St James Medical School

[medwannabee]

So, I got accepted to St James, which is in the Caribbean and I'm trying to decide what to do.

My stats aren't the best, but aren't the worst either, and I have quite the upward trend.

But I am getting tired of the grind and am pretty desperate for the next step.

Basically my options are to go to St James and give it a shot, or stick it out here and re-write the MCAT and take all the prerequisites for the states ... And from there see what happens... Both are a gamble.

Any advice would be appreciated!

[Fresh fry]

Please don't double post, I took down the other one. 

 

hard choice, best of luck

[ralk]

So, I got accepted to St James, which is in the Caribbean and I'm trying to decide what to do.

My stats aren't the best, but aren't the worst either, and I have quite the upward trend.

But I am getting tired of the grind and am pretty desperate for the next step.

Basically my options are to go to St James and give it a shot, or stick it out here and re-write the MCAT and take all the prerequisites for the states ... And from there see what happens... Both are a gamble.

Any advice would be appreciated!

 

Caribbean is a tough route regardless and St James is an awfully new school, one that doesn't have the connections or track record of the more established Caribbean schools. Your options for residency would be very restricted, mostly Family Medicine in noncompetitive locations. Even getting those positions would be far from certain - strong performance on the USMLEs would be a must for US applications and since USMLE scores correlate well with MCAT results, that's easier said than done to achieve for someone in your situation.

 

I would strongly advise against accepting the offer to St James. Even for a risk-tolerant person willing to try their hand at the CSA pathway, St James is far from an ideal school to attend. It would be much safer to improve your application for Canadian, USMD, and/or USDO schools. If you've got money to spare and can accept the risks of going abroad to study medicine - something I still advise against but to each their own - there are better options than St James. For Caribbean schools, try to stick to the Big 4: Ross, SABA, St George, and the American University of the Caribbean. Like St James, their main goal is making money and not your education, but they at least deliver on their end of the deal with a bit more consistency.

[JohnGrisham]

IF you're going to go to the carribean, at least give yourself the benefit of going to one of the big 4 with actual proven track records. Although I would still be hesitant to go to them, they have at least proven their ability to get students into residencies in the US. And dont have problems with licensure (see California and NY) that many non big-4 schools have.

[indefatigable]

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[_ _]

If you're considering pay that much money, why not try some US schools? I've know many people (here in ON) go to the US after not getting accepted here, and the US regular medical degree isn't considered international. So it's a huge sum of money to go, but probably not much more than the Caribbean, and a year is probably worth removing the very real risk of spending >200K on a degree, then not matching into a residency, or ending up in a specialty you don't like for 40 years because you couldn't be choosy

[indefatigable]

OP mentioned needing to rewrite mcat and take pre-reqs.  Mcat seems pretty core to a good us application.

[Fresh fry]

Is it true that some of the Caribbean schools advertise at university/college campuses in Ontario? 

[Arztin]

Is it true that some of the Caribbean schools advertise at university/college campuses in Ontario? 

SGU ads are all over the place in Toroton subway stations, don't know about ON universities though.

They come all the time in Quebec universities, at least McGill and Universite de Montreal

[JohnGrisham]

UMHS looks ok - not sure about california licensure, but does have a small record of matching to Canada and it is only 3 years (so big cost savings).

The track record of matching to Canada in my opinion of any of the carrib schools or foreign schools IMO isn't very important- as an IMG matching in CaRMS...it's more about the individual and a lot of luck and a crapshoot through and through. Of course i cant say for sure, but based on the small amount of residencies and such - im hesitant to think PDs know much difference outside of the schools they have heard about. Maybe they do, who knows..

 

But for US residencies, where you go definitely matters. Outside the big 4 and things start to drop down, unless you have more and more things to compensate etc.

[JohnGrisham]

Is it true that some of the Caribbean schools advertise at university/college campuses in Ontario? 

They come to BC alot too. They know BC and Ontario have big populations of aspiring medical students, and the means to attend.

[Fresh fry]

I've always wondered where people find out about the carb from. Same for Ireland and Aussie. Don't want to open a can of worms here but that actually feels kind of wrong to me, like tobacco advertising in a way. Sure for some people it is a viable path but for others it a very expensive trap. Seem predatory almost.

