Did Western Just Change Their 2Nd Degree Policies?

[Siefer1322]

I could be wrong but it seemed like they have changed/updated some of there FAQ's answers. Here it says now: 
 

What if I already have an undergraduate degree but am working towards or have recently completed a second undergraduate degree?

Applicants who embark on a second undergraduate degree program are eligible to apply only during the final year of their new program. In order to be considered for GPA purposes, the second degree must be equivalent to a four-year degree. In this situation, GPA consideration will be based only on the two best years of the second degree program. Course load and course level requirements for the second degree are analogous to the requirements of the first degree. Applicants who are given a conditional offer must complete all program requirements for the second degree by June 30th.

 

Before, it said that if you complete the degree in 2 years it will need to be 3 of 5 senior level courses. Also, I am not sure now how course level of a second degree be analogous to first when it took me 4 years to complete first and 2 years to complete 2nd degree. 

I tried calling them up but they are still on holiday as of this post. What do people think?

source: https://www.schulich.uwo.ca/medicine/undergraduate/future_students/faq.html

[Siefer1322]

For anyone interested, I just got off the phone and have some bad news.

They changed their policy about the year level for second degree students. If you were completing your degree in 2 years time, It was previously "3 of 5 full year courses must be senior level in each of the two 2 years" (and senior meant year 2 or above according to Western). Now, if you completing your degree in 2 years 3 of 5 full year course have to be 3rd or 4th year level.

They told me they did this because a lot of students had confusion over this rule and they wanted to remove the confusion. In doing so, as a second degree student,  I probably just got disqualified from being considered to Western which was one of my best chances. It is really disheartening since their policy changed halfway through my degree and thus I have emails basically confirming everything is fine with my course load and now in the gray zone. At the same time, I have no idea how I could of avoided this since most of the 1st and 2nd year courses I took were mandatory for the degree. 2 years working my butt off for a 3.9 GPA down the drain. Soul = crushed. 

 

I feel for anyone who is in the same situation.

 

[j17f]

I would make sure that's right by contacting someone else or trying again. I spoke to UWO admins last year and the year before to make sure my second degree would count. They told me that as long as the "1st year" of it included courses at the first or second year level, they would count it since they are what are required for the degree.

[j17f]

The "rules" are "analogous" to the rules for first degrees, which are that each course must be taken at a level equivalent to their year in the program. You aren't considered "fifth" year, when you're in your second degree. I did make sure that Western (the school I go to) considered me a 1st or 2nd year student on my transcript, just in case there was any confusion when I applied to Western. Your first year in your new degree will require you to take the same level courses as your first/second year in your first degree, and this year will count towards Western's best two years (if you score above 3.7).

[indefatigable]

From the internet waybackmachine (2015 - Apr 16) - "In order to be considered for GPA purposes, the second degree must be equivalent to a four-year degree. In this situation, GPA consideration will be based only on the two best years of the second degree program. Applicants who are given a conditional offer must complete all program requirements for the second degree prior to registration in the MD program. Students who complete a second undergraduate degree within one year of full-time studies must register in 5.0 courses or equivalent. In this situation, at least 3.0 of the 5.0 courses must be at the third- or fourth-year level First- and second-year courses that do not require a first-year prerequisite may be included within the 5.0 courses only if absolutely mandatory for the second degree program."

 

It sounds like the language for the second degree has been simplified and that the 3.0 rule may not have applied in your situation (two year second degree).  I would contact them again to clarify your situation.

[Siefer1322]

I sent them a long email as recommended by the person I spoke to on the phone explaining the situation. I will post when I get results and I am considering calling again. Frustrating.

[NewDirection]

Ummm, this is kinda scary, I have to admit.

 

I (like many others) bent over backwards to make sure my second degree would meet Western's requirements and now the policy may have changed mid-application cycle? That is a scary thought and soul-crushing only begins to describe how this feels right now.

 

Although after further thought I am inclined to agree with jfourn in that my second degree, completed in two years, consists of a first and a second year. In that case I am okay. Plus, my transcript doesn't list a year level.

 

I also wrote to the admissions office just now. Hopefully we can compare answers.

[rmorelan]

Ummm, this is kinda scary, I have to admit.

 

I (like many others) bent over backwards to make sure my second degree would meet Western's requirements and now the policy may have changed mid-application cycle? That is a scary thought and soul-crushing only begins to describe how this feels right now.

 

I also wrote to the admissions office just now. Hopefully we can compare answers.

 

thanks for doing that - this is the sort of thing that we all need to know the rules for.

 

I hate mid cycle changes because of stuff like this. Sometimes it has to be done but where possible I think it would be fair to give people a bit of notice so no one is caught in a trap.

[NewDirection]

Has anybody heard back from Western?

 

I haven't yet...

[dolcevi]

Has anybody heard back from Western?

 

For anyone interested, I just got off the phone and have some bad news.

