Medical School Academic Consulting Companies

[rmorelan]

No problem always happy to enlighten. As a UT meds alum think it's somewhere between shameful and hilarious.

 

You bet your butt it's lazy. If you use these services you probably just hired some pre-clerk chump in med school (who thinks they know the system) and who basically reads you this forum or if you are lucky some resident who is looking to read you this forum in return for a quick buck.

 

Money well spent? I guess that's a matter of how unmotivated you are to pick up the reigns yourself. That same 10% plan on hiring someone for CaRMS too?

 

ha, I will add that you have to add a zero if you want to do the same thing to the carms/fellowship services.

[rogerroger]

ha, I will add that you have to add a zero if you want to do the same thing to the carms/fellowship services.

 

Agreed. R&R consultants sound good!?

 

Skimming off that 10% of a supersized CaRMS wary meds class should help keep us and our dependents fed. (I'm joking pm101...)   

[Kevyn]

No problem always happy to enlighten. As a UT meds alum I think it's somewhere between shameful and hilarious.

 

You bet your butt it's lazy. If you use these services you probably just hired some pre-clerk chump in med school (who thinks they know the system) and who basically reads you this forum or if you are lucky some resident who is looking to read you this forum in return for a quick buck.

 

Money well spent? I guess that's a matter of how unmotivated you are to pick up the reigns yourself.  That same 10% plan on hiring someone for CaRMS too?

 

As someone who has been on here since even before the days when Ian's forums were ridiculed by another now defunct premed forum, I find it disturbing to see his moderators (who are residents and even perhaps attending staff) engage in petty behavior that ridicules and makes fun of premeds.   Calling a group of people lazy and unmotivated is highly presumptive and disrespectful.  There is a lot of hostility directed towards the test prep industry on these forums with many trying to discredit a well validated industry.   Even the most recent admissions tool, a situational judgment test (SJT) called CASPer has literature showing that individuals can fake their responses on SJTs.  According to Whetzel and McDaniel (2009), faking on a selection measure refers to deliberate distortion of responses by individuals in order to score favorably. There has been debate as to whether people can fake on selection measures, and what impact it has.  Whetzel and McDaniel (2009) stated that the research on faking clearly shows that people can fake on SJTs. Faking therefore, can be considered to be one of the documented weaknesses of using SJTs to predict performance.  Nguyen et al. found that SJTs presented under a behavioral tendency response format (ie. CASPer™) could be faked, with effect sizes ranging between .15 and .34 (15%-34%).  The current literature review also shows that individuals do benefit from test preparation (even for SJTs). One study by Cullen, Sackett and Lievens (2006) examined the coachability of SJTs for consideration as selection instruments in high-stakes testing. Cullen et al. concluded that performance on some SJTs could be enhanced by coaching. 

 

I've worked with pioneers who have brought objective measures to the admissions process (ie. MMI, CASPer and in the US) in medical education and I can assure you that they are all aware of inherent weaknesses in these tools.  However, they will tell you the opposite to strengthen the validity of their screening tools.  For example. the following statement can be found on the official takecasper.com website, "The general literature suggests that situational judgment tests (SJTs) are relatively immune to test preparation, i.e. that coaching is unlikely to provide benefit".  No tool is perfect.  I've been exploiting these weaknesses in order to maximize my students chances and the results are that they get admitted into the programs they seek.     

 

I've also been on these forums for over a decade to know that there's a lot of information that you just won't find on a public forum.  While these forums contain a lot of helpful information, there is also a lot of misinformation that is far more likely to damage an applicant's chances of receiving an admission if followed.  The bottom line, if you can get in without paying for help, then give yourself a pat on the back, but please don't discredit or put down others that seek different paths to gaining admission.

[Kevyn]

 

See this for more details https://meds.queensu.ca/blog/undergraduate/?p=2667 

 

Interesting read, but again the postings in the comments section seem to come back to the same central issue around test prep, which is the fact that it does not benefit everyone because not every one can afford to pay the fees associated with these programs.  

