Ask A Current Macmed Student A Question

[PurpleS]

From what I've noticed, McMaster students get the most clinical exposure in pre-clerk. This is because we don't spend nearly as much time in the class as other schools. This allows more time for exploration via horizontals electives/observerships, or to pursue other things you're interested in such as research.

 

As mentioned before, we get to deliver babies, close surgeries, and see patients all by ourselves during pre-clerkship. We have a mandatory family medicine placement in first year during pre-clerk where we spend 18 hours in a family physician's office: most students get to take histories, administer vaccines, and perform physical exams.

 

In our pro-comp curriculum, we get to learn how to deal with complex histories involving topics such as depression, erectile dysfunction, difficult social history, dementia, etc.

 

Yes, our anatomy program is not the best and we don't do dissections - but honestly, dissections can be a HUGE waste of time. As inexperienced students, most of the time you cut through the important anatomy that you want to observe.

 

Edit: One thing that I think is a honest disadvantage in our program is our clerkship streams. We don't do all of our core rotations before our electives. But on the other hand, I've never heard of anyone be majorly screwed over for CaRMS because of their clerkship stream.

[PurpleS]

Thanks for the honest input.

Personally my dream is to be an MD and if Mac is the only option then I will take it, but it is really disheartening to hear that after a tough road to get into medical school, you will need to struggle with lottery systems and personal connections to learn basic medical skills like delivery and suturing. How does Mac get away with having what to me seems like a subpar program? 

 

I'm pretty sure there's no suturing 101 or delivery 101 at any other medical schools either, lol. It's not like you take a class in these skills - you learn them during clerkship and on the wards. I think Mac is ahead of the game because we get these exposures in pre-clerk.

 

I personally think our program is awesome, but I might be biased, haha.

[Organomegaly]

 

Edit: One thing that I think is a honest disadvantage in our program is our clerkship streams. We don't do all of our core rotations before our electives. But on the other hand, I've never heard of anyone be majorly screwed over for CaRMS because of their clerkship stream.

 

yeah, but we also have a lot of elective time to begin with 

[PurpleS]

Yeah, but it's a disadvantage if you want to do an elective at a school that requires you to do your core rotation first and you get a stream that doesn't have the core until after CaRMS (hopefully this sentence made sense).

[Organomegaly]

 

 

I think there's a line between being self-directed and keen vs having zero suturing skills and the school saying "go watch a youtube video and go at it at home" ahhahaha I could do that tonight, maybe I can just skip med school and go straight to residency. HAHA. I'm joking; but really kind of surprised at what I have read in this thread!!!

 

not really like that. all the opportunities are there. like others have said, there are huge amounts of clinical exposure in our pre clerkship. suturing you can get through interest groups, workshops, and horizontal electives (re: cardiac surgery!!!! for mac meds reading this. would highly recommend this for elective). 

 

once you're in med school, you will really appreciate the freedom to do clinical that mac gives. you will be sick of constant book studying, and horizontals are amazing refreshments. i think mac does a good job of teaching you fundamentals in tutorial and lecture. 

[Organomegaly]

I'm pretty sure there's no suturing 101 or delivery 101 at any other medical schools either

 

there are not. lol

 

my friends at queens learn these skills in the same ways - workshops and interest groups. 

[amichel]

Yeah, but it's a disadvantage if you want to do an elective at a school that requires you to do your core rotation first and you get a stream that doesn't have the core until after CaRMS (hopefully this sentence made sense).

Almost all the schools will waive this requirement for 3 year schools or take an elective in the specialty instead of a core rotation as prerequisite.

 

Calgary has the same issue and we're in the midst of figuring out electives (mine are done thankfully!) and I don't think very many people have encountered issues in that respect.

[PurpleS]

Almost all the schools will waive this requirement for 3 year schools or take an elective in the specialty instead of a core rotation as prerequisite.

 

Calgary has the same issue and we're in the midst of figuring out electives (mine are done thankfully!) and I don't think very many people have encountered issues in that respect.

 

That's so good to hear! I know Queen's CTU/Internal waives this requirement for Mac students. I was slightly worried about it but luckily, I'm not gunning for anything SUPER competitive.

[amichel]

That's so good to hear! I know Queen's CTU/Internal waives this requirement for Mac students. I was slightly worried about it but luckily, I'm not gunning for anything SUPER competitive.

