cleanup Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Here's another problem I have with the class size increase. It is going to be negatively affecting the clinical experience. Example: root canal procedures have always been difficult to get enough of. In my year we had to do 5 root canals including 1 molar. From what I've heard talking to students the requirement is now 4, and some students will never do a molar root canal before graduating (except on extracted teeth). When the class size increases, will that number go down to 3 root canals? I can say as a UofT grad that endodontics is by far my weakest skill set, and newer grads will be even worse off. Also, UofT is removing it's undergrad clinical orthodontics program. I got to treat an ortho patient from start to finish, whereas new students will only learn theory. Many GP dentists will want to incorporate some ortho into their practices (I have) and hands on experience in dental school is priceless. Our class is the last to do undergrad ortho. Also, we have to share patients (two students to a patient). It's still fine, but overall a dumbed-down experience. Also the grad ortho residents just spend their time during screenings trying to make us feel bad about being mere DDS students and encouraging us to refer to them at all times, not only so their 2-year waitlist can get longer, but also so when we graduate we don't touch ortho if we go GP. Reeks of paranoia and a sense of elitism. It's too bad because I really like ortho. And as for the lack of clinical experience, I know our class is already feeling the squeeze with people lacking things, sitting around a lot during clinic, not having patients, etc. In addition, the huge influx of first years means on their assisting days we have first years assisting third years with no patients, and it just turns into us showing them how to drill on mannequins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerpenguin Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 UT being pretty irresponsible with their class sizes, especially with the oversaturation. On the other hand, it's been said that UWO is decreasing class sizes next year in order to improve patient portfolio and coverage for each student. I would very highly recommend people look into attending UWO over UT when/if these class size changes are confirmed officially. A class size of 120 is nuts especially with the smaller patient pool for dental students within Canada. Works great in the US, not so much here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrewmrew Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 UT being pretty irresponsible with their class sizes, especially with the oversaturation. On the other hand, it's been said that UWO is decreasing class sizes next year in order to improve patient portfolio and coverage for each student. I would very highly recommend people look into attending UWO over UT when/if these class size changes are confirmed officially. A class size of 120 is nuts especially with the smaller patient pool for dental students within Canada. Works great in the US, not so much here. Wondering where you heard/found out about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 From what I can gather, it seems like the majority of dental students from other Canadian schools are pretty happy with the amount of clinical exposure they got while the same cannot be said for UofT grads? Also, the constant mention of the faculty and staff being utterly disorganized when it comes to student education and admissions worries me. If it's really that bad isn't there a way for the CDA or some higher up organization to look into these issues? There's something seriously wrong when it gets to the point where students are advised to attend UWO over Toronto bc of a lack of decent clinical time, support/direction from the school, asking students to pay for the school's worn out tools, etc. It's embarrassing for an institution that's regarded with such high calibre to have their students and grads recall their experiences in such a negative way. Wtf is going on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookiemonster99 Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 From what I can gather, it seems like the majority of dental students from other Canadian schools are pretty happy with the amount of clinical exposure they got while the same cannot be said for UofT grads? Also, the constant mention of the faculty and staff being utterly disorganized when it comes to student education and admissions worries me. If it's really that bad isn't there a way for the CDA or some higher up organization to look into these issues? There's something seriously wrong when it gets to the point where students are advised to attend UWO over Toronto bc of a lack of decent clinical time, support/direction from the school, asking students to pay for the school's worn out tools, etc. It's embarrassing for an institution that's regarded with such high calibre to have their students and grads recall their experiences in such a negative way. Wtf is going on? everything comes down to $$$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerpenguin Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 Wondering where you heard/found out about this? Faculty. We'll see if it goes through or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ostracized Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 From what I can gather, it seems like the majority of dental students from other Canadian schools are pretty happy with the amount of clinical exposure they got while the same cannot be said for UofT grads? Also, the constant mention of the faculty and staff being utterly disorganized when it comes to student education and admissions worries me. If it's really that bad isn't there a way for the CDA or some higher up organization to look into these issues? There's something seriously wrong when it gets to the point where students are advised to attend UWO over Toronto bc of a lack of decent clinical time, support/direction from the school, asking students to pay for the school's worn out tools, etc. It's embarrassing for an institution that's regarded with such high calibre to have their students and grads recall their experiences in such a negative way. Wtf is going on? It has a lot to do with the highly academic/research-focused nature of UofT dentistry. The profs are mostly researchers first, teachers seconds. I can't speak for other Canadian schools but in the US many of the schools are not very research oriented so the profs are fully dedicated to teaching. At UofT the clinical teaching is primarily done by part-time instructor dentists. I had it explained to me by the former clinic head that because these people are all part time, and because they all have different skill levels and knowledge bases, the clinical curriculum has to be rather dumbed-down to allow all the instructors to be able to follow