rmorelan Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 From a practical point of view, I think a lot of second degrees are really now unfeasible - it seems like a huge shift in policy too - before it looked like they accepted one year second degrees (not sure how that worked!). But I guess there's not stipulation that all the years have to be full time (except the ones that count), so could maybe just extend the degree to avoid the appearance of having a senior year without the right course level. I guess that would be a way to overcome the barrier (and increase gpa taking 1xx level courses in first year), but still would take its toll in years.. I'm not even sure how many degrees in Quebec would count for instance, where it is by default a 3 year degree (honours or not) - with usually a strong mix of 2xx in years 1 and 2. you always needed I guess 2 years min in the second degree - that was the goal of any one trying to do this - to hit the best two years policy. You could use the first year though as a part of a conditional acceptance plan! Maybe that is what you are thinking of(?) As for Quebec - yeah not sure at all how that would work. Probably simply doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indefatigable Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 you always needed I guess 2 years min in the second degree - that was the goal of any one trying to do this - to hit the best two years policy. You could use the first year though as a part of a conditional acceptance plan! Maybe that is what you are thinking of(?) Yeah - I think if someone were trying to use a second degree, they could simply not graduate and delay applying for a year or maybe two (extending study time) to avoid the senior level conflict - kind of a waste of time though... i.e. complete the degree in essentially two years, but then take 1 or 2 courses part-time.. Here's what I found previously on the internet (earlier in thread) - Students who complete a second undergraduate degree within one year of full-time studies must register in 5.0 courses or equivalent. It's a little ambiguous but seems to mean students who actually finish a second degree in one year... As for Quebec - yeah not sure at all how that would work. Probably simply doesn't. The cegep system cuts a year off for students and second degree'ers. When I had looked into this, Western mentioned a different policy, ie 2x=senior level, but times have changed apparently... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 Yeah - I think if someone were trying to use a second degree, they could simply not graduate and delay applying for a year or maybe two (extending study time) to avoid the senior level conflict - kind of a waste of time though... i.e. complete the degree in essentially two years, but then take 1 or 2 courses part-time.. Here's what I found previously on the internet (earlier in thread) - Students who complete a second undergraduate degree within one year of full-time studies must register in 5.0 courses or equivalent. It's a little ambiguous but seems to mean students who actually finish a second degree in one year... The cegep system cuts a year off for students and second degree'ers. When I had looked into this, Western mentioned a different policy, ie 2x=senior level, but times have changed apparently... not sure how that would work only because you cannot use courses from the first degree anymore and you need two years (?). Strange what is always interesting is the reasons behind a change - I wonder if a lot of people basic were using the second degree to be able to take a full year of basically much easier first/second year courses again - except doing it with now 4th year+ experience and knowledge base (I mean you may not know the course material but you know a lot more about how to study, how to write a test, and how to write an essay for instance). They would then do amazing in that year - they are playing the game on "easy mode" after all - and then applying to get in. Maybe they felt this was a form of abuse to the system(?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siefer1322 Posted January 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 not sure how that would work only because you cannot use courses from the first degree anymore and you need two years (?). Strange what is always interesting is the reasons behind a change - I wonder if a lot of people basic were using the second degree to be able to take a full year of basically much easier first/second year courses again - except doing it with now 4th year+ experience and knowledge base (I mean you may not know the course material but you know a lot more about how to study, how to write a test, and how to write an essay for instance). They would then do amazing in that year - they are playing the game on "easy mode" after all - and then applying to get in. Maybe they felt this was a form of abuse to the system(?) No because if you did 2nd degree in one year, it had to be 3rd and 4th year courses only. Students who complete a second undergraduate degree within one year of full-time studies must register in 5.0 courses or equivalent. In this situation, at least 3.0 of the 5.0 courses must be at the third- or fourth-year leve Edit: Again, this is what it said before and they completely removed this, so I don't even know if you can do a "special year" like this anymore or what.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siefer1322 Posted January 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 In my personal case, it seems that next cycle I will be able to apply to Western, Queens, Dalhousie (OOP), and Calgary (OOP). If I dont land anything that time, I will only be able to apply to Queens, Dalhousie (OOP), and Calgary (OOP). Which means that the only "decent" change of getting in, would be through Queens and the other 2 are long long shots. I knew going to 2nd degree, my choices of schools applying would be limited already but to even cut that up even more is just demoralizing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 No because if you did 2nd degree in one year, it had to be 3rd and 4th year courses only. Students who complete a second undergraduate degree within one year of full-time studies must register in 5.0 courses or equivalent. In this situation, at least 3.0 of the 5.0 courses must be at the third- or fourth-year leve Edit: Again, this is what it said before and they completely removed this, so I don't even know if you can do a "special year" like this anymore or what.. hmmm interesting! I am not sure how you can even complete a degree in one year to be honest - Max I ever took was 7 courses a term for 3 straight terms including the summer. Even with that you wouldn't get a new degree and usually you