[_ _]

Interesting read, but again the postings in the comments section seem to come back to the same central issue around test prep, which is the fact that it does not benefit everyone because not every one can afford to pay the fees associated with these programs.  

Exactly. That's my issue. What we need is more SES diversity in medicine-not less

[Kevyn]

 

Had more than one of them try to recruit me actually - that is actually tempting because I like helping people figure all this out, and well who doesn't like money. It is why I give lectures on the topic at Universities.  Still most also have a max the possible revenue approach to things which I could never agree with (when I was in business my approach was to always max the gain to the client for a fair price. That in the long run actually makes the most money for everyone and it is more satisfying).

 

That is really unfortunate to see, but because test prep is an unregulated industry, it really is up to the buyer to do their research.  I'm glad you did not allow them to recruit you.

 

As someone who has been doing this for many years, it's also a problem on the other inside.  We recently had to let go of 15+ staff for breaching our policies.

[amichel]

That is really unfortunate to see, but because test prep is an unregulated industry, it really is up to the buyer to do their research. I'm glad you did not allow them to recruit you.

 

As someone who has been doing this for many years, it's also a problem on the other inside. We recently had to let go of 15+ staff for breaching our policies.

Oh? You work for one of them. Well, sorry, but that seriously discredits your above post.

[JohnGrisham]

Oh? You work for one of them. Well, sorry, but that seriously discredits your above post.

In fairness, they didn't hide that fact in their OP above.

[amichel]

As someone who has been on here since even before the days when Ian's forums were ridiculed by another now defunct premed forum, I find it disturbing to see his moderators (who are residents and even perhaps attending staff) engage in petty behavior that ridicules and makes fun of premeds. Calling a group of people lazy and unmotivated is highly presumptive and disrespectful. There is a lot of hostility directed towards the test prep industry on these forums with many trying to discredit a well validated industry. Even the most recent admissions tool, a situational judgment test (SJT) called CASPer has literature showing that individuals can fake their responses on SJTs. According to Whetzel and McDaniel (2009), faking on a selection measure refers to deliberate distortion of responses by individuals in order to score favorably. There has been debate as to whether people can fake on selection measures, and what impact it has. Whetzel and McDaniel (2009) stated that the research on faking clearly shows that people can fake on SJTs. Faking therefore, can be considered to be one of the documented weaknesses of using SJTs to predict performance. Nguyen et al. found that SJTs presented under a behavioral tendency response format (ie. CASPer™) could be faked, with effect sizes ranging between .15 and .34 (15%-34%). The current literature review also shows that individuals do benefit from test preparation (even for SJTs). One study by Cullen, Sackett and Lievens (2006) examined the coachability of SJTs for consideration as selection instruments in high-stakes testing. Cullen et al. concluded that performance on some SJTs could be enhanced by coaching.

 

I've worked with pioneers who have brought objective measures to the admissions process (ie. MMI, CASPer and in the US) in medical education and I can assure you that they are all aware of inherent weaknesses in these tools. However, they will tell you the opposite to strengthen the validity of their screening tools. For example. the following statement can be found on the official takecasper.com website, "The general literature suggests that situational judgment tests (SJTs) are relatively immune to test preparation, i.e. that coaching is unlikely to provide benefit". No tool is perfect. I've been exploiting these weaknesses in order to maximize my students chances and the results are that they get admitted into the programs they seek.

 

I've also been on these forums for over a decade to know that there's a lot of information that you just won't find on a public forum. While these forums contain a lot of helpful information, there is also a lot of misinformation that is far more likely to damage an applicant's chances of receiving an admission if followed. The bottom line, if you can get in without paying for help, then give yourself a pat on the back, but please don't discredit or put down others that seek different paths to gaining admission.

You make a post about how these tests are "fakeable" and you "exploit the weaknesses" and then expect us to not be judgemental? I think it's pretty reasonable to not want people to get in by faking and exploiting weaknesses.

[amichel]

In fairness, they didn't hide that fact in their OP above.