I'm sure you'll be fine!

[GGG]

How does Mac get away with having what to me seems like a subpar program? 

 

This is hilarious to me. 

 

- A McMaster Med Student.

[medhope15]

-

[lemonlime]

Some of what I'm hearing makes it sound like a lof of my clinical experiences will be determined by some sort of lottery system or luck with personal connections to match up with surgeons or people in fields I might later want to pursue. What happens if over 50% of my class wants the cardiac surgery electives and there aren't enough spots for everyone?

 

I think there is some confusion here that needs to be cleared up. The medical program at McMaster, like most Canadian medical schools, can be separated into two components: pre-clerkship and clerkship. Pre-clerkship is the classic school component with tutorials/lectures/labs/etc. Clerkship refers to the clinical component of the program where you do rotations in the various specialities full-time in hospitals and clinics. The conversation here is referring to clinical experiences during the pre-clerkship period. These are called horizontal electives at Mac, and unlike clerkship electives, these horizontals are entirely optional and unstructured.

 

The purpose of these horizontal electives is to let you explore different fields without significant commitment. Horizontals are not required for, do not replace, and are not mutually exclusive with block electives during clerkship. The advantage with this set up is if you figure out you hate something, you don't have to waste a block elective on it and conversely, if you find out you love something, you can set up a block elective in that field early on in clerkship. Since these are not technically part of the medical program and have zero impact on your future, you're right that there can be a lot of variability in opportunities depending on who you contact, what you're looking for, how flexible your schedule is, when you're looking for it, how proactive you are, etc. Mac actually allows students to get clinical experience much earlier than most schools - you simply don't have the time to observe a doc when you're in lectures 9-5 M-F. Some students do multiple single sessions in various specialties, others will set up something more long-term with a single preceptor. You can do half days, full days, overnight ER shifts, whatever you like. Given that Mac has such a large catchment area, chances are that anyone who wants to do a horizontal will get the chance to do so (you might just have to travel outside of Hamilton to a regional campus or community hospital). 

 

In clerkship, you have a set amount of time in mandatory core rotations in various specialties. The rest is electives, which you can schedule according to your interests. This part is where the meat of your training will occur anyways. If you didn't learn to suture in pre-clerkship, you are definitely going to have to learn it during your general surgery core rotation. Didn't get to deliver a baby? No way you're getting through your obs-gyn rotation without that skill. Every student is guaranteed to learn all these basic medical skills at some point during their training, it just might be in a different order/location/preceptor. In the unlikely event you didn't get that specific horizontal that you wanted during pre-clerkship, you have all of clerkship to get that experience as a clerk. Setting up electives at this point is much more regulated, with specific points of contact and coordinators to manage that in pretty much every department - this system is essentially the same in all medical schools. So no, most of your clinical experiences are not determined by a lottery system (at least no more than other medical schools; some might argue that the entire AFMC portal for setting up electives for all Canadian med schools is basically a lottery but that's another conversation for another day...)

 

Hope that helps to clear things up a bit! 

[Organomegaly]

 

 

I think there is some confusion here that needs to be cleared up. The medical program at McMaster, like most Canadian medical schools, can be separated into two components: pre-clerkship and clerkship. Pre-clerkship is the classic school component with tutorials/lectures/labs/etc. Clerkship refers to the clinical component of the program where you do rotations in the various specialities full-time in hospitals and clinics. The conversation here is referring to clinical experiences during the pre-clerkship period. These are called horizontal electives at Mac, and unlike clerkship electives, these horizontals are entirely optional and unstructured.

 

The purpose of these horizontal electives is to let you explore different fields without significant commitment. Horizontals are not required for, do not replace, and are not mutually exclusive with block electives during clerkship. The advantage with this set up is if you figure out you hate something, you don't have to waste a block elective on it and conversely, if you find out you love something, you can set up a block elective in that field early on in clerkship. Since these are not technically part of the medical program and have zero impact on your future, you're right that there can be a lot of variability in opportunities depending on who you contact, what you're looking for, how flexible your schedule is, when you're looking for it, how proactive you are, etc. Mac actually allows students to get clinical experience much earlier than most schools - you simply don't have the time to observe a doc when you're in lectures 9-5 M-F. Some students do multiple single sessions in various specialties, others will set up something more long-term with a single preceptor. You can do half days, full days, overnight ER shifts, whatever you like. Given that Mac has such a large catchment area, chances are that anyone who wants to do a horizontal will get the chance to do so (you might just have to travel outside of Hamilton to a regional campus or community hospital). 

