

I actually enjoy the act of working. Part time work won't really be enough to keep me busy; plus I'll still be in that field. The problem isn't so much that the work is hard, its just I have no interest in it now that I understand the crux of practice. Though I appreciate your suggestion, I'm trying not to go do any traveling or soul-searching until I am done for good, lest I become complacent - plus I'd be wasting more time. Not to mention "going back" would always be on my mind.

 

My other plan, should I ultimately think that spending my entire thirties doing two separate 5-year residencies is crazy, is to work like a dog for a few years, amass a good nest egg, pay off the debts, live frugally, and then retire super early (I'm talking 40-45), grab a one-way ticket to somewhere warm, and go paint pictures on a shoreline until I'm old and gray.

 

 

 

That's a good point, the one about being the low-man in another specialty taking guff from seniors who started medical school two years ago. I try not to take anything personally so I doubt it would be much of a detriment to my ability to complete another residency. There are some staff I know who are younger than me. It's cool. Plus, though I am generally as cynical and outspoken as this in real life, I have never had issues accepting pointless tasks because I merely delegate them off to the appropriately paid ancillary staff in a polite way. I am quite adept at scut deflection.

 

There is no way to stretch the practice enough into something interesting. If there is, I'd then be a trailblazer because certainly nobody I've heard of has done anything remotely like that.

 

The job search and exams are looming yes. It's troublesome, and the job search is likely contributing to a bit of my unease. Exams are just annoying, but not particularly stressful in the grand scheme of things.

 

Thanks for taking an interest in my posts pb. Even if you don't find me enlightening, you at least find me entertaining.

[apache]

dude, i make fun of you sometimes cause you exclusively talk about money and cares, lol... but **** ordinary people... if i was ordinerary the last 3 days sleep would be half a nite... i refuse to work over 45 hours a week or take less the 250 k... 40 k is one way ticket to kissing my ass

 

You spoiled brat, try seeing how normal people live for a change. This is reality for 95% of people. But trust me, when you're getting paid $200K instead of $40K while you're doing it, life is a lot more bearable, that I know for sure.

[apache]

i like 2 specialties, the rest are ****ing jobs, and one is a strain and makes me an *******... the rest, meh, 90 hours a week for 300 k when i can make that working 90 hours in er and have fun, yeah, defintely gonna line uor mental breakdown... the lines right outside the trauma surg entrance... and there are no clocks, cause well... work finnishes when it finnishes, unlike shift work... which finnishes at most an hour and a half after its supposed to be finnished, on a ****ing peace of paper

 

I wouldn't do it.

 

A job is a job. You're supposed to hate doing it - that's why you get paid for it.

 

The problem with Western society is that our work becomes our life. We define ourselves by our work. We live to work, instead of work to live. And unfortunately, through a dissonance-like process, we come to derive our satisfaction from our job. This is a fallacy. We derive satisfaction doing things we WANT to do, instead of doing things we are FORCED to do then trick ourselves into thinking that we like doing.

 

There's no such thing as a free man who is working.

 

If you're in a high paid specialty, just work your ass off for 10 years, live frugally, amass a couple million, then quit for life. Would you rather spend 5 years being a ***** in residency, or would you rather spend those 5 years retired, doing whatever you want?

 

Alternatively you could just work like 1 day a week, making just enough to survive, if your specialty allows for that. There's people who work at McDonalds, hate their jobs, and are forced to work 7 days a week just to survive, so 1 day a week couldn't be that bad

 

Since you're apparently almost done your residency, maybe you're just stressed out because of the life changes.

 

Just give it a try for a year. If you hate it, just do a one day a week thing, or take it all at once and retire by age 45.

[rmorelan]

i like 2 specialties, the rest are ****ing jobs, and one is a strain and makes me an *******... the rest, meh, 90 hours a week for 300 k when i can make that working 90 hours in er and have fun, yeah, defintely gonna line uor mental breakdown... the lines right outside the trauma surg entrance... and there are no clocks, cause well... work finnishes when it finnishes, unlike shift work... which finnishes at most an hour and a half after its supposed to be finnished, on a ****ing peace of paper

 

You are unusually bitter this morning

 

Although you do point out the difference between doing something you enjoy or not makes a huge difference.