[indefatigable]

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[_ _]

Is it true that some of the Caribbean schools advertise at university/college campuses in Ontario? 

Yep....they're the ONLY medical schools at my universities organized career/education fairs. It makes me cringe, because they sell it as a total positive and students fall for it every year-especially first/second years

[uoit101]

I wouldn't do it.

It's unaccredited in about ~15 states. The big red flag is that it's not NY and Cali accredited. 7-8 other states follow the Cali model. NY is by far the most "IMG-friendly" state. Ideally, you wanna go to a Caribbean school that's accredited by both of these two governing bodies i.e. the big 4 or rather the big 5 (if you include AUA) schools.

[medwannabee]

Thank you everyone for your input, there is definitely a lot to think about and consider. 

Yes, there is a lot of advertisement in Toronto and in the universities about the Caribbean medical schools, all of which make them sound great and like you won't have any issues down the line.
When I had my interview with St James I did ask about residencies and matching, although I would take this with a grain of salt, the interviewer told me that last year they had a student match to surgery NY. However, this is coming from a board member so take it as you will. 
My main concern of course in getting a good residency placement afterwards, especially if I want to pursue a more competitive field, I don't want to be at a disadvantage. I did however email the PD at Mass Gen and told her I was considering St James, that it was in the Caribbean and she told me that they look at the whole package. ie. USMLE scores are the first thing they looks at, they also look at letters of recommendation, schools and whether you do a sub-I ... so its not impossible, but I don't want to rely on maybe being the exception to the rule.

[JohnGrisham]

They (umhs) give a list of where their graduates match - definitely some name brand places: emory, hopkins, chicago - sure those are the exceptions, but don't know the big 4 do much better...  So - hard to tell - might be ok.

The common trap is having a brand name place- but a very poor site that most AMGs wouldnt touch etc. 

 

US residencies are not as standardized as Canada. Canada all residencies are tired to university programs(or at least all?) and yes there are sites, but all-in all they are still good programs.

 

In the US, not all residencies are university affiliated, but can be hospital affiliated(sometimes with a weak "on paper" university affiliation) and are used to have warm bodies to keep production flowing etc.

 

The big 4 have volume and more reputable with what they post(as they have more scrutiny.

 

I dont know much about UMHS but i know for a fact other(not saying UMHS) smaller carrib schools have been shown to actually lie about their match list as posted. If they say "matched 1 FM resident to ON" for example, its going to be pretty hard-pressed to actually figure out if that's true.

 

A long time poster on SDN actually looked into this a few matches ago(they are involved with the ministry of health in Ontario), and found that some of the smaller, less reputable schools were in fact making up their supposed Canadian matches.

[JohnGrisham]

Thank you everyone for your input, there is definitely a lot to think about and consider. 

Yes, there is a lot of advertisement in Toronto and in the universities about the Caribbean medical schools, all of which make them sound great and like you won't have any issues down the line.

When I had my interview with St James I did ask about residencies and matching, although I would take this with a grain of salt, the interviewer told me that last year they had a student match to surgery NY. However, this is coming from a board member so take it as you will. 

My main concern of course in getting a good residency placement afterwards, especially if I want to pursue a more competitive field, I don't want to be at a disadvantage. I did however email the PD at Mass Gen and told her I was considering St James, that it was in the Caribbean and she told me that they look at the whole package. ie. USMLE scores are the first thing they looks at, they also look at letters of recommendation, schools and whether you do a sub-I ... so its not impossible, but I don't want to rely on maybe being the exception to the rule.

Anything they say is all marketing - find out the facts for yourself.

 

Are you interested in surgery? If so, you better work harder and apply to US schools if you want a much less riskier time.

 

The facts are that if your an IMG, your chances skyrocket downwards really quickly for competitive specialties- AND You are a non-US Citizen(I'm assuming) hence you need a visa. Which drops it down even more.

[JohnGrisham]

Looking at some of the residents blog posts from these schools is interesting. Formulaic almost - "I matched into my 1st choice at (insert undesirable residency location and hospital here) in Family medicine". 

Definitely blinders - but at least they matched and will get the training they need and become Drs. Im sure many of their classmates who didn't match would do anything for that spot.