along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 It has a lot to do with the highly academic/research-focused nature of UofT dentistry. The profs are mostly researchers first, teachers seconds. I can't speak for other Canadian schools but in the US many of the schools are not very research oriented so the profs are fully dedicated to teaching. At UofT the clinical teaching is primarily done by part-time instructor dentists. I had it explained to me by the former clinic head that because these people are all part time, and because they all have different skill levels and knowledge bases, the clinical curriculum has to be rather dumbed-down to allow all the instructors to be able to follow along. That is so fucking shitty (from a student's perspective). I'm curious, would you say your education at UofT negatively impacted your chances at landing a good job or opening up your own successful practice in comparison to grads from other schools? Obviously this will vary from person to person and the job market is high in competition but it's still their duty to ensure they graduate competent dentists who are comfortable and confident in their skills and able to practise independently. Right? With that said, do you regret going to UofT dentistry? Just looking for a little perspective since I previously pegged Toronto dent as a great (and top) choice with top-notch education :S (since they brand themselves as the leading dental faculty in Canada, lol) (Looking for insight from other UT grads as well!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ostracized Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 That is so fucking shitty (from a student's perspective). I'm curious, would you say your education at UofT negatively impacted your chances at landing a good job or opening up your own successful practice in comparison to grads from other schools? Obviously this will vary from person to person and the job market is high in competition but it's still their duty to ensure they graduate competent dentists who are comfortable and confident in their skills and able to practise independently. Right? With that said, do you regret going to UofT dentistry? Just looking for a little perspective since I previously pegged Toronto dent as a great (and top) choice with top-notch education :S (since they brand themselves as the leading dental faculty in Canada, lol) (Looking for insight from other UT grads as well!) For landing an associateship I don't think UofT is bad. For starting a practice right away it definitely is. I know some US grads that started/bought their own practice immediately after graduation. I definitely wasn't ready to do that after my graduation. But some schools will have students do five times the number of crowns, root canals, dentures, etc compared to UofT. I don't regret going there because I was from Toronto, and because it was relatively cheap. I also got into Case Western which has a great clinical experience but is around twice the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sktoddl Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 For landing an associateship I don't think UofT is bad. For starting a practice right away it definitely is. I know some US grads that started/bought their own practice immediately after graduation. I definitely wasn't ready to do that after my graduation. But some schools will have students do five times the number of crowns, root canals, dentures, etc compared to UofT. I don't regret going there because I was from Toronto, and because it was relatively cheap. I also got into Case Western which has a great clinical experience but is around twice the price. Thank you for your feedback. Do you remember your class size by any chance? Given that you graduated in 2012, I wonder how much the clinical experience of UT changed since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
武田信玄 Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 Typical UofT. Just check out their med school class size. 258?! That's not a school. That's a factory. But funny because ppl still defend this on the UofT sub-forum? (How can you defend a 258 class size???) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ostracized Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 Thank you for your feedback. Do you remember your class size by any chance? Given that you graduated in 2012, I wonder how much the clinical experience of UT changed since then. My class was 96 people (~67 4-year and ~29 IDAPP). I spoke with the head of the 4th year comprehensive care program yesterday, and he said they are shifting away from a credit-based system for procedures to a competency-based system. So, when I was there you needed 5 endos, 8 crowns, 2 RPDs, etc. in order to graduate. Now they are planning on dropping those requirements and just focusing on competency. Although the credit system was terribly stressful, I am not convinced that you can guarantee competency if students aren't even meeting the (minimal) previous requirements. Will it now be possible to squeak through the program without ever doing certain procedures on live humans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrewmrew Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 I thought the class size increase last year for the 4 year program was coupled with a decrease in the same amount of spots in the IDAPP program. Wouldn't the total amount of grads per year still remain the same then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bicuspid Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 I thought the class size increase last year for the 4 year program was coupled with a decrease in the same amount of spots in the IDAPP program. Wouldn't the total amount of grads per year still remain the same then? There is a rumor that they are going to decrease the number of IDAPP spots- by how many, I have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottawaliquid Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 Typical UofT. Just check out their med school class size. 258?! That's not a school. That's a factory. But funny because ppl still defend this on the UofT sub-forum? (How can you defend a 258 class size???) I think there are a lot of other schools in Canada that have classes sizes that size or even larger. I'm pretty sure that UBC and UdM and Laval have similar size medical classes. Also think of the sizes and numbers of teaching hospitals in Toronto, Van, MTL etc. Dentistry.. a completely different story though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tksm8727 Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 For landing an associateship I don't think UofT is bad. For starting a practice right away it definitely is. I know some US grads that started/bought their own practice immediately after graduation. I definitely wasn't ready to do that after my graduation. But some schools will have students do five times the number of crowns, root canals, dentures, etc compared to