Ontario Schools for OOP applicants

[maybenow]

Probably one of the weirder threads to post, as most posters ARE in Ontario trying to get into Alberta or something (I joke, I joke! ).

 

But does anybody remember the official stats OR policies concerning non-Ontario residents wishing to gain entry into an Ontario medical school?

 

For example, you'd have to live 1+ year(s) in Alberta to be considered IP in Alberta (that has changed with U of C, but I disgress). But I cannot remember the parallel info concerning ON schools.

 

Thank you!

[ameltingbanana]

Each school in ON varies, but in general it's more advantageous to be outside ON as most schools either have a really selective area/geographical bias or don't care at all. Except for McMaster. Off the top of my head:

 

• Toronto: doesn't care where you're from
  
• Queen's: doesn't care where you're from
  
• NOSM: Gives points toward a "context score", which evaluates your ties to Ontario's north.
  
• Ottawa: Preference given toward individuals from the Ottawa area, GPA required for interview are a fair bit higher if you're outside the Ottawa area or OOP.
  
• UWO: preference given to candidates who went to high school in certain regions of southwestern ON (aka SWOMEN)
  
• McMaster: reserves 80% of interviews for ON applicants - everyone is on equal footing post interview
  

 

As you're IP for Alberta (guessing this from your post), you probably don't qualify for the criteria at the latter 4 schools, but are on equal footing for UofT and Queens. Hope this helps.

[shearkha]

For Ottawa I believe as long as you meet the OOP wGPA cut-off for full file review you are not at a disadvantage compared to IP applicants. No?

[ameltingbanana]

Yeah, I believe you're right on that front. I think the IP but out of Ottawa GPA is 3.85, and OOP is 3.89. Don't quote me on that though...

[maybenow]

Re: Ottawa: yes, I think you're right. I recall that they assess your last 3 full-course years and the wGPA for those 3 years must >3.89 if you're OOP. 3.89 isn't sky-high, but if you think about it, it aint low either!

 

Ok re: NOSM, I'm confused. I hear people say that they wouldn't have a shot there because they're not northern/rural (I am neither of these 2 things). But if NOSM just evaluates your best 4 years based on GPA + MCAT, how would they differentiate a "rural/northern" from a regular candidate?

[maybenow]

Ameltingbanana (nice name ) so if you're a Toronto-born resident then the only *advantage* you have over OOP residents is with Mac, is that right? As you wouldn't qualify for special treatment with NOSM, nor with UWO?

[ralk]

Re: Ottawa: yes, I think you're right. I recall that they assess your last 3 full-course years and the wGPA for those 3 years must >3.89 if you're OOP. 3.89 isn't sky-high, but if you think about it, it aint low either!

 

Ok re: NOSM, I'm confused. I hear people say that they wouldn't have a shot there because they're not northern/rural (I am neither of these 2 things). But if NOSM just evaluates your best 4 years based on GPA + MCAT, how would they differentiate a "rural/northern" from a regular candidate?

 

NOSM does what they call a "context score" based on where you've lived previously and where you're living now. There's no real way around it, they're asking for that information directly, and it's why most people shouldn't bother applying unless they're from an area (rural or northern) that's part of NOSM's mandate.

[ralk]

Ameltingbanana (nice name ) so if you're a Toronto-born resident then the only *advantage* you have over OOP residents is with Mac, is that right? As you wouldn't qualify for special treatment with NOSM, nor with UWO?

 

Ottawa as well - you wouldn't be part of the near-Ottawa group but the Ontario crowd still does have a slight edge over OOP applicants.

 

Unfortunately, the way the mandates work, it's not just Toronto applicants that only have a small advantage over OPP applicants. People from places like Kitchener, Guelph, or St. Catherine's get no real legs up either, despite being from communities that - unlike Toronto - aren't exactly oversupplied by physicians. The patchwork system we have now for geographical preference works great on the extreme ends - I'd argue for Northern Ontario and Toronto it's doing exactly what it was intended to - but is reasonably unfair in the more grey zones; being from London gives you a decent edge at Western, while being 1.5 hours down the road in Waterloo gives you no real edge anywhere.