 

In clerkship, you have a set amount of time in mandatory core rotations in various specialties. The rest is electives, which you can schedule according to your interests. This part is where the meat of your training will occur anyways. If you didn't learn to suture in pre-clerkship, you are definitely going to have to learn it during your general surgery core rotation. Didn't get to deliver a baby? No way you're getting through your obs-gyn rotation without that skill. Every student is guaranteed to learn all these basic medical skills at some point during their training, it just might be in a different order/location/preceptor. In the unlikely event you didn't get that specific horizontal that you wanted during pre-clerkship, you have all of clerkship to get that experience as a clerk. Setting up electives at this point is much more regulated, with specific points of contact and coordinators to manage that in pretty much every department - this system is essentially the same in all medical schools. So no, most of your clinical experiences are not determined by a lottery system (at least no more than other medical schools; some might argue that the entire AFMC portal for setting up electives for all Canadian med schools is basically a lottery but that's another conversation for another day...)

 

Hope that helps to clear things up a bit! 

 

 

Thanks for clarifying how the elective system works. 

 

Re medhope: there are plenty of horizontal electives for everyone. the opportunities are not sparse. in fact, when people get here they're more likely to find they're too busy to do as many of them as they once thought. but as lemon has said, they are definitely less structured opportunities. experiences can vary. to be honest, I think that is probably true for your block electives as well...some preceptors will be better than others, etc. 

[MF1-5]

Thanks for the honest input.

Personally my dream is to be an MD and if Mac is the only option then I will take it, but it is really disheartening to hear that after a tough road to get into medical school, you will need to struggle with lottery systems and personal connections to learn basic medical skills like delivery and suturing. How does Mac get away with having what to me seems like a subpar program? 

 

I think there's a line between being self-directed and keen vs having zero suturing skills and the school saying "go watch a youtube video and go at it at home" ahhahaha I could do that tonight, maybe I can just skip med school and go straight to residency. HAHA. I'm joking; but really kind of surprised at what I have read in this thread!!!

 

The Mac program is definitely not for everyone.  I know when you're a premed, the temptation is there to just get into as many schools as possible but if you are in a position to choose between schools, then it's really important to ask a lot of questions from students, residents, etc of the program. 

 

The truth though is the program does have quirks just like any program. 

 

I wouldn't say the program is subpar although I can see how someone who isn't fond of self directed learning and PBL would feel that way because it is definitely structured in a different way.  The school has a lot of resources for us and lots of opportunities for us to get help if needed.  It's a good place

[MacMed2018]

I love the teamwork in this thread!

[Edict]

 

 

Yes, our anatomy program is not the best and we don't do dissections - but honestly, dissections can be a HUGE waste of time. As inexperienced students, most of the time you cut through the important anatomy that you want to observe.

 

 

 

As a Mac Med student and as someone who did full body dissection before I have to say that dissections are not a huge waste of time. We get instructions so we rarely dissect through something we wanted to observe and also the dissection makes me much more confident with any sort of cutting or suturing or stapling that surgeons do. I also know anatomy a lot better because dissection involves tactile learning and you really take control of your own anatomy learning when you are dissecting a real person rather than looking at prosected specimens that were dissected years ago. 

 

In my opinion, dissections should be an optional part of the curriculum and they currently are. We do have a lottery for dissection however there are only 28 spots for all health science faculty students and a maximum of 200 can register for the lottery, so all in all if 200 people register your chances of getting a spot is quite low actually. For anyone interested in surgery, I strongly recommend dissection. 

 

That number should either be raised or reserved for only med students rather than any health science student. 

[Edict]

One piece of advice for anyone thinking of choosing McMaster. The 3 year program while on the surface sounding like it has disadvantages actually is advantageous in the long run. Post-graduate training times get longer and longer each year. More and more programs are adding fellowships or lengthening residency training times. Mac is right in that a lot of medical school time is actually wasted because the most productive time in learning to become a doctor is actually during residency rather than medical school. 

