medigeek Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 Extremely important news for all Canadian pre-meds applying to DO schools. While Carms considers DO to be an CMG equivalent, the MCC is now very likely to consider DO to be the equivalent of an IMG in Canada. This means that the changes will be implemented all across Canada and the odds of getting a residency will be as low as IMGs or lower depending on how the program directors see DOs. http://mcc.ca/about/mcc-and-route-to-licensure/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackintosh Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 I wasn't too hopeful about matching in Canada after my DO degree. Looks like now its official. Gonna focus on matching in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 Extremely important news for all Canadian pre-meds applying to DO schools. While Carms considers DO to be an CMG equivalent, the MCC is now very likely to consider DO to be the equivalent of an IMG in Canada. This means that the changes will be implemented all across Canada and the odds of getting a residency will be as low as IMGs or lower depending on how the program directors see DOs. http://mcc.ca/about/mcc-and-route-to-licensure/ missed this when it was posted - that actually is very big news. I just came from a talk done by a very prominent doctor that covered DO as a part of the lecture - his thoughts were the lack of proper regulation has seriously weakened the credibility of the program and now US residency are further pulling back (he chairs a major department in the US). Wasn't exactly painting a good picture here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 So, you can still get a residency in the US.. then come back to Canada, no? yeah but the question is will you be able to in 4 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mashmetoo Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 missed this when it was posted - that actually is very big news. I just came from a talk done by a very prominent doctor that covered DO as a part of the lecture - his thoughts were the lack of proper regulation has seriously weakened the credibility of the program and now US residency are further pulling back (he chairs a major department in the US). Wasn't exactly painting a good picture here. Lack of proper regulation of what? education? Accreditation? Credibility of what program? AOA? DO schools in general? US residencies are further pulling back - meaning? Less residencies? Less DO residencies? Less MD residencies accepting DO grads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBoss Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 To an extent this doesn't surprise me. I am not well informed on osteopathic medicine, so take this with a grain of salt but this is how I see it. I don't see how the DO degree/profession can stay strong when the AOA seems to have failed to protect it. In the US, DO schools appear to be effectively nothing more than medical schools ranked below MD schools. Rather than have students who are are legitimately interested in OMM and choose it over MD schools, DO schools seem to be filled with students who only took the DO route because they were not offered a seat in MD schools. With a student body that doesn't truly care about OMM, the new generation of DO physicians lacks renewed, strong leadership in the AOA and what leadership there is is not well supported by, and lacks legitimacy among, it members. Though DO practictioners will continue to be able to practice just fine, I don't see the profession lasting in the long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking1 Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 I am confused. So, with the MCC now recognizing Canadian-born DO's as IMG's, yet CaRMS still recognizing Canadian-born DO's as CMG's, what impact does that pragmatically have on a Canadian-born DO applying to Canadian residencies? Can anyone clarify? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackintosh Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 missed this when it was posted - that actually is very big news. I just came from a talk done by a very prominent doctor that covered DO as a part of the lecture - his thoughts were the lack of proper regulation has seriously weakened the credibility of the program and now US residency are further pulling back (he chairs a major department in the US). Wasn't exactly painting a good picture here. That doesn't sound right. AOA and ACGME are merging to jointly accredit residencies in the future. So whatever was lacking in the regulation of residencies will be adjusted for. The accreditation of schools is a different issue, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medigeek Posted June 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 I am confused. So, with the MCC now recognizing Canadian-born DO's as IMG's, yet CaRMS still recognizing Canadian-born DO's as CMG's, what impact does that pragmatically have on a Canadian-born DO applying to Canadian residencies? Can anyone clarify? Your DO is now the same as a carribean/ireland/australian MD. Though considering program directors arent familiar with DOs, its likely below other IMGs depending on who's looking at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 Your DO is now the same as a carribean/ireland/australian MD. Though considering program directors arent familiar with DOs, its likely below other IMGs depending on who's looking at it. Would that matter for CaRMS at all though? I didn't think the MCC had any role in the match process. In fact, as far as I can tell, besides administering their own sticker of approval (IE LMCC), they have no real role in anything. Wouldn't DO's still be CMG's for the match based on current CaRMS rules, even if the MCC changes how they classify them? If this doesn't change the current CaRMS situation with DO students, it shouldn't be a big deal. They'd just have to do the EE and the NAC (?) prior to getting doing the regular LMCC 1/2. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