[uwopremed]

Each school in ON varies, but in general it's more advantageous to be outside ON as most schools either have a really selective area/geographical bias or don't care at all. Except for McMaster. Off the top of my head:

 

• Toronto: doesn't care where you're from
  
• Queen's: doesn't care where you're from
  
• NOSM: Gives points toward a "context score", which evaluates your ties to Ontario's north.
  
• Ottawa: Preference given toward individuals from the Ottawa area, GPA required for interview are a fair bit higher if you're outside the Ottawa area or OOP.
  
• UWO: preference given to candidates who went to high school in certain regions of southwestern ON (aka SWOMEN)
  
• McMaster: reserves 80% of interviews for ON applicants - everyone is on equal footing post interview
  

 

As you're IP for Alberta (guessing this from your post), you probably don't qualify for the criteria at the latter 4 schools, but are on equal footing for UofT and Queens. Hope this helps.

 

UWO preference for SWOMEN is flexibility in the distribution of the MCAT score. You still need a total score of 32 or you are immediately rejected. For the rest of Ontario and Canada, you need a 12 in Bio, 11 in Verbal, 9 in Physics. GPA is only 3.7 for two years. SWOMEN preference post interview is slight, but present.

[uwopremed]

Yeah, I believe you're right on that front. I think the IP but out of Ottawa GPA is 3.85, and OOP is 3.89. Don't quote me on that though...

 

To be fair, 3.85 and 3.89 aren't exactly stratospheric cutoffs anyways. But they are higher than the Ottawa area people.

[ralk]

To be fair, 3.85 and 3.89 aren't exactly stratospheric cutoffs anyways. But they are higher than the Ottawa area people.

 

Highest cutoffs in Ontario. Ottawa's known as a GPA school for a reason. Maybe for someone getting consistent 4.0's that no big deal, but for those of us who have gotten a B or two in our lives (hardly an indication of serious academic weakness), it's a fairly high threshold - if an OOP applicant got a single B+ in a half-year course, they'd need 2 A's and 7 A+'s in their other half-year courses just to meet the cutoff. In some programs that's a near impossible feat - and it's why some med schools have shifted their focus away from such high GPA requirements.

[mountainaxe46]

To be fair, 3.85 and 3.89 aren't exactly stratospheric cutoffs anyways. But they are higher than the Ottawa area people.

 

Those are very high GPA cutoffs! They are higher than the average GPA for the entire med school class at Harvard.

[StarryNight]

Keep in mind, though, that they have a weighting formula where the latest years count more. If you had Bs in your first year and you apply in your fourth, the Bs wouldn't even factor in.

 

Read about Ottawa's weighting method here: http://www.med.uottawa.ca/Students/MD/Admissions/eng/excellence_marks.html

 

My undergraduate CGPA was 3.86 but weighted at Ottawa I had a 3.96, a considerable upgrade! I landed an interview with a B+ in my last, most highly weighted, year as an OOP applicant.

[maybenow]

You still need a total score of 32 or you are immediately rejected. For the rest of Ontario and Canada, you need a 12 in Bio, 11 in Verbal, 9 in Physics.

 

Oh actually, I believe verbal has gone up from 11 to a 12 now. :eek: sad face.

[maybenow]

NOSM does what they call a "context score" based on where you've lived previously and where you're living now. There's no real way around it, ...

 

Hi ralk. Oh, i see. I've heard of people saying that they shouldn't bother for NOSM but I never quite understood why. I am neither rural nor northern by their definition... basically, since they are asking you flat out about this, does that mean generally speaking that you'd not have a chance? Based on anecdotal evidence (or real ones, if they publish it), NOSM's interview invitations do tend to go to those who are northern/rural?