need to have at least 60% of the courses non transfer for a new degree(?). I must be missing something anyway probably doesn't apply anymore as you said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 In my personal case, it seems that next cycle I will be able to apply to Western, Queens, Dalhousie (OOP), and Calgary (OOP). If I dont land anything that time, I will only be able to apply to Queens, Dalhousie (OOP), and Calgary (OOP). Which means that the only "decent" change of getting in, would be through Queens and the other 2 are long long shots. I knew going to 2nd degree, my choices of schools applying would be limited already but to even cut that up even more is just demoralizing. sorry to hear that - best of luck. Do what you can to make next year count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indefatigable Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 what is always interesting is the reasons behind a change - I wonder if a lot of people basic were using the second degree to be able to take a full year of basically much easier first/second year courses again - except doing it with now 4th year+ experience and knowledge base (I mean you may not know the course material but you know a lot more about how to study, how to write a test, and how to write an essay for instance). They would then do amazing in that year - they are playing the game on "easy mode" after all - and then applying to get in. Maybe they felt this was a form of abuse to the system(?) Yeah - that must have been it. But with enough time and resources, people will always find a way around the intent of a policy (ie. relative fairness in workload, etc..) - I hadn't thought of the essay angle though.. - not sure if the degree change actually will do much to change that. Imho doing a degree in two years is fairly time constrained and it would be hard to add in a lot of the relatively "bird type" courses you suggest . In the case of Western especially, gpa requirements are relatively low and the mcat seems to the major hurdle - non-swomen cut-offs especially - so not sure why they felt it was necessary. Don't even know how many people actually apply with a second degree - my guess would be less than 5%, but I could be wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 Yeah - that must have been it. But with enough time and resources, people will always find a way around the intent of a policy (ie. relative fairness in workload, etc..) - I hadn't thought of the essay angle though.. - not sure if the degree change actually will do much to change that. Imho doing a degree in two years is fairly time constrained and it would be hard to add in a lot of the relatively "bird type" courses you suggest . In the case of Western especially, gpa requirements are relatively low and the mcat seems to the major hurdle - non-swomen cut-offs especially - so not sure why they felt it was necessary. Don't even know how many people actually apply with a second degree - my guess would be less than 5%, but I could be wrong... not as many for sure - but lets take that 5% with 4000 applicants we are still talking about 200 people. That is more than the class size. Point is I guess there are big numbers at play here Not saying you added any fluff courses - but there probably is a way to structure a degree around easier courses, even if it is just for a year, and get a boost. If so that has to be blocked somehow for collective fairness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indefatigable Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 not as many for sure - but lets take that 5% with 4000 applicants we are still talking about 200 people. That is more than the class size. Point is I guess there are big numbers at play here Not saying you added any fluff courses - but there probably is a way to structure a degree around easier courses, even if it is just for a year, and get a boost. If so that has to be blocked somehow for collective fairness. Yeah that's true - looks like Western has about 2500 applicants, but point well taken - there would be still about 125 people. I did add a couple of filler half-courses - more out of lack of choices than anything else - 1 was marginally useful in retrospect in a broad sense (and in some sense fluffy compared to others), but I was a little naive and hadn't planned things down to the wire - a prior BSc with no time or experience in the lab (some lab time in high school though)! In any case, didn't end up mattering for me.. I would definitely say that there are ways to take easy courses - if one were to give oneself 3 years (time and money were more of an issue for me!), think one could really take a lot easier courses. Unfortunately, don't think the policy changes much in that regards - I think it's tougher to fit in "fluffy" electives in a 2 year degree than it is over a 3 or 4 year degree - people who were in 4 year degrees definitely seemed to have more space and time in their schedule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parisamnia Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 Can someone please help me? I am doing my second degree as well and just started my second semester. This year, 3/5 courses I am taking are 2nd year and the rest is 3rd year courses. I will be taking 3rd and 4th year courses next year and then will finish my second degree. Does this make me disqualified for Western? I was planning to apply in summer of 2017. I did not take any 1st year courses at all. Another question: I am an Ontario resident. What are my chances at McGill with a second degree? Thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siefer1322 Posted January 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Yes, you are disqualified from Western since 3/5 have to be 3rd + 4th year level. It is unfortunate and you are not the only one affected by this. If you can apply in the 16-17 cycle, then you will still be eligible, that will be the last cycle they will consider their old (senior year and above rules). I hope there are other schools you see yourself being competitive for (like Queens). Good luck and let me know if you have any more questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Yes, you are disqualified from Western since 3/5 have to be 3rd + 4th year level. It is unfortunate and you are not the only one affected by this. If you can apply in the 16-17 cycle, then you will still be eligible, that will be the last cycle they will consider their old (senior year and above rules). I hope there are other schools you see yourself being competitive for (like Queens). Good luck and let me know if you have any more questions. I wonder if they would still be able to apply under the conditional rules for next year at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siefer1322 Posted January 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 "For applicants such as yourself who are completing a second undergraduate degree, in the next application cycle (2016-17), we will accept 3 of 5 full or equivalent courses taken between September and April which are at the senior level. After that, course levels will be analogous to the requirement for a first degree." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 "For applicants such as yourself who are completing a second undergraduate degree, in the next application cycle (2016-17), we will accept 3 of 5 full or equivalent courses taken between September and April which are at the senior level. After that, course levels will be analogous to the requirement for a first degree." always hated that term "senior level" - being 2nd and above I believe. 2nd year courses still seem be junior level courses to me for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indefatigable Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 always hated that term "senior level" - being 2nd and above I believe. 2nd year courses still seem be junior level courses to me for some reason. I was also surprised that 2x level courses were considered "senior level". However, at the time I realized that a 2x course in one place may be a 3x level course at another place (university), and that even within a specific degree programs a 2x course from outside the program may be considered a 3x level course within the program. I think the "senior level rule" took care of these ambiguities, but clearly there is always room for misuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 I was also surprised that 2x level courses were considered "senior level". However, at the time I realized that a 2x course in one place may be a 3x level course at another place (university), and that even within a specific degree programs a 2x course from outside the program may be considered a 3x level course within the program. I think the "senior level rule" took care of these ambiguities, but clearly there is always room for misuse. could just say "not first year courses" - although I get your point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murrin Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 Assuming that Ottawa looks at 3 years instead of 2, did anyone choose to do a their 2nd degree in 3 years? It might seem more viable now since it would be much easier to work out prerequisites and still satisfy the 3/5 rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parisamnia Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 It is unfair. I started my 2nd degree in Fall and I enrolled in classes based on Western's current policies. They should, at least, make us eligible to apply for the 2017-18 cycle when most of us finish their second degrees. I was thinking maybe we should talk to admission's office to reconsider their decisions for those affected by the new rules. Anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 Assuming that Ottawa looks at 3 years instead of 2, did anyone choose to do a their 2nd degree in 3 years? It might seem more viable now since it would be much easier to work out prerequisites and still satisfy the 3/5 rule. exactly - in a new degree it would be very hard to get 3/5 3rd or 4th year courses in year one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewDirection Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 exactly - in a new degree it would be very hard to get 3/5 3rd or 4th year courses in year one. Though it may be possible if you go to a program that doesn't enforce prereqs (ahem...Kin at York). I had 3/5 courses at 3rd year or above my first year there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 Though it may be possible if you go to a program that doesn't enforce prereqs (ahem...Kin at York). I had 3/5 courses at 3rd year or above my first year there. hmm good to know! I would still say an overall pretty rare situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makica24 Posted February 4, 2016 Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 I had contacted them last year and they let me know that what I had (2.5/2000 level, 2.5/3000 level in 1st year) was acceptable. Granted that was for this application cycle, so I'm not certain they will allow it for the next one. It is best to explain your situation and get a response from them in writing. I agree that you shouldn't be banking on medical school with a 2nd degree, but the costs are not just financial, so getting disqualified on the basis of a policy change would be beyond heartbreaking. I had emailed them a lot prior to this for complete clarification on the policy and would have added in an additional 3rd year level course had they not approved my course list. So for those who have yet to apply, I would recommend contacting them frequently in writing to clarify everything before you make any final decisions. Not guaranteed to help, but it's better to have those emails with you for reference. Good luck to you all! JMO, but I find the idea of 2nd degreers taking 1st and 2nd year level courses due to perceived ease to be a false assumption. Of course, they have the data so I could very well be wrong, but I wonder if many of those are actually at that level because simply because they were required by the program. There are also other factors, like an inability to take additional electives of upper-year courses due to the lack of prerequisites there or scheduling around full-time work, both of which could apply to 1st degreers as well but just may be more prominent in a 2nd degreer pool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m30wc0w Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 I don't get it... so if I complete a 2nd undergrad in 2 years, the first and second year of the 2nd undergrad are actually considered 3rd and 4th years? But if I do it in 4 years my 1st and 2nd years will actually be considered as 1st and 2nd years? In the words of R. Kelly, that seems ass-backwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 I don't get it... so if I complete a 2nd undergrad in 2 years, the first and second year of the 2nd undergrad are actually considered 3rd and 4th years? But if I do it in 4 years my 1st and 2nd years will actually be considered as 1st and 2nd years? In the words of R. Kelly, that seems ass-backwards. If I am understanding this then it is actually all 4 years that would be considered senior years. If so I have no idea why you would want to graduate at all. The best way to have years at the senior level is to be in a program with senior level courses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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