advair250 Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 Your DO is now the same as a carribean/ireland/australian MD. Though considering program directors arent familiar with DOs, its likely below other IMGs depending on who's looking at it. The backdoor into Canadian residency as a DO (CMG before), is now closed. Irish and carrib MDs will have more brand recognition for Canadian residencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
advair250 Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 Would that matter for CaRMS at all though? I didn't think the MCC had any role in the match process. In fact, as far as I can tell, besides administering their own sticker of approval (IE LMCC), they have no real role in anything. Wouldn't DO's still be CMG's for the match based on current CaRMS rules, even if the MCC changes how they classify them? If this doesn't change the current CaRMS situation with DO students, it shouldn't be a big deal. They'd just have to do the EE and the NAC (?) prior to getting doing the regular LMCC 1/2. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. CARMS will change to reflect the MCC changes. The NAC is an exam only for IMGs, which DOs are now IMGs. CARMS will reflect that, and DOs will no longer be 1st iteration with CMGs, but in the IMG iteration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 Would that matter for CaRMS at all though? I didn't think the MCC had any role in the match process. In fact, as far as I can tell, besides administering their own sticker of approval (IE LMCC), they have no real role in anything. Wouldn't DO's still be CMG's for the match based on current CaRMS rules, even if the MCC changes how they classify them? If this doesn't change the current CaRMS situation with DO students, it shouldn't be a big deal. They'd just have to do the EE and the NAC (?) prior to getting doing the regular LMCC 1/2. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. you are right - my thoughts though are that the major licensing body in Canada has just said - hey, this type of medical training is not the same caliber as a US MD - we are worried enough to require more testing of them. Officially that doesn't change yet anything with CARMS. Unofficially it sounds like a statement that is going to have effects with everyone involved and may lead to more changes down the line. I mean my next question on reading it was - ok, why did they do that? What was the motivation? No answer to that question is going to help anyone trying to match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 CARMS will change to reflect the MCC changes. The NAC is an exam only for IMGs, which DOs are now IMGs. CARMS will reflect that, and DOs will no longer be 1st iteration with CMGs, but in the IMG iteration. Quite possibly so - wouldn't surprise me although they may not. Effectively I have to worry it won't matter as the effect will be the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mashmetoo Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 you are right - my thoughts though are that the major licensing body in Canada has just said - hey, this type of medical training is not the same caliber as a US MD - we are worried enough to require more testing of them. Officially that doesn't change yet anything with CARMS. Unofficially it sounds like a statement that is going to have effects with everyone involved and may lead to more changes down the line. I mean my next question on reading it was - ok, why did they do that? What was the motivation? No answer to that question is going to help anyone trying to match. Not the same caliber? Come on man, that's your opinion. To me it sounds like classic protectionism now it's shown that DOs can take the spots of CMGs in the 1st iteration as we have in the 2014 cycle. To me it sounds like.. "Oh.. looks like we'll have more CMGs going unmatched in the 1st it with these DOs in the same iteration. Lets kick them out" What caliber are you referring to? The average DO who wants to come back to Canada has to take both the COMLEX and USMLE series, + MCCEE. Can you say the same about the average CMG? How many national level exams does the average CMG take prior to residency application? Do they even take ONE? (- the USMLE step 1) if they want to stay in Canada? To me, the average CMG is ill equipped for residencies in the US with their severe lack of testing And please, the MCCEE, MCCQE1 felt like a game a checkers compared to the chess of the USMLEs, even the COMLEX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 What caliber are you referring to? The average DO who wants to come back to Canada has to take both the COMLEX and USMLE series, + MCCEE. Can you say the same about the average CMG? How many national level exams does the average CMG take prior to residency application? Do they even take ONE? (- the USMLE step 1) if they want to stay in Canada? To me, the average CMG is ill equipped for residencies in the US with their severe lack of testing I wrote step 1 way back when and probably should have done step 2 CK when I wrote the LMCC Part I. I'm not sure how knowing about obscure pathology or answering innumerable questions on Rocky Mountain spotter fever helped better "equip" me for residency. Of course, the standards for Canadian residency programs are arguably higher when it comes to accreditation and examination. Thankfully my Royal College exams are still a few years away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medigeek Posted June 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 Would that matter for CaRMS at all though? I didn't think the MCC had any role in the match process. In fact, as far as I can tell, besides administering their own sticker of approval (IE LMCC), they have no real role in anything. Wouldn't DO's still be CMG's for the match based on current CaRMS rules, even if the MCC changes how they classify them? If this doesn't change the current CaRMS situation with DO students, it shouldn't be a big deal. They'd just have to do the EE and the NAC (?) prior to getting doing the regular LMCC 1/2. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. No, the entire issue is that matching as a CMG is now closed. I wrote step 1 way back when and probably should have done step 2 CK when I wrote the LMCC Part I. I'm not sure how knowing about obscure pathology or answering innumerable questions on Rocky Mountain spotter fever helped better "equip" me for residency. Of course, the standards for Canadian residency programs are arguably higher when it comes to accreditation and examination. Thankfully my Royal College exams are still a few years away... I think his point is that it's harder if you're down there, than up here. So the argument that it isnt up to standard is clearly not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
advair250 Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 They could do whatever they want. At the end of the day, if you don't get into a Canadian Medical School or a Allopathic Medical school, the next best thing is DO schools (with 70% residency match). I have friends with American Citizenship that went to the Caribbean for medical school and they couldn't even match back to the US. They should have done DO. Then those friends didn't deserve to match. It is not as common for Carrib graduates with US citizenship to go unmatched, if they are average to above average applicants compared to Carrib graduates with Canadian citizenship only. Citizenship or lack of, closes many doors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edict Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 Then those friends didn't deserve to match. It is not as common for Carrib graduates with US citizenship to go unmatched, if they are average to above average applicants compared to Carrib graduates with Canadian citizenship only. Citizenship or lack of, closes many doors. Yeah. The stats for SGU for US IMGs was around 80% match rate. That is actually quite a good stat. I read that there was an attrition of 20%. So basically if you go to SGU your chance of coming out with a residency at the end of the day is 64% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 No, the entire issue is that matching as a CMG is now closed. Is it? Has CaRMS released a statement to that effect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted June 15, 2014 Report Share Posted June 15, 2014 Not the same caliber? Come on man, that's your opinion. To me it sounds like classic protectionism now it's shown that DOs can take the spots of CMGs in the 1st iteration as we have in the 2014 cycle. To me it sounds like.. "Oh.. looks like we'll have more CMGs going unmatched in the 1st it with these DOs in the same iteration. Lets kick them out" What caliber are you referring to? The average DO who wants to come back to Canada has to take both the COMLEX and USMLE series, + MCCEE. Can you say the same about the average CMG? How many national level exams does the average CMG take prior to residency application? Do they even take ONE? (- the USMLE step 1) if they want to stay in Canada? To me, the average CMG is ill equipped for residencies in the US with their severe lack of testing And please, the MCCEE, MCCQE1 felt like a game a checkers compared to the chess of the USMLEs, even the COMLEX. well of course it is my interpretation of the most likely reason the system changed. Not the only one - but there are challenges facing DO schools. There has been an explosion of the number of DO schools in the last 10 years and one of the reasons that is possible is it is easier to set one up, and costs are lower than the MD counterparts. It is hard to maintain high standards in any rapidly expanding area - particularly in the rather fragmented US system of education. Protectionism is always a possibility (there is always politics so it helps to keep an open mind) - although that does seem like a round about way of doing it. Instead of directly changing carms they change a rule with the exams(?) Why this way? Ha - I am often overly analytical, and if there is a rule I push to find out way rather than just accepting it. The motivation is important. In this case the rule change doesn't really stop an DO from applying - you do have to complete the test of course. Timing of that test is a possible annoyance. The other possibility to mention is that is that of a cash grab. I mean that test is another 1600 - it is more than the MCCQE 1, and not at all difficult to administrate (it is after all just a multiple choice test). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted June 15, 2014 Report Share Posted June 15, 2014 Is it? Has CaRMS released a statement to that effect? Not that I am aware. Searched CARMS to see if they had but didn't find anything changed - DO is still on the eligible page just like before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medigeek Posted June 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2014 Is it? Has CaRMS released a statement to that effect? Sorry no, it's a proposed change with the (obvious) high likelihood of passing through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted June 15, 2014 Report Share Posted June 15, 2014 Sorry no, it's a proposed change with the (obvious) high likelihood of passing through. Interesting - where did you hear this (it would be consistent with the other change of course)? The timeline would be obviously important. I mean we have DO in the system of course fully expecting to return via that route etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4lyfe Posted June 15, 2014 Report Share Posted June 15, 2014 ................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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