[maybenow]

Keep in mind, though, that they have a weighting formula where the latest years count more. If you had Bs in your first year and you apply in your fourth, the Bs wouldn't even factor in.

 

My undergraduate CGPA was 3.86 but weighted at Ottawa I had a 3.96, a considerable upgrade! I landed an interview with a B+ in my last, most highly weighted, year as an OOP applicant.

 

Hi StarryNight, congrats! I am confused hehe - don't they weigh the last of the 3 years more than they do the 2nd or the 1st of those 3 years? And you say you got a B+ (in a course? or as an average) in that last year?

[StarryNight]

Hi StarryNight, congrats! I am confused hehe - don't they weigh the last of the 3 years more than they do the 2nd or the 1st of those 3 years? And you say you got a B+ (in a course? or as an average) in that last year?

 

There are different weighting methods used depending on the number of years that the applicant has studied, with specific rules for what determines a full-time year. I suggest reading the page I linked yourself for a better description of their rules, but I can describe the weighting that applied to me when I applied with more than 3 years of full-time studies.

 

If you are applying with 3 or more full-time years, they use only the most recent three years. The GPA of the most recent year is multiplied by 3, the GPA of the 2nd most recent year is multiplied by 2, and the GPA from 3 years prior is multiplied by 1. These weights are then added together and divided by 6.

 

As a formula,

wGPA = (3*Y3 + 2*Y2 + 1*Y1)/6 where Y3 is the most recent year, Y2 is 1 year prior to that, and Y1 is 2 years prior to that.

 

I had a single B+ for a course in my last year of studies.

[maybenow]

That makes sense Starrynight. With a single B+ that year it makes sense that you gained entry . Congrats by the way.

 

P.S. I had better make sure my next year is better, or at least as good as this past year! Ottawa's system is great for those who improve over time. But the pressure's on... you can't do more poorly as you get older.

[ameltingbanana]

Ameltingbanana (nice name ) so if you're a Toronto-born resident then the only *advantage* you have over OOP residents is with Mac, is that right? As you wouldn't qualify for special treatment with NOSM, nor with UWO?

 

Yup essentially. I'm from Hamilton originally myself, so I didn't receive advantages anywhere except Mac interview-wise. Everyone else has been pretty spot on RE: NOSM's context score and how SWOMEN works at UWO.

[rmorelan]

That makes sense Starrynight. With a single B+ that year it makes sense that you gained entry . Congrats by the way.

 

P.S. I had better make sure my next year is better, or at least as good as this past year! Ottawa's system is great for those who improve over time. But the pressure's on... you can't do more poorly as you get older.

 

of course the flip side is there too-a single bad senior year course can wipe out earlier gains. I have seen that too - fortunately there are a variety of approaches from various schools and thus multiple opportunities

[ralk]

Oh actually, I believe verbal has gone up from 11 to a 12 now. :eek: sad face.

 

MCAT cutoffs at Western don't get released until interview invites go out, since they're set based on the applicant pool. Any rumors of the Verbal cutoff increasing to 12 are completely unfounded at this point in the game - even the admissions staff doesn't know what the cutoff will be yet!

 

Hi ralk. Oh, i see. I've heard of people saying that they shouldn't bother for NOSM but I never quite understood why. I am neither rural nor northern by their definition... basically, since they are asking you flat out about this, does that mean generally speaking that you'd not have a chance? Based on anecdotal evidence (or real ones, if they publish it), NOSM's interview invitations do tend to go to those who are northern/rural?

 

I don't know the interview stats, but I remember seeing the final class stats when I was thinking of applying there at it was something like 1 person in the past 7 years wasn't from a northern or rural area. When people say don't bother applying if you're not from those areas, they mean it. NOSM has a mandate to supply physicians to northern and rural areas, and to their credit, they follow that mandate fairly strictly.

