anp89 Posted December 16, 2013 Report Share Posted December 16, 2013 Hi everyone, I am an IMG (but a Canadian citizen) and I wrote my EE in November. Got the results this month and unfortunately didn't pass. I had a question/ wanted some advice from everyone on here ... 1) If I were to re-write my exam and pass in January, what are my chances for the 2nd iteration? 2) I've heard that in the 2nd iteration, the CMGs and IMGs are in the same stream. If that's true, would this help my chances of matching? 3) Do you think its even worth spending the money to re-write the exam and then re-apply for CaRMS for 2nd iteration? (I'm all for it if I have a chance) Thanks everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wacky Posted December 16, 2013 Report Share Posted December 16, 2013 Def. rewrite the exam, but from my understanding, the best way to counter the fail attempt is two fold. Step 1: Kill your EE the second time. Step2: Take the QE1 and try to score well on that as well. My friend took EE and barely passed and he was told to take QE1 as way to counter the low EE score. Remember, you never know what can happen in 2nd round. Look at residencies such as Path or medical genetics since they are non competitive and Canadian citizen IMG's are typically preferred over other IMG's. Also try to do an observership in those programs and show you are a strong worker and I think you should have decent shot. good luck my friend, and just work hard man. Don't let this fail stop you! Hi everyone, I am an IMG (but a Canadian citizen) and I wrote my EE in November. Got the results this month and unfortunately didn't pass. I had a question/ wanted some advice from everyone on here ... 1) If I were to re-write my exam and pass in January, what are my chances for the 2nd iteration? 2) I've heard that in the 2nd iteration, the CMGs and IMGs are in the same stream. If that's true, would this help my chances of matching? 3) Do you think its even worth spending the money to re-write the exam and then re-apply for CaRMS for 2nd iteration? (I'm all for it if I have a chance) Thanks everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dokrbb Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 Hi everyone, I am an IMG (but a Canadian citizen) and I wrote my EE in November. Got the results this month and unfortunately didn't pass. I had a question/ wanted some advice from everyone on here ... 1) If I were to re-write my exam and pass in January, what are my chances for the 2nd iteration? 2) I've heard that in the 2nd iteration, the CMGs and IMGs are in the same stream. If that's true, would this help my chances of matching? 3) Do you think its even worth spending the money to re-write the exam and then re-apply for CaRMS for 2nd iteration? (I'm all for it if I have a chance) Thanks everyone. It's been long time since my last post but my interest was really attracted by this dellusional ideas (and waky's reply) so I would just add my 2 cents as food for thought; - if you re-write your EE in January, considering that the CaRMS MCC result milestone is on February 12, are you sure you would have your results available by that date? And one question that should trouble you more than the milestone - if you didn't pass EE in November what makes you think that you would sure pass it in January, and with a good score; apparently you have some gaps in the areas tested on EE that sure would need more work than just a few weeks - we are nearly in January now... - your second question is logically incoherent: why an IMG with a filed EE would have more chances when being in the same stream with the CMGs? it seems for me that you are trying to convince yourself of something that even you don't really believe, am I right? - worth it or not, it's up to you to answer to this: it's the score that matters, not the compulsive idea to re-write it as quickly as possible... and I would ask you back something about this "I am an IMG (but a Canadian citizen)" ; why would that be an advantage over those who are not yet Can citizens; does that prove your intellectual superiority somehow? anyways, for all another IMGs the citizenship is just a matter of time, no? I don't see the logic here... sorry for upsetting you with my reply but really, I don't want you to spend another 1500$ and the whole holiday period stressing for the exam, and becoming depressed later, in March... if I were you I would postpone my exam for a later session next year and do some observerships (if you have this luxury to spend time just doing nothing) or look for a job somehow connected to the medical environment... that's the best advice I can give you... good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonto Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 Yea no offense bro, but Canadian physicians are already extremely xenophobic of IMG's even with a passed or good score on EE, let alone a fail. You essentially have little - 0 chance of matching in Canada. period. with a failed EE. You also have to look at why you failed - 4 years of proper medical education, you should not be failing board exams. You're best bet is to look at residency in the USA. Although tbh the USMLE step exams are often considered more difficult then the canadian boards. At least the step 1, its very challenging. Good Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 Nobody can tell you that you won't match, but your chances are definitely very low. Are you applying to the US? I