I guess not. But they didn't make it very clear. I read "my students" thinking they were someone who work with students in a different setting and just helps them out. That's my problem though.

[rogerroger]

As someone who has been on here since even before the days when Ian's forums were ridiculed by another now defunct premed forum, I find it disturbing to see his moderators (who are residents and even perhaps attending staff) engage in petty behavior that ridicules and makes fun of premeds. Calling a group of people lazy and unmotivated is highly presumptive and disrespectful. There is a lot of hostility directed towards the test prep industry on these forums with many trying to discredit a well validated industry. Even the most recent admissions tool, a situational judgment test (SJT) called CASPer has literature showing that individuals can fake their responses on SJTs. According to Whetzel and McDaniel (2009), faking on a selection measure refers to deliberate distortion of responses by individuals in order to score favorably. There has been debate as to whether people can fake on selection measures, and what impact it has. Whetzel and McDaniel (2009) stated that the research on faking clearly shows that people can fake on SJTs. Faking therefore, can be considered to be one of the documented weaknesses of using SJTs to predict performance. Nguyen et al. found that SJTs presented under a behavioral tendency response format (ie. CASPer™) could be faked, with effect sizes ranging between .15 and .34 (15%-34%). The current literature review also shows that individuals do benefit from test preparation (even for SJTs). One study by Cullen, Sackett and Lievens (2006) examined the coachability of SJTs for consideration as selection instruments in high-stakes testing. Cullen et al. concluded that performance on some SJTs could be enhanced by coaching.

 

I've worked with pioneers who have brought objective measures to the admissions process (ie. MMI, CASPer and in the US) in medical education and I can assure you that they are all aware of inherent weaknesses in these tools. However, they will tell you the opposite to strengthen the validity of their screening tools. For example. the following statement can be found on the official takecasper.com website, "The general literature suggests that situational judgment tests (SJTs) are relatively immune to test preparation, i.e. that coaching is unlikely to provide benefit". No tool is perfect. I've been exploiting these weaknesses in order to maximize my students chances and the results are that they get admitted into the programs they seek.

 

I've also been on these forums for over a decade to know that there's a lot of information that you just won't find on a public forum. While these forums contain a lot of helpful information, there is also a lot of misinformation that is far more likely to damage an applicant's chances of receiving an admission if followed. The bottom line, if you can get in without paying for help, then give yourself a pat on the back, but please don't discredit or put down others that seek different paths to gaining admission.

 

Interesting how you call my prior message petty while you simutanously advocate for commercialized deception. With you being here a decade it should not surprise you that the reception for what you peddle is not going to be warm. 

 

Here is my chief point: Should you fork out the money asked by prep companies for application coaching? Absolutely not. Doing so is bad value at best. Does using these services reap a proven benefit above other resources? Subjectively no and statistically there is no support for prep company superiority - unless the data saying so comes from a test prep company, which is cute, but don't show me such "studies" as it wastes my time and proves points I will make later on regarding your institutionalized deception. Now this highlighted point was the original crux of my posts which appears lost in your response. Perhaps this is my failing? Was my original point obscured by my poignant tongue-in-cheek skepticism of the prep companies and their clients? If my doubt around this industry is poorly expressed and received, then I do apologize, I mean no offense. My point here is to highlight the predatory nature of many of these companies and to emphasize the better options which exist, full stop.

 

Like you, I am another long standing user of these forums. I've been around for over a decade myself, first signing up during the first version of this forum (I can't believe I can say that now...). I have seen endless advertisements posted here by prep companies with big offers that are not backed up by any evidence based in reality, heck even the credentials of who is offering the "prep" is often sketchy at best. I have also worked for an MCAT test prep company in the past, and the view from the inside was not pretty. Many prep companies are old hat. For those who are not critical of these companies, I strongly urge you to take a closer look at what you are purchasing. This said, I think most are smart and already do this.