[maybenow]

MCAT cutoffs at Western don't get released until interview invites go out, since they're set based on the applicant pool. Any rumors of the Verbal cutoff increasing to 12 are completely unfounded at this point in the game - even the admissions staff doesn't know what the cutoff will be yet!

 

Wow! *crosses NOSM out.* Thanks for explaining that.

 

Wait... then WHOOOOO said that VR had gone up to 12 at Western then? I read it here somewhere. Bah humbug, I've had it wrong this whole time!

 

Oh, if cut offs for that school DON'T get released before people apply - does that mean that most people applying are just "basing" their apps on last year's stats, and hoping they don't change? So essentially you apply, hope you're a strong enough candidate and that nothing drastic has changed, and wait until interview invitations to see if you've made the cut. Did I get that right.

[chanman82]

Wow! *crosses NOSM out.* Thanks for explaining that.

 

Wait... then WHOOOOO said that VR had gone up to 12 at Western then? I read it here somewhere. Bah humbug, I've had it wrong this whole time!

 

Oh, if cut offs for that school DON'T get released before people apply - does that mean that most people applying are just "basing" their apps on last year's stats, and hoping they don't change? So essentially you apply, hope you're a strong enough candidate and that nothing drastic has changed, and wait until interview invitations to see if you've made the cut. Did I get that right.

 

Yup, Western's cut-offs for the last cycle were fairly challenging to meet (10PS/11VR/12BS). Since the cut-offs tend to be fairly stable year to year, people do decide whether to apply based on previous years. Unfortunately, those who may have done so last year then found out that the BS cut-off rose to 12. For SWOMEN candidates, the minimum total score rose from 30 to 32.

 

Your summary is essentially right and even if you are just below the cut-off in one or two sections, it is probably worth applying since you don't lose anything by adding Western to your list and there are no supplementary materials to submit.

 

In my opinion, the cut-offs will stay stable till next year, since I think raising the VR anymore and only interviewing people with VR of 12 and BS of 12 would be too limiting. After the 2015 MCAT comes into play (next cycle), who knows what will happen?

[rmorelan]

Wow! *crosses NOSM out.* Thanks for explaining that.

 

Wait... then WHOOOOO said that VR had gone up to 12 at Western then? I read it here somewhere. Bah humbug, I've had it wrong this whole time!

 

Oh, if cut offs for that school DON'T get released before people apply - does that mean that most people applying are just "basing" their apps on last year's stats, and hoping they don't change? So essentially you apply, hope you're a strong enough candidate and that nothing drastic has changed, and wait until interview invitations to see if you've made the cut. Did I get that right.

 

Last two years it was an 11 for VR

 

exactly people guess that the cut offs are pretty stable. Actually for 3 years there that was exactly true but then the WS section was dropped from the MCAT and perhaps people just kept retaking the test to push themselves to the old cut offs a bit harder. As a result they adjusted them upwards to compensate.

 

Also some selections in the past actually fell (WS, and GPA for instance) so really you just don't know. People apply if they are even close to the cut offs in the hope they fall (low risk and high reward type of gamble). Of course usually that doesn't work but still it is kind of a why not type of thing

[maybenow]

Yup, Western's cut-offs for the last cycle were fairly challenging to meet (10PS/11VR/12BS). Since the cut-offs tend to be fairly stable year to year, people do decide whether to apply based on previous years.

...After the 2015 MCAT comes into play (next cycle), who knows what will happen?

 

Last two years it was an 11 for VR

exactly people guess that the cut offs are pretty stable. ...

 

Ah Ok. I have a silly question - prior to issuing out interview invites, Western doesn't look at you holistically right? Meaning it's up to your GPA and MCAT scores. This means that even though you're applying through OMSAS generally, and you fill in the 48 sketches or w/e, Western just "chooses" to not look at that part of your applicaton?"

 

Yes, I am really worried about the 2015 MCAT. I wonder how schools generally will assess the marks. How will it be the first 2015 cohort? Esp for schools like Western, where a stringent cutoff is used. I'm worried!