 

Residency is when you exclusively learn about the thing you will be doing for the rest of your life. No one comes out of medical school ready to be a surgeon or be a physician. By saving one year, you could easily add an extra year to your residency through a research year or a fellowship. Really, all medical school should do is give you the basic fundamentals, allow you to make a decision on specialty and give you a bit of clinical abilities to function on a basic level and 3 years is enough time for most people to do that. 

[amichel]

One piece of advice for anyone thinking of choosing McMaster. The 3 year program while on the surface sounding like it has disadvantages actually is advantageous in the long run. Post-graduate training times get longer and longer each year. More and more programs are adding fellowships or lengthening residency training times. Mac is right in that a lot of medical school time is actually wasted because the most productive time in learning to become a doctor is actually during residency rather than medical school.

 

Residency is when you exclusively learn about the thing you will be doing for the rest of your life. No one comes out of medical school ready to be a surgeon or be a physician. By saving one year, you could easily add an extra year to your residency through a research year or a fellowship. Really, all medical school should do is give you the basic fundamentals, allow you to make a decision on specialty and give you a bit of clinical abilities to function on a basic level and 3 years is enough time for most people to do that.

While I agree with you, it's important not to downplay the disadvantages of the three year program. Namely no breaks, and having to decide what you want to do usually before your core rotations (and doing your electives before your core potentially).

 

All of them are easily overcome with a bit of work, but it's certainly not for everyone and I think that needs to be acknowledged.

[Edict]

While I agree with you, it's important not to downplay the disadvantages of the three year program. Namely no breaks, and having to decide what you want to do usually before your core rotations (and doing your electives before your core potentially).

 

All of them are easily overcome with a bit of work, but it's certainly not for everyone and I think that needs to be acknowledged.

 

I totally agree with what you said there as well. I originally wrote my point up because I think a lot of people think that medical school is where you learn most of your knowledge rather than residency when the reality is that medical school is really just the primer and the background info. 

[PurpleS]

A lot of people are worried about not having enough research/clinical exposure/other experiences to be competitive for a residency program in a 3 year program due to lack of summers. McMaster has the option of completing an option enrichment year, which the student can take off in order to pursue more research, or even a Master's degree. Because this year is taken after pre-clerkship, you also have the option of taking extra electives so you can get extra clinical exposure, explore more options, and gather reference letters for CaRMS.

 

There's one person in my class who's taking the year to do research.

[PreMed2014]

Ask away ... about Mac Med !

 

Hi. A few questions. 

 

1) Were you an in or out of province applicant? I ask because I plan to apply, albeit, OOP, and I am really looking for any advice to maximize my chances of getting an interview. 

 

2) This one is a bit longer but what is the curriculum like, and how would someone coming from a non "traditional" science background who did not take common pre med undergrad courses like organic/bio/general chemistry do?   The reason why McMaster has caught my eye is because of its requirements, as well as it's 3 years opposed to 4. I excel in critical thinking/ethics/logic and McMaster doesn't seem to require anything like organic chemistry and just needs Casper/CARS. I've taken CARS practice tests and I don't like to brag but my scores have been consistently very high. I definitely, with absolute certainty know that I want to go into psychiatry. Hell I've had psychiatrists tell me that I'd make a good psychiatrist. I have some experience in the mental health field and have also been able to shadow a psychiatrist. My current major is psychology and I've taken general/micro biology, with some health science courses, health psychology, biomedical ethics, stuff like that. But yeah. Have not taken any organic chem, physics, statistics or calculus, so how would someone like me do in med school?

 

3) I don't expect to get into McMaster OOP. I know the chances are very slim as they only accept I think 12 OOP/cycle. However, I was thinking of doing my last year of my undergrad in Toronto, and then continuing on to do a masters in clinical or neuropsychology at U of T, McMaster or in Ottawa. So after 3 years, I would have in province status. Do you think this is a viable way to increase my chances of getting accepted?  

 

4) How is Hamilton in general? 

[Savac]

How does Mac get away with having what to me seems like a subpar program? 

 

Hey...

 

If it was so subpar, then why did so many students from our first year class want to be part of the Mac experience by photobombing them at OMSW?

 

Yeah, I have nothing productive to contribute to this thread.

[canucks_14]

I just have a question about the credit requirements to apply. I know you need 90 credits by May as stated on their website, but it is not clear if the 90 credits have to be completed BEFORE application or if it needs to be completed in May of the year in which you are starting medical school? I'm thinking it's the latter as I thought McMaster accepts 3rd year applicants.