 

You post an article stating that general preparation and coaching on an application helps. Of course it does, it is one of the reasons PM101 is so great! But do we need a study to tell us this? Coaching, aka preparing should make you better, should it not? But you argue this assistance can or should come from a commercial prep company? I'm sorry, but this dog won't hunt. Citing a paper stating coaching helps one prepare does not equate to proof of your services or any other paid service providing a benefit. Far from it actually. Has this line actually worked for you in the past or are you going impromptu here? Pack up your journal articles, you will not snow me with them.

 

Also, you mention that you can "fake it" on one of our best judgment tests the CASPer. It's not really clear what you are trying to advance here. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but it is really hard based on what you write. So is this what you and similar prep companies are peddling - deception and faking interviews? I frequently read around psychometrics, and nothing you cited is remarkable or makes your services credible, plus I already know that prep companies are merchants of deception. Your (intended?) transparency on this issue may be helpful for those less familiar, so for that I thank you.

 

Either way, my point remains, if you want to "crack" these assessment systems or rather "prepare for them", you can find tons of advice readily available outside of formalized prep companies. This forum contains many such resources, the good and bad, but all free, isn't that nice?

 

If a pre-med does not seek out these readily available and often free resources in this day and age, I raise my eyebrows. It's almost like showing up to your important job interview uninformed and dressed in a t-shirt and jeans, this is arguably a pretty poor decision. There are a ton of resources available, and freely available. Every university careers office, premed club, or contact on this forum represents discounted or free prep, often altruistically given. There is no excuse not to explore these options.

 

If after reviewing the easily accessible material the pre-med feels compelled to purchase services from a prep company then they may have been sold the "idea of an advantage." This "idea" is something which is not supported as the commercial programs offered are not proven to be superior to other types of prep. If the consumer does not realize this, they either have not done their primary research or have been deceived by clever marketing. Maybe quoting a bunch of semi-relevant papers about "faking it" seems attractive to the desperate? This leads me back to the matter of poor decision-making and dubious ethics... None of this is good. You incorrectly state that using a prep company should be regarded as an equal "path" towards admission. That would be convenient wouldn't it? In fact going the commercial prep path is a rubbish route, unproven at best and harmful at worse, both to the pocketbook and overall performance/outcome.

 

Ultimately this argument is not one grounded in psychometrics as you try to contort it into. "Faking it," coaching towards success, whatever you want to call it, it's all semantics. My argument is focused solely on the dark underbelly of the often sketchy premed industry. A portion of an industry which you apparently represent. An industry for which I am deeply skeptical. Such companies have inundated these forums with questionable advertisements at best for a long time, at least since the original forum days. Do you recall this from the past 10 years? It is a constant problem for the moderators. This is a problem which I've personally addressed for years with the delete button in agreement with the pm101 rules.

 

This is my opinion, and it is a strong one, and based soundly upon on both experience and my understanding of medical education and admissions theory. If you have used freely available material existent on this topic and still spent money, I hope you liked the product and felt it money well spent. Yet despite this chances are it made no difference in the outcome of admissions. This is especially true if one actually did any prep work independently with the readily available resources mentioned here.

 

Let the following be clear. You can absolutely count on me discrediting anything from the premed industry that is peddled here with false or questionable pretenses at the expense of pre-meds. I feel a responsibility to do so. I will point out the irony, and I will not gloss over the suspect practices of these companies who thrive on the anxiety and occasional naivety of pre-meds.

 

For interest sake, here is one of the key papers cited by Kevyn for those interested in reading what they are quoting:

Cullen, MJ, Sackett, PR, Lievens, F. Threats to the Operational Use of Situational Judgment Tests in the College Admission Process. International Journal of Selection and Assessment Int J Selection & Assessment. 2006;14(2):142–155.