[JohnGrisham]

I wouldn't do it.

It's unaccredited in about ~15 states. The big red flag is that it's not NY and Cali accredited. 7-8 other states follow the Cali model. NY is by far the most "IMG-friendly" state. Ideally, you wanna go to a Caribbean school that's accredited by both of these two governing bodies i.e. the big 4 or rather the big 5 (if you include AUA) schools.

If this is the case of St. James - then definitely do not go.

 

If its not Cali or NY state approved - it should be useless to you. 

[_ _]

Thank you everyone for your input, there is definitely a lot to think about and consider. 

Yes, there is a lot of advertisement in Toronto and in the universities about the Caribbean medical schools, all of which make them sound great and like you won't have any issues down the line.

When I had my interview with St James I did ask about residencies and matching, although I would take this with a grain of salt, the interviewer told me that last year they had a student match to surgery NY. However, this is coming from a board member so take it as you will. 

My main concern of course in getting a good residency placement afterwards, especially if I want to pursue a more competitive field, I don't want to be at a disadvantage. I did however email the PD at Mass Gen and told her I was considering St James, that it was in the Caribbean and she told me that they look at the whole package. ie. USMLE scores are the first thing they looks at, they also look at letters of recommendation, schools and whether you do a sub-I ... so its not impossible, but I don't want to rely on maybe being the exception to the rule.

And for all you know, that person could have been the son/daughter of the director of that surgical program. 

Also, you aren't American (I'm assuming). That changes everything-it's more costly/difficult for a US residency program to take you over a US citizen, so you're chances decrease even further

[ralk]

I've always wondered where people find out about the carb from. Same for Ireland and Aussie. Don't want to open a can of worms here but that actually feels kind of wrong to me, like tobacco advertising in a way. Sure for some people it is a viable path but for others it a very expensive trap. Seem predatory almost.

 

It's absolutely predatory. People are desperate to become a doctor and these schools prey on that desperation. I wouldn't quite call it tobacco advertising, no one should be getting cancer from what they sell, more like a unscrupulous used car salesman - at the end of the day you still get a car (an MD), but it could easily be a lemon that won't take you anywhere (no residency at the end).

[ralk]

Thank you everyone for your input, there is definitely a lot to think about and consider. 

Yes, there is a lot of advertisement in Toronto and in the universities about the Caribbean medical schools, all of which make them sound great and like you won't have any issues down the line.

When I had my interview with St James I did ask about residencies and matching, although I would take this with a grain of salt, the interviewer told me that last year they had a student match to surgery NY. However, this is coming from a board member so take it as you will. 

My main concern of course in getting a good residency placement afterwards, especially if I want to pursue a more competitive field, I don't want to be at a disadvantage. I did however email the PD at Mass Gen and told her I was considering St James, that it was in the Caribbean and she told me that they look at the whole package. ie. USMLE scores are the first thing they looks at, they also look at letters of recommendation, schools and whether you do a sub-I ... so its not impossible, but I don't want to rely on maybe being the exception to the rule.

 

Like most Carib schools, St James puts out a list of where its grads have matched, so it's easy to fact-check their claims a bit. That surgery student in NY? Graduated 5 years before they matched, went to a rather poorly-regarded NY hospital, and it looks like they did only an Intern year in surgery before ending up in Preventative Medicine in Texas (that could easily have been by choice, mind you). Most seem to end up in Family Medicine or Internal Medicine in locations/programs that are rather noncompetitive and filled mostly by other Carib grads - that is, the programs US grads don't want.

 

If you're worried about getting a good residency after graduating, going to St James would put you at a substantial disadvantage. Period. That's not even a statistical argument where the average person is at a disadvantage but some people rise above - their success stories are matching to noncompetitive programs, often years after graduation. If you were to get a good residency placement in a competitive field after attending St James, you wouldn't just be an exception to the rule, you'd be writing new rules - not entirely impossible perhaps, but about as close to impossible as you can get.

[indefatigable]

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[Slashsev]

go USDO, im at the end of the trail..and all i hear is more and more and more IMG horror stories

 

theres success too....but lots of failure...this is life not a casino...i think a safe bet like DO would go a long way.