[apache]

i'm mad, beyond belief, because you know what... i was the only person who gave a real **** about the most desperate ppl u can treat, that was my thing, every preceptor loved me, i was offered research positions, the cma pres thinks me and a friend are one of the only unentitled people in my class, u know, harm reduction, im sorry, 2nd place... my advisor and head of a department here told me to sue the school and ive had foip out for a while, one person was on a one man with hunt... i was lied to sttraight up, one day to the next by the provincial registrar, just like our last two liberal leaders... and **** that, at a point someone just realized when i want something it's mine, you don't touch it, why, 1000 pages of harvard disability law, the charter, the accreditation violations regarding the learning environment, bi weekly for 5 months someone looked for a way to get me out, i was refused my mmpi. and mr jesus refused to listen to why i was so passionate, and why psychs freaked me out, then after the reg agency sais im normal, of course im told cant get in contact... sorry, lie... be more scrupulous with notes... then after someone asks reg agency its now required, but guy trying to screw is paying... hmmm and reading an mmpi cold and going to hiar... helping individuals at risk, first, illegal, second, completely ignoring a severe event, cause ive seen stuff like this more than once... forget the 15-20 precedents i have... like, this is so agregious i have panic attacks if go through that hall, and i know docs whove been through similar, but u know, i only a mentioned atenth of it, basically, im just tired, but i dont want to go back to the same school, cause if i do, ill snap, and honestly, i actually dont like like, i have 6000 pages god... if i snap someones fired, ill take their life savings, house, cause two of my relatives got depressed after this, one died, others cachexic and half dead, i've already gotten apologies, but that's not enough to me anymore... i feel ashamed of attending an institution of someone so malignant, yet ignorant as a stern hand for the lord i suppose... and yeah, i'm sorry, it's the whole ptsd, power of autorney, ect... ummm, lets say if my livelihood is threatened uve got a couple chances than anxiogenic mode... and im that rare aggressive subtype... yeah, iuno... my criticisms are never about intellect, it's the laissez faire attitude people will adopt, if only to match to some specialty... so in the end, sorry, i can go on a far worse offensive, since medicine is a job to help people, not a self serving cult trade unions that has the sole purpose of improving the professions leverage over society... anyways, im lucky, i can get away with caring, but i dont like being a ****, but honestly, try and leave me licenseless when i was clearly a top pic, no clinical anything less than a 4... sorry it's time to pay me back, there's lots of ways, but a civil suit, hire 5 lawyers, believe me, i don't lose, if you owe me, your done when i get my life back... and well, right now, i can't even be in the same space....

 

You are unusually bitter this morning

 

Although you do point out the difference between doing something you enjoy or not makes a huge difference.

[igeorgex]

I really have to wonder if muse is having a manic bipolar episode right now. should last 7-10 days right? if these long bumbling posts stop in a little while, I guess we'll have our answer

 

ETA: these posts started becoming incoherent on Jan 10th, so let's see what happens around Jan 20th.

[rmorelan]

i'm mad, beyond belief, because you know what... i was the only person who gave a real **** about the most desperate ppl u can treat, that was my thing, every preceptor loved me, i was offered research positions, the cma pres thinks me and a friend are one of the only unentitled people in my class, u know, harm reduction, im sorry, 2nd place... my advisor and head of a department here told me to sue the school and ive had foip out for a while, one person was on a one man with hunt... i was lied to sttraight up, one day to the next by the provincial registrar, just like our last two liberal leaders... and **** that, at a point someone just realized when i want something it's mine, you don't touch it, why, 1000 pages of harvard disability law, the charter, the accreditation violations regarding the learning environment, bi weekly for 5 months someone looked for a way to get me out, i was refused my mmpi. and mr jesus refused to listen to why i was so passionate, and why psychs freaked me out, then after the reg agency sais im normal, of course im told cant get in contact... sorry, lie... be more scrupulous with notes... then after someone asks reg agency its now required, but guy trying to screw is paying... hmmm and reading an mmpi cold and going to hiar... helping individuals at risk, first, illegal, second, completely ignoring a severe event, cause ive seen stuff like this more than once... forget the 15-20 precedents i have... like, this is so agregious i have panic attacks if go through that hall, and i know docs whove been through similar, but u know, i only a mentioned atenth of it, basically, im just tired, but i dont want to go back to the same school, cause if i do, ill snap, and honestly, i actually dont like like, i have 6000 pages god... if i snap someones fired, ill take their life savings, house, cause two of my relatives got depressed after this, one died, others cachexic and half dead, i've already gotten apologies, but that's not enough to me anymore... i feel ashamed of attending an institution of someone so malignant, yet ignorant as a stern hand for the lord i suppose... and yeah, i'm sorry, it's the whole ptsd, power of autorney, ect... ummm, lets say if my livelihood is threatened uve got a couple chances than anxiogenic mode... and im that rare aggressive subtype... yeah, iuno... my criticisms are never about intellect, it's the laissez faire attitude people will adopt, if only to match to some specialty... so in the end, sorry, i can go on a far worse offensive, since medicine is a job to help people, not a self serving cult trade unions that has the sole purpose of improving the professions leverage over society... anyways, im lucky, i can get away with caring, but i dont like being a ****, but honestly, try and leave me licenseless when i was clearly a top pic, no clinical anything less than a 4... sorry it's time to pay me back, there's lots of ways, but a civil suit, hire 5 lawyers, believe me, i don't lose, if you owe me, your done when i get my life back... and well, right now, i can't even be in the same space....

 

honestly are you actually ok right now? This stream of consciousness text is hard to follow.