 

One of the authors was kind enough to share freely a pdf copy: http://users.ugent.be/~flievens/coaching.pdf

[ralk]

As someone who has been on here since even before the days when Ian's forums were ridiculed by another now defunct premed forum, I find it disturbing to see his moderators (who are residents and even perhaps attending staff) engage in petty behavior that ridicules and makes fun of premeds.   Calling a group of people lazy and unmotivated is highly presumptive and disrespectful.  There is a lot of hostility directed towards the test prep industry on these forums with many trying to discredit a well validated industry.   Even the most recent admissions tool, a situational judgment test (SJT) called CASPer has literature showing that individuals can fake their responses on SJTs.  According to Whetzel and McDaniel (2009), faking on a selection measure refers to deliberate distortion of responses by individuals in order to score favorably. There has been debate as to whether people can fake on selection measures, and what impact it has.  Whetzel and McDaniel (2009) stated that the research on faking clearly shows that people can fake on SJTs. Faking therefore, can be considered to be one of the documented weaknesses of using SJTs to predict performance.  Nguyen et al. found that SJTs presented under a behavioral tendency response format (ie. CASPer™) could be faked, with effect sizes ranging between .15 and .34 (15%-34%).  The current literature review also shows that individuals do benefit from test preparation (even for SJTs). One study by Cullen, Sackett and Lievens (2006) examined the coachability of SJTs for consideration as selection instruments in high-stakes testing. Cullen et al. concluded that performance on some SJTs could be enhanced by coaching. 

 

I've worked with pioneers who have brought objective measures to the admissions process (ie. MMI, CASPer and in the US) in medical education and I can assure you that they are all aware of inherent weaknesses in these tools.  However, they will tell you the opposite to strengthen the validity of their screening tools.  For example. the following statement can be found on the official takecasper.com website, "The general literature suggests that situational judgment tests (SJTs) are relatively immune to test preparation, i.e. that coaching is unlikely to provide benefit".  No tool is perfect.  I've been exploiting these weaknesses in order to maximize my students chances and the results are that they get admitted into the programs they seek.     

 

I've also been on these forums for over a decade to know that there's a lot of information that you just won't find on a public forum.  While these forums contain a lot of helpful information, there is also a lot of misinformation that is far more likely to damage an applicant's chances of receiving an admission if followed.  The bottom line, if you can get in without paying for help, then give yourself a pat on the back, but please don't discredit or put down others that seek different paths to gaining admission.

 

If true, you could rectify that right now by providing that information. What gets said that's wrong? What's missing? Share with us your great insights, oh knowledgeable one.

[Kevyn]

 

Interesting how you call my prior message petty while you simutanously advocate for commercialized deception. With you being here a decade it should not surprise you that the reception for what you peddle is not going to be warm. 

 

I frequently see test prep companies advertise that they offer a money back guarantee if applicants are unsuccessful.  However, when you read the fine print, it’s clear that the student is going to be hard pressed to get their money back.  This is what I consider to be commercialized deception.  I don’t see how my post would lead you to think I support this kind of practice? I’ve posted previously that test prep is an unregulated industry and it is up to the buyer to do their research before paying anything.  I don’t disagree that many test prep companies are predatory in nature and again it comes back to my previous point that the buyer has to know what they’re getting themselves into.  However, just because there are some bad apples in a bunch, doesn’t mean that the whole batch should be labelled as rotten which is the impression you are painting of the entire industry.   You’re entitled to your opinion but just because I’m an advocate for test prep, does not makes me an advocate for commercialized deception.  I believe in the free market so if a company is practicing commercialized deception then it’s only a matter of time before they will be brought down.

 

 

You post an article stating that general preparation and coaching on an application helps. Of course it does, it is one of the reasons PM101 is so great! But do we need a study to tell us this? Coaching, aka preparing should make you better, should it not? But you argue this assistance can or should come from a commercial prep company? I'm sorry, but this dog won't hunt. Citing a paper stating coaching helps one prepare does not equate to proof of your services or any other paid service providing a benefit. Far from it actually. Has this line actually worked for you in the past or are you going impromptu here? Pack up your journal articles, you will not snow me with them.

 

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read on here, that coaching does not help.  I’m glad we both agree that there’s a benefit to coaching.  My point for mentioning those studies is that coaching DOES help and to be critical of any information you read, even if it comes from the people that administer the test, telling you that coaching is not likely to be beneficial.  It is meant to raise awareness.  It is not meant as proof that applicants need to get coaching from a test prep company.  If they have the proper resources and support network to suffice then they should be all set.