 

They changed their policy about the year level for second degree students. If you were completing your degree in 2 years time, It was previously "3 of 5 full year courses must be senior level in each of the two 2 years" (and senior meant year 2 or above according to Western). Now, if you completing your degree in 2 years 3 of 5 full year course have to be 3rd or 4th year level.

 

They told me they did this because a lot of students had confusion over this rule and they wanted to remove the confusion. In doing so, as a second degree student,  I probably just got disqualified from being considered to Western which was one of my best chances. It is really disheartening since their policy changed halfway through my degree and thus I have emails basically confirming everything is fine with my course load and now in the gray zone. At the same time, I have no idea how I could of avoided this since most of the 1st and 2nd year courses I took were mandatory for the degree. 2 years working my butt off for a 3.9 GPA down the drain. Soul = crushed. 

 

I feel for anyone who is in the same situation.

 

 

 

I haven't yet...

 

Hi how are people competing second undergrad in two years. I have recently graduated from an art undergrad and took few courses through ryerson outside a degree when I found out they can not be used to apply to med school i am thinking of now doing a second undergrad and i keep reading of how student are managing to complete it in two years.  Hope someone can help.

 

THANKS IN ADVANCE !!

[NewDirection]

Well, in my case at least, when I say two years I mean two years full-time plus one 60% course load summer and one full time semester plus one or two courses on the side while working full time. So really more like three years

 

It all depend on how much transfer credit you get from one degree to the next. I had all my gen eds waived, that wiped out almost two years worth of classes.

[j17f]

Yea I did a second 4 year degree in two years due to how many credits transfered. Kinesiology to Nutrition has a lot of cross over classes, and then the bio, chem, orgo, biochem etc transfer too. I even had room for an elective in my last semester of the second degree.

[W0lfgang]

I think everyone affected by this mid-cycle change should write to Western to complain.

[sggh665]

Wow... To change their policy so abruptly without any notice, they must have no idea what second degree-ers have to go through... 2-3 years of life completely wasted for nothing.

[JohnGrisham]

Before you complain, first make sure you talk to someone over the phone who knows their stuff and actually make sure the change - is in fact a change, and not something poorly worded or articulated. 

Then if it is, explain your situation and that of others - and how it negatively effects you. Chances are, if it is a negative change, they may have not realized the consequences etc and will be helpful.

They wouldn't want to suddenly mess up a bunch of people mid-cycle. 

[ralk]

Definitely contact the school to clarify if possible. This sounds like more of a change in language than a change in policy, it's far too early to panic.

 

Wow... To change their policy so abruptly without any notice, they must have no idea what second degree-ers have to go through... 2-3 years of life completely wasted for nothing.

 

I'm not in favour of sudden changes in policy without telegraphing them for future applicants (if this is indeed the case here), but as a second degee'er myself, I have to say, anyone who would view their second degree as time completely wasted were they not to get into medical school is taking the wrong approach to their second degree. We're lucky that some schools allow people to take a second degree at all, and even without rule changes there are never any guarantees in the application process. No second degree'er should be banking on medical school admissions and all second degrees should advance multiple career options, not just medicine.

[rmorelan]

Definitely contact the school to clarify if possible. This sounds like more of a change in language than a change in policy, it's far too early to panic.

 

 

I'm not in favour of sudden changes in policy without telegraphing them for future applicants (if this is indeed the case here), but as a second degee'er myself, I have to say, anyone who would view their second degree as time completely wasted were they not to get into medical school is taking the wrong approach to their second degree. We're lucky that some schools allow people to take a second degree at all, and even without rule changes there are never any guarantees in the application process. No second degree'er should be banking on medical school admissions and all second degrees should advance multiple career options, not just medicine.

 

sure that goes for primary degree holders as well. No one can bank on anything.

 

Still as someone doing a second degree and trying to advance themselves you have to have some faith in the rules being stable or otherwise no one could consider trying for medical school at all - med schools will lose out some good people that way. Same with people who did badly in first year, or had a bad course in a particular year - anyone trying to overcome some disadvantage in their application. All applicants in some fashion had to rely on the rules not changing overnight. A similar rule change could have wiped out the best two year policy for instance at Western.

 

The path is always risky for everyone trying (and risky later on as well). This is a personal opinion of course but I don't think schools except for special circumstance change rules in mid stride. I liked Calgary's approach for instance when they said with over a years notice they were dropping the old MCAT. People knew and adjusted.

 

First we do have to confirm the rule change has taken place I guess Otherwise all of this is theoretical. If it is true then it is going to be hard to do second degrees easily and fit them in. More reason if true to avoid graduating if possible and considering Western I guess until you have two years you are happy about. 

 

Also regardless of whether they should do this Ralk is right - I have seen this sort of thing over and over again - (?) Western now, Queens, Mac, Ottawax2... where rule changes leave particular groups of people people out in the cold as it were mid way though a multi year plan. You have to be aware that there are risks.