would rewrite the MCCEE only if you think there's a chance you will be applying in the 2nd round (meaning you dont find a residency in the US either). If you have low scores in general (on USMLE or otherwise) that is probably a good possibility that you will be scrambling for a spot in the 2nd round of both the US/Canadian systems. For that reason you might want to try and rewrite the EE with the goal of passing and even better getting a high score. You might also want to write the QE1 to help your case, time permitting. That might be your only shot of finding something in the 2nd round, assuming you don't match in the US. To the other poster, being a Canadian-born IMG does give advantages for many different reasons, so that is important to the context here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dokrbb Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 Nobody can tell you that you won't match, but your chances are definitely very low. Are you applying to the US? I would rewrite the MCCEE only if you think there's a chance you will be applying in the 2nd round (meaning you dont find a residency in the US either). If you have low scores in general (on USMLE or otherwise) that is probably a good possibility that you will be scrambling for a spot in the 2nd round of both the US/Canadian systems. For that reason you might want to try and rewrite the EE with the goal of passing and even better getting a high score. You might also want to write the QE1 to help your case, time permitting. That might be your only shot of finding something in the 2nd round, assuming you don't match in the US. To the other poster, being a Canadian-born IMG does give advantages for many different reasons, so that is important to the context here. such as... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 The most important thing is that they're a fresh graduate who hasn't forgotten 90% of what they learned in medical school, and that what they do know is current and the most evidence based. In addition, having an understanding of the Canadian health care system and Canadian culture is important. Also, they usually have electives in Canada. They are usually more fluent in English as well. The list goes on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anp89 Posted December 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 Disclaimer: This is going to be a long post lol Def. rewrite the exam, but from my understanding, the best way to counter the fail attempt is two fold. Step 1: Kill your EE the second time. Step2: Take the QE1 and try to score well on that as well. My friend took EE and barely passed and he was told to take QE1 as way to counter the low EE score. Remember, you never know what can happen in 2nd round. Look at residencies such as Path or medical genetics since they are non competitive and Canadian citizen IMG's are typically preferred over other IMG's. Also try to do an observership in those programs and show you are a strong worker and I think you should have decent shot. good luck my friend, and just work hard man. Don't let this fail stop you! Thanks for your encouraging post. This is something I like to/wanted to hear but I am not sure if its blind faith or wishful thinking as I gotta be realistic too. I agree with your points though. Did your friend ever ended up matching? Thanks for the motivation! It's been long time since my last post but my interest was really attracted by this dellusional ideas (and waky's reply) so I would just add my 2 cents as food for thought; - if you re-write your EE in January, considering that the CaRMS MCC result milestone is on February 12, are you sure you would have your results available by that date? And one question that should trouble you more than the milestone - if you didn't pass EE in November what makes you think that you would sure pass it in January, and with a good score; apparently you have some gaps in the areas tested on EE that sure would need more work than just a few weeks - we are nearly in January now... - your second question is logically incoherent: why an IMG with a filed EE would have more chances when being in the same stream with the CMGs? it seems for me that you are trying to convince yourself of something that even you don't really believe, am I right? - worth it or not, it's up to you to answer to this: it's the score that matters, not the compulsive idea to re-write it as quickly as possible... and I would ask you back something about this "I am an IMG (but a Canadian citizen)" ; why would that be an advantage over those who are not yet Can citizens; does that prove your intellectual superiority somehow? anyways, for all another IMGs the citizenship is just a matter of time, no? I don't see the logic here... sorry for upsetting you with my reply but really, I don't want you to spend another 1500$ and the whole holiday period stressing for the exam, and becoming depressed later, in March... if I were you I would postpone my exam for a later session next year and do some observerships (if you have this luxury to spend time just doing nothing) or look for a job somehow connected to the medical environment... that's the best advice I can give you... good luck Thanks for your detailed response. I'll address each of your points as I see it - 1) "The CaRMS MCC result milestone is on February 12, are you sure you would have your results available by that date?" The CaRMS milestone for MCCEE is just a suggested date for the results to be in by then. Same thing for the first iteration but they didn't send out the interviews till after the results are in. I am guessing its the same thing for 2nd iteration. Also, CaRMS confirmed in an email that if I re-take the exam in January, I will have my results in time for 2nd iteration match. 