 

 

If after reviewing the easily accessible material the pre-med feels compelled to purchase services from a prep company then they may have been sold the "idea of an advantage." This "idea" is something which is not supported as the commercial programs offered are not proven to be superior to other types of prep. If the consumer does not realize this, they either have not done their primary research or have been deceived by clever marketing. Maybe quoting a bunch of semi-relevant papers about "faking it" seems attractive to the desperate? This leads me back to the matter of poor decision-making and dubious ethics... None of this is good. You incorrectly state that using a prep company should be regarded as an equal "path" towards admission. That would be convenient wouldn't it? In fact going the commercial prep path is a rubbish route, unproven at best and harmful at worse, both to the pocketbook and overall performance/outcome.

 

I never said that test prep is an equal path towards admission.  Applicants should not be paying if it was simply an equal path towards admission.  My exact words were it is a different path to admission.  It is one of the reasons premeds are against consultants, because there are some consultants that do provide an advantage but they are expensive and not available to those without the financial means.   Regarding your comment about there not being any literature evidence to document an advantage to test prep over other types of prep, I’m assuming by “other types of prep”, you’re referring to free prep.  I’m sure you can appreciate that such a randomized trial would be impossible to achieve.  However, just because we don’t have an answer, doesn’t mean that there doesn’t exist a benefit.  It’s the same reasons clinicians continue to practice non-EBM based medicine.  Why because we simply don’t know.  Mac almost drove me crazy with all their EBM.  I’ve worked with the father of EBM Gordon Guyatt and not everything can be made evidenced based.  I’m sure you do not make all decisions in your life based on EBM.   

 

 

Here is my chief point: Should you fork out the money asked by prep companies for application coaching? Absolutely not. Doing so is bad value at best. Does using these services reap a proven benefit above other resources? Subjectively no and statistically there is no support for prep company superiority - unless the data saying so comes from a test prep company, which is cute, but don't show me such "studies" as it wastes my time and proves points I will make later on regarding your institutionalized deception. Now this highlighted point was the original crux of my posts which appears lost in your response. Perhaps this is my failing? Was my original point obscured by my poignant tongue-in-cheek skepticism of the prep companies and their clients? If my doubt around this industry is poorly expressed and received, then I do apologize, I mean no offense. My point here is to highlight the predatory nature of many of these companies and to emphasize the better options which exist, full stop.

 

Are there test preps that are predatory in nature? Absolutely.  Should a few bad apples ruin the entire batch? Absolutely not.  

 

 

Also, you mention that you can "fake it" on one of our best judgment tests the CASPer. It's not really clear what you are trying to advance here. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but it is really hard based on what you write. So is this what you and similar prep companies are peddling - deception and faking interviews? I frequently read around psychometrics, and nothing you cited is remarkable or makes your services credible, plus I already know that prep companies are merchants of deception. Your (intended?) transparency on this issue may be helpful for those less familiar, so for that I thank you.

Either way, my point remains, if you want to "crack" these assessment systems or rather "prepare for them", you can find tons of advice readily available outside of formalized prep companies. This forum contains many such resources, the good and bad, but all free, isn't that nice?

 

There’s a lot I do for my students that isn’t available by just reading something on here nor would it ever be disclosed, so I’ll just leave it at that.  

 

 

If a pre-med does not seek out these readily available and often free resources in this day and age, I raise my eyebrows. It's almost like showing up to your important job interview uninformed and dressed in a t-shirt and jeans, this is arguably a pretty poor decision. There are a ton of resources available, and freely available. Every university careers office, premed club, or contact on this forum represents discounted or free prep, often altruistically given. There is no excuse not to explore these options.

 

Many of my students have explored all of the resources you mention above after not getting in the first time.  By the time I work with them, they are already on their 3^rd or 4^th application attempt so it’s suffice to say that your advice doesn’t hold true and or is insufficient for many applicants.   