 

Also, can college courses be used to satisfy the credit requirement? I know they won't be used in the GPA calculation, but what about just using them to satisfy the 90 credit requirement?

 

Thanks!!

 

 

EDIT: I just looked at the Ontario manual and I realized I never looked at the applicable year. So I'm certain that an applicant needs to have completed 90 credits by the May of which they will be starting medical school, not before the application. If someone could confirm this and also help me out with the college courses question above.

Also, where is the resource where I can convert BC school grades to the Ontario 4.0 scale?

 

EDIT 2: so McMaster gives 90% of interviews for Ontario residents? I always thought there was no benefit of being in Ontario for in province status?

[xkittens]

Hi. A few questions. 

 

1) Were you an in or out of province applicant? I ask because I plan to apply, albeit, OOP, and I am really looking for any advice to maximize my chances of getting an interview. 

 

2) This one is a bit longer but what is the curriculum like, and how would someone coming from a non "traditional" science background who did not take common pre med undergrad courses like organic/bio/general chemistry do?   The reason why McMaster has caught my eye is because of its requirements, as well as it's 3 years opposed to 4. I excel in critical thinking/ethics/logic and McMaster doesn't seem to require anything like organic chemistry and just needs Casper/CARS. I've taken CARS practice tests and I don't like to brag but my scores have been consistently very high. I definitely, with absolute certainty know that I want to go into psychiatry. Hell I've had psychiatrists tell me that I'd make a good psychiatrist. I have some experience in the mental health field and have also been able to shadow a psychiatrist. My current major is psychology and I've taken general/micro biology, with some health science courses, health psychology, biomedical ethics, stuff like that. But yeah. Have not taken any organic chem, physics, statistics or calculus, so how would someone like me do in med school?

 

3) I don't expect to get into McMaster OOP. I know the chances are very slim as they only accept I think 12 OOP/cycle. However, I was thinking of doing my last year of my undergrad in Toronto, and then continuing on to do a masters in clinical or neuropsychology at U of T, McMaster or in Ottawa. So after 3 years, I would have in province status. Do you think this is a viable way to increase my chances of getting accepted?  

 

4) How is Hamilton in general? 

 

Mac's curriculum has a "cut the crap" philosophy, the concepts that are emphasized are the ones that are actually important in clinical practice and what we learn is more focused. Other schools might have a more "shotgun" approach to teaching medicine, but you don't really end up remembering the random details a month after writing your exam so while it might feel like you're learning more, it might not be productive where it really matters. A lot of it is self directed, you get a few low-level lectures on each week's topic to get you started and the rest of the learning you do by yourself in PBL sessions- with a small group and a tutor. There are tons of people that do not have backgrounds in anything science related (we have people that were english majors), and they're doing just fine. There's obviously going to be a bit more of a struggle compared to someone that did... nursing, but it's not going to ruin you. 

 

As for not having taken any "science" courses, I think just having taken general biology is probably a good enough of a spring board to start learning medicine. Mac gives you a ton of resources and there are a lot of introductory textbooks that people without a science background use to get acquainted with the material. In general I've found that my senior level biology courses were much more complex than anything I've encountered in medical school so far, and rightfully so- because scientific complexity doesn't necessarily translate into clinical prowess. I wouldn't worry about not having done any organic chem or physics, it hardly comes up and even if it did there's always a classmate or tutor to help you figure it out. The same applies with math, as long as you can add and multiply you'll be fine

[Edict]

A lot of people are worried about not having enough research/clinical exposure/other experiences to be competitive for a residency program in a 3 year program due to lack of summers. McMaster has the option of completing an option enrichment year, which the student can take off in order to pursue more research, or even a Master's degree. Because this year is taken after pre-clerkship, you also have the option of taking extra electives so you can get extra clinical exposure, explore more options, and gather reference letters for CaRMS.

 

There's one person in my class who's taking the year to do research.

 

Also, for those thinking about the US, I actually can think of no better program than Mac because of the enrichment year. You are allowed to take a dozen or so weeks of electives in your enrichment year which can be spent in the US doing electives and in addition that time can be spent studying for the USMLE. Because the USMLE differs from the curriculum of many medical schools, having that extra time to self study really makes the difference. Also, the rest of the enrichment year can be spent doing research which will help you match as well.