2) "If you didn't pass EE in November what makes you think that you would sure pass it in January, and with a good score" - That's something I've considered over and over and I honestly don't have any answer for it. It's a good point you bring up and I will have to decide on my retake based on this. 3) "Your second question is logically incoherent: why an IMG with a filed EE would have more chances when being in the same stream with the CMGs?" I think you misinterpreted my question. It's logically coherent. I am asking this because firstly, I'm not sure if IMG's and CMG's are in the same stream in the 2nd iteration and if they are, then how would that affect the IMG's. It's a question, I'm not trying to "convince" myself of anything. 4) "I would ask you back something about this "I am an IMG (but a Canadian citizen)" ; why would that be an advantage over those who are not yet Can citizens" Being a Canadian citizen does put you at an advantage because the Residency programs don't have to worry about your visa status or English proficiency etc etc. I would like to thank you for your post and for opening my eyes to a few key points such as scoring high on MCCEE second time around and to not rush it. At this point, its not a matter of money for me, so if I spend another $1500 and am able to get through it, then I'm all for it! Yea no offense bro, but Canadian physicians are already extremely xenophobic of IMG's even with a passed or good score on EE, let alone a fail. You essentially have little - 0 chance of matching in Canada. period. with a failed EE. You also have to look at why you failed - 4 years of proper medical education, you should not be failing board exams. You're best bet is to look at residency in the USA. Although tbh the USMLE step exams are often considered more difficult then the canadian boards. At least the step 1, its very challenging. Good Luck. No offense taken. I posted here to get suggestions and advice. I agree that my chances are limited now but I don't believe that I have a "0 chance of matching in Canada". I have a strong application with a lot of electives and clinical experience in Canada (not observerships). I agree that failing a board exam is big red flag on my application but it's a test and hopefully it can be overlooked if I do well on it the second time around. As for USMLE Step 1, it was a harder exam by far and I was able to pass that so I am not sure where I got stuck in MCCEE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dokrbb Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 The most important thing is that they're a fresh graduate who hasn't forgotten 90% of what they learned in medical school, and that what they do know is current and the most evidence based. In addition, having an understanding of the Canadian health care system and Canadian culture is important. Also, they usually have electives in Canada. They are usually more fluent in English as well. The list goes on... ok, CSAs rule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anp89 Posted December 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 Nobody can tell you that you won't match, but your chances are definitely very low. Are you applying to the US? I would rewrite the MCCEE only if you think there's a chance you will be applying in the 2nd round (meaning you dont find a residency in the US either). If you have low scores in general (on USMLE or otherwise) that is probably a good possibility that you will be scrambling for a spot in the 2nd round of both the US/Canadian systems. For that reason you might want to try and rewrite the EE with the goal of passing and even better getting a high score. You might also want to write the QE1 to help your case, time permitting. That might be your only shot of finding something in the 2nd round, assuming you don't match in the US. To the other poster, being a Canadian-born IMG does give advantages for many different reasons, so that is important to the context here. Thank you for the encouraging response. I am not applying to the US although I have finished my Step 1 and CS. I am not sure if I'll have time to write the QE1 but I will look into it. I am still deciding whether or not I should re-write my exam in January. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbarry Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 I would like to thank you for your post and for opening my eyes to a few key points such as scoring high on MCCEE second time around and to not rush it. At this point, its not a matter of money for me, so if I spend another $1500 and am able to get through it, then I'm all for it! No offense taken. I posted here to get suggestions and advice. I agree that my chances are limited now but I don't believe that I have a "0 chance of matching in Canada". I have a strong application with a lot of electives and clinical experience in Canada (not observerships). Hey, sorry to hear about your troubles. I just wanted to chime in on the two sentences I bolded from your post 1. Doing the MCCEE again and passing it (aka getting through it), is UNFORTUNATELY not enough. This year to get an interview from ONT FM you