 

 

Ultimately this argument is not one grounded in psychometrics as you try to contort it into. "Faking it," coaching towards success, whatever you want to call it, it's all semantics. My argument is focused solely on the dark underbelly of the often sketchy premed industry. A portion of an industry which you apparently represent. An industry for which I am deeply skeptical. Such companies have inundated these forums with questionable advertisements at best for a long time, at least since the original forum days. Do you recall this from the past 10 years? It is a constant problem for the moderators. This is a problem which I've personally addressed for years with the delete button in agreement with the pm101 rules.

 

I’m not here to change your skepticism.  In fact I think being critical is a great skill every clinician should possess.  What I find ironic is that despite the skepticism towards test prep, this forum seems to self-select which test prep companies are allowed to promote their services throughout the forums. 

 

Take the following current thread for example, which was posted over 2 months ago and has been viewed 600 times that has slipped moderator action.

 

http://forums.premed101.com/index.php?/topic/88163-mock-mmi-circuits-in-downtown-toronto/#entry981614

[rogerroger]

 

 

I will make this short and sweet.

 

Care to elaborate on what you were talking about here regarding "faking it"? I think if we read between the lines it speaks for itself. If it looks like deception, sounds like deception it's probably...

 

 

Faking therefore, can be considered to be one of the documented weaknesses of using SJTs to predict performance. 

 

I've been exploiting these weaknesses in order to maximize my students chances and the results are that they get admitted into the programs they seek.

 

and...

 

 

There’s a lot I do for my students that isn’t available by just reading something on here nor would it ever be disclosed, so I’ll just leave it at that.

 

Complete rubbish, unless you are disclosing confidential information. In that case, we have bigger problems.

 

 

Many of my students have explored all of the resources you mention above after not getting in the first time.  By the time I work with them, they are already on their 3rd or 4th application attempt so it’s suffice to say that your advice doesn’t hold true and or is insufficient for many applicants.

 

The participation of prep companies only stands as a testament to the desperation of the pre-med students, it has nothing to do with my advice not being universally applicable. Furthermore, the intervention of a prep company has no proven part in success. Heck, it might even cause harm. One certainly can't prove is doesn't.

 

If pre-meds here doubt this statement regarding potential harm see the first two quotes from Kevyn posted above in this message. If you are not genuine or trying to "game" the system you are going about admissions the hard way. It is much easier to read up on admissions and present your true passionate self. Go to a career center or pre-med club or contact a med student on this forum and get some free tips on how to do this, no prep company is needed, no snake oil "special advice" exists.

 

I've sat on admission committees, I've written advice on how to prepare. It's free, advice, available to anyone, just search for it on this forum. Others on this forum have done the same. No prep company is going to beat such insight unless they are breaking confidentiality. 

 

You want the real "secret sauce" for admissions? Here it is and for free:

 

If you don't feel like researching past comments on this forum just grab this book: http://www.amazon.ca/Medical-School-Interview-Secrets-Success/dp/097795594X/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1454755152&sr=1-4&keywords=medical+school+interview This book will save you the trouble of searching the forums. Everything med students, and physicians at pm101 would tell you about preparing is summarized in this book.

 

Next, read this series on bioethics and reflect on it: http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/collection/bioethics_for_clinicians_series

 

Then reflect on your CV and have something meaningful to say about every item, each item should help explain how you are better prepared to enter medical school.

 

Lastly, contact a med student on this forum and pick their brain for advice after you have done the above and schedule mock interview(s) with a career center. If you want even more practice contact a pre-med club and attend their mock interviews as well or get together as a group of pre-meds on campus and practice.

 

Cost = $0-30 

 

 

 

 

What I find ironic is that despite the skepticism towards test prep, this forum seems to self-select which test prep companies are allowed to promote their services throughout the forums.

 

Take the following current thread for example, which was posted over 2 months ago and has been viewed 600 times that has slipped moderator action.

 

http://forums.premed...to/#entry981614

 

The moderators are all busy medical students, residents and attendings. Some threads do escape our attention. Thank you for pointing that thread out, it has been dealt with accordingly.