UofT. I don't regret going there because I was from Toronto, and because it was relatively cheap. I also got into Case Western which has a great clinical experience but is around twice the price. I have a different take on this. I think all accredited programs are fine because they all teach you what you need to get going with your career. The amount of clinical work is minimal when you compare it to the amount of work you will do in private practice. Let's say your school has you do 15 canals for endo and another school has you do 10. When you are in private practice, you will probably do 10 times this amount in your first year or so. After a year of practice, if you went to school A, you'll have done 115 canals. If you went to school B, you'll have done 110....and so on. After a couple of years, the amount of clinical work you did in dental school will be irrelevant. Also, if there is a discipline that you are not comfortable with, there are thousands of continuing education courses available after graduation that you could take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bicuspid Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 I have a different take on this. I think all accredited programs are fine because they all teach you what you need to get going with your career. The amount of clinical work is minimal when you compare it to the amount of work you will do in private practice. Let's say your school has you do 15 canals for endo and another school has you do 10. When you are in private practice, you will probably do 10 times this amount in your first year or so. After a year of practice, if you went to school A, you'll have done 115 canals. If you went to school B, you'll have done 110....and so on. After a couple of years, the amount of clinical work you did in dental school will be irrelevant. Also, if there is a discipline that you are not comfortable with, there are thousands of continuing education courses available after graduation that you could take. I agree. I have spoken to many dentists and they have all said that your greatest learning curve is after you graduate. It is not uncommon for individuals to do a general residency afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleanup Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 I have a different take on this. I think all accredited programs are fine because they all teach you what you need to get going with your career. The amount of clinical work is minimal when you compare it to the amount of work you will do in private practice. Let's say your school has you do 15 canals for endo and another school has you do 10. When you are in private practice, you will probably do 10 times this amount in your first year or so. After a year of practice, if you went to school A, you'll have done 115 canals. If you went to school B, you'll have done 110....and so on. After a couple of years, the amount of clinical work you did in dental school will be irrelevant. Also, if there is a discipline that you are not comfortable with, there are thousands of continuing education courses available after graduation that you could take. Find me an associateship where I can do 100 endos in my first year. Please. Everyone needs to manage their expectations. Like Ostracized said, hope for the best, plan for the worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookiemonster99 Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 Find me an associateship where I can do 100 endos in my first year. Please. Everyone needs to manage their expectations. Like Ostracized said, hope for the best, plan for the worst. I wish i can do 100 endo cases in my first year out lol.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tksm8727 Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 Find me an associateship where I can do 100 endos in my first year. Please. Everyone needs to manage their expectations. Like Ostracized said, hope for the best, plan for the worst. The numbers are not meant to be taken literally. Unfortunately, you completely missed my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ostracized Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 My opinion as someone who's been working for a few years now is that, if you leave school not being comfortable doing something, it is really difficult to get comfortable with it once you are on your own. If you're really lucky you'll associate with a great mentor who doesn't mind holding your hand through procedures. Yes, you can take CE, but there is very little CE available that really gives you necessary hands-on experience - and you'll pay dearly for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrewmrew Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 Are Ontario dental school grads already having a hard time finding full time work as associates nowadays? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleanup Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 The numbers are not meant to be taken literally. Unfortunately, you completely missed my point. You're mistaken. I wasn't attempting to be incendiary, nor did I miss your point. I was highlighting the importance of not exaggerating, even if only for the purpose of illustrating a point. There's a lot of misinformation on these boards and seeing the world through rose-coloured glasses is not the best way of dealing with such misinformation. Wait until you enter clinic and you'll feel the squeeze, and believe it or not, a handful, even a couple of procedures can greatly increase your personal comfort level, if not clinical knowledge. At the very least, you will feel more confident in yourself, and that alone is often half the game. If you wanted to extend your analogy, you could argue that the 6 endos we're required to do is "nothing" in the grand scheme of things, and given enough time, we should be just as competent if we had done zero endos because in private practice we will eventually have done "hundreds." It doesn't really work like that. Experience has diminishing returns. The first few you do are going to increase your level of expertise far, far more than the 50th, 100th or 2000th procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sciappmed Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 I threw out a dull 7901 bur in ortho and they withheld my tags for doing that. They wanted $300 to replace it. I went through my sharps container to retrieve it for them - they said it was unacceptable. I went through other sharps containers and gathered 5 other 7901 burs and shoved them to the dispensary. I got my tags back. Good times. LOLLLLLLLLLL omg HAHAHAHAHA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimchiman103 Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 does anyone know what the class size will be for the upcoming cycle? Will there be an increase? Will it be kept the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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