needed a 390 minimum. That is a crazy score, considering avg score is 270ish. We're talking 99%ile. This is not an exaggeration. I personally know 3-4 people with scores in the 380s that were rejected. There are also a bunch of ppl on the rxpg forum with scores in the 380s that were rejected. One exception is if you get a very high score on the NAC OCSE. A score of 80+, even with a mediocre EE score will give you a shot at an interview The bottom line is, if you want to get an interview, you need an amazing score, not just passing or getting by. Taking the test so quickly probably won't get you that grade 2. Canadian electives/experience is fantastic. However, for Ontario FM, it won't get you in the door. You need the marks on EE and NAC. Once you get an IV based on exam marks, then your electives will help you a lot. Again, i know persons that have >12wks of electives but since their EE scores were not stellar, they were filtered out by the Ont FM algorithm These 2 points are mainly for Ontario FM. For Sask, and Manitoba, I have heard of people with mid 300 EE scores getting IVs. I don't know much about the scores needed for BC, AB , QC, or maritimes, so I won't comment on them. Essentially I would shoot for 400 on the EE, and even if you fall short at 350-360, that should give you a fair shake at MB and SK, but you won't get ONT FM w.out 400. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 ok, CSAs rule Nobody is knocking foreigners here, but the statistics speak for themselves that CSAs have a much better match rate. If he was a foreign IMG who finished medical school 20 years ago, hadn't stepped foot in a hospital since then, and now failed the MCCEE, his situation would be much different than what it is now. Edit: I see you're a foreign IMG, now I understand why you sounded so offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 Thank you for the encouraging response. I am not applying to the US although I have finished my Step 1 and CS. I am not sure if I'll have time to write the QE1 but I will look into it. I am still deciding whether or not I should re-write my exam in January. If Canada is your only shot at residency, what other choice do you have? Or are you applying in other countries as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Cloak Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 and I would ask you back something about this "I am an IMG (but a Canadian citizen)" ; why would that be an advantage over those who are not yet Can citizens; does that prove your intellectual superiority somehow? It's an advantage because you can't apply unless you're a citizen (or PR). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anp89 Posted December 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 Hey, sorry to hear about your troubles. I just wanted to chime in on the two sentences I bolded from your post 1. Doing the MCCEE again and passing it (aka getting through it), is UNFORTUNATELY not enough. This year to get an interview from ONT FM you needed a 390 minimum. That is a crazy score, considering avg score is 270ish. We're talking 99%ile. This is not an exaggeration. I personally know 3-4 people with scores in the 380s that were rejected. There are also a bunch of ppl on the rxpg forum with scores in the 380s that were rejected. One exception is if you get a very high score on the NAC OCSE. A score of 80+, even with a mediocre EE score will give you a shot at an interview The bottom line is, if you want to get an interview, you need an amazing score, not just passing or getting by. Taking the test so quickly probably won't get you that grade 2. Canadian electives/experience is fantastic. However, for Ontario FM, it won't get you in the door. You need the marks on EE and NAC. Once you get an IV based on exam marks, then your electives will help you a lot. Again, i know persons that have >12wks of electives but since their EE scores were not stellar, they were filtered out by the Ont FM algorithm These 2 points are mainly for Ontario FM. For Sask, and Manitoba, I have heard of people with mid 300 EE scores getting IVs. I don't know much about the scores needed for BC, AB , QC, or maritimes, so I won't comment on them. Essentially I would shoot for 400 on the EE, and even if you fall short at 350-360, that should give you a fair shake at MB and SK, but you won't get ONT FM w.out 400. Wow I didn't know that. Thanks for the information. Definitely don't want to rush into writing this exam anymore. If Canada is your only shot at residency, what other choice do you have? Or are you applying in other countries as well? I focused purely on Canada for this year. I am planning to write my Step 2 CK for US and may be I will apply there next year. As of now, I decided to not rush into writing the EE again and possibly forget about Canada altogether. Next year, for IMG's the NAC OSCE is mandated and to overcome my fail attempt of EE, I will have to write QE1. That's a total of 3 board exams for a very small chance of getting in. If I have the time, resources, and motivation to write all three exams, I might consider it but as for now, I am switching my path to apply for residency in the US. We'll see how that goes or I might just be in the wrong career field. (Although, the feedback from my preceptors would say otherwise lol) Thanks for all your responses everyone! Great discussion and hopefully it helps others in my situation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.