[dolcevi]

Yea I did a second 4 year degree in two years due to how many credits transfered. Kinesiology to Nutrition has a lot of cross over classes, and then the bio, chem, orgo, biochem etc transfer too. I even had room for an elective in my last semester of the second degree.

 

 

Well, in my case at least, when I say two years I mean two years full-time plus one 60% course load summer and one full time semester plus one or two courses on the side while working full time. So really more like three years

 

It all depend on how much transfer credit you get from one degree to the next. I had all my gen eds waived, that wiped out almost two years worth of classes.

 

 

Hey thanks for replying guys. So if you go into a second degree wouldn't med schools look at the transferred credits as a pass/fail or look badly towards it because it would make some semesters not full time as required but some med schools. Im trying to understand would it affect the requirements set out by med schools.

 

Also what would anyone suggest as a good second undergrad for someone who studied law in their first undergrad?  in Ontario?

 

Sorry I know i went off topic here:)

[NewDirection]

I spoke to the admissions office and strongly recommend that anyone who feels that they are affected by the apparent change call the office and speak to them directly to explain your situation.

 

It seems like it's not that bad after all.

 

I would echo the comments of many above. These institutions are run by reasonable and well intentioned people. Best to get the facts before getting too worked up (says the guy who almost threw up when he first read the new wording )

[Siefer1322]

NewDirection,it would be nice if  you tell us what they told you because I do not feel that anything I said is wrong. They have not emailed me back yet.

[NewDirection]

I would suggest calling them again and seeing what they say.

[Siefer1322]

For those interested that are still a bit confused, here is the clarification as I have been following up and speaking with the office for last couple weeks. The rules did change. If your were mid cycle and were going according to the previous "senior year or above" rules, then you have 2016-2017 to apply and be eligible, after that you will also have to follow the new rules which basically means for anyone who already completed 2nd degree or finishing it, you are out of luck and can no longer apply to Western.

 

[t0ny]

I'm still confused on how this works.  How does Western base what 2nd, 3rd or 4th year courses are at each specific school? Does it go simply by course code? For instance,  a course starting with "2" will be deemed a 2nd year course, a course starting with "3" will be deemed a 3rd year course?

 

If so, how would this make sense exactly for students doing a second degree? All but one course I took in my first year was a core class, yet I don't have 6 or my 10 classes starting with a "3xx" course code, even though many of those classes were taken by 3rd or 4th year students.

 

I am not exactly understanding this rule, as it seems they expect second degree students to "bypass" all of the 200 level courses somehow?

[rmorelan]

I'm still confused on how this works.  How does Western base what 2nd, 3rd or 4th year courses are at each specific school? Does it go simply by course code? For instance,  a course starting with "2" will be deemed a 2nd year course, a course starting with "3" will be deemed a 3rd year course?

 

If so, how would this make sense exactly for students doing a second degree? All but one course I took in my first year was a core class, yet I don't have 6 or my 10 classes starting with a "3xx" course code, even though many of those classes were taken by 3rd or 4th year students.

 

I am not exactly understanding this rule, as it seems they expect second degree students to "bypass" all of the 200 level courses somehow?

 

they are using course codes - same way they always have it seems.

 

I don't think it sounds like they want people to bypass the lower courses - it is more that this prevents you from rapidly completing the 4 year degree - you will have years that won't count - you will have to as there will be new first/second year courses any degree requires you have to build on and very likely those will count for more than 2/5 courses for the first two years - unless you are doing some very skilled and creative course selection (putting them in a summer, finding a bunch of 3/4 year courses that don't have prereqs or have them but you took the prereqs in the first degree yet they can still count for the current degree....

 

The challenge is somehow doing a new degree in only a couple of years with this. You probably could still do it reasonably well in 3 years with using one year for max first/second year courses - include a summer to get 5 more, and then use the other two years for the ones Western will count using the 2/5 left over courses to squeeze things in when needed. That is however a messy way to do things - and tricky to setup when course schedules may change. 

 

Sounds like it would be better if at all possible to not graduate from the first degree and somehow fit in 3/5 courses at the 3rd/4th year level in that degree - maybe by doing a new second major/minor and picking up other left over courses you haven't done from the first degree. That way you might still have a year above the cut off already from your prior work that you can use, and already be in position to take senior courses(?)

[indefatigable]

From a practical point of view, I think a lot of second degrees are really now unfeasible - it seems like a huge shift in policy too - before it looked like they accepted one year second degrees (not sure how that worked!).  But I guess there's not stipulation that all the years have to be full time (except the ones that count), so could maybe just extend the degree to avoid the appearance of having a senior year without the right course level.  

I guess that would be a way to overcome the barrier (and increase gpa taking 1xx level courses in first year), but still would take its toll in years..

    I'm not even sure how many degrees in Quebec would count for instance, where it is by default a 3 year degree (honours or not) - with usually a strong mix of 2xx in years 1 and 2.