[Kevyn]

 

Care to elaborate on what you were talking about here regarding "faking it"? I think if we read between the lines it speaks for itself. If it looks like deception, sounds like deception it's probably...

 

I thought my comment regarding faking was clear but maybe not.  What I said is that faking responses is considered to be a documented weakness of SJT like CASPer, contrary to the popular belief on here that CASPer answers cannot be “faked”.  In your last post you talked about commercial deception which implies that I support ripping people off at their expense.  This is false.  However, if by deception you mean that it is deceptive for applicants to fake their responses in order to score “better” and by (me) teaching them the skills to achieve this, I therefore play a role in this “deception”, then you are indirectly admitting that there is a benefit to test prep.  I prefer to think of it as my students skewing the validity of the test which we all know is flawed to begin with.

 

 

Complete rubbish, unless you are disclosing confidential information. In that case, we have bigger problems.

 

Disclosing confidential information is not the ONLY way to give someone an advantage.  I’ve been doing this long enough to know what works and doesn’t work. 

 

 

The participation of prep companies only stands as a testament to the desperation of the pre-med students, it has nothing to do with my advice not being universally applicable. Furthermore, the intervention of a prep company has no proven part in success. Heck, it might even cause harm. One certainly can't prove is doesn't.

 

If pre-meds here doubt this statement regarding potential harm see the first two quotes from Kevyn posted above in this message. If you are not genuine or trying to "game" the system you are going about admissions the hard way. It is much easier to read up on admissions and present your true passionate self. Go to a career center or pre-med club or contact a med student on this forum and get some free tips on how to do this, no prep company is needed, no snake oil "special advice" exists.

 

I've sat on admission committees, I've written advice on how to prepare. It's free, advice, available to anyone, just search for it on this forum. Others on this forum have done the same. No prep company is going to beat such insight unless they are breaking confidentiality.

 

We both agree that there are companies that prey on the desperation of pre-med students and may even cause harm, hence the buyer beware nature of the industry.   However, my point in response to your comment is that there are many students who have followed the advice you suggested and they are on their 3rd or 4th application attempt.  You are a staunch opponent of test prep but yet you seem to offer little valuable advice to these applicants and other sub populations of applicants.  The reality is this pool of re-applicants to medical school is growing every year despite them all doing the things you've suggested.

 

It seems like you're saying that it’s much easier to gain admission by just reading up on admissions and presenting your true passionate self.  If so, this is truly an oversimplification and this forum is filled with them.  I refer to this as “snake oil” free advice.  Be aware premeds.  Ask a reapplicant and most will tell you that this is exactly what they’ve been doing (Ie. going to their career center, pre-med club or involving med students).  Why do they keep getting rejected after doing these things?  Likely it has something to do with the fact that most career centers provide only generalized information not specific enough to the medical school admissions center.  Asking a premed club for help is like asking the blind to lead the blind and asking a medical student/resident you befriended for help on premed101 to help you on top of their busy schedules doesn’t usually pan out well in your favor (they have the best intentions, but just aren’t able to devote the time) unless of course you already have the necessary support system in place in which case you likely would not be on your 3rd or 4th attempt getting into medical school.        

 

 

You want the real "secret sauce" for admissions? Here it is and for free:

 

If you don't feel like researching past comments on this forum just grab this book: http://www.amazon.ca...chool interview This book will save you the trouble of searching the forums. Everything med students, and physicians at pm101 would tell you about preparing is summarized in this book.

 

Next, read this series on bioethics and reflect on it: http://www.cmaj.ca/c...inicians_series

 

Then reflect on your CV and have something meaningful to say about every item, each item should help explain how you are better prepared to enter medical school.

 

Lastly, contact a med student on this forum and pick their brain for advice after you have done the above and schedule mock interview(s) with a career center. If you want even more practice contact a pre-med club and attend their mock interviews as well or get together as a group of pre-meds on campus and practice.

 

Cost = $0-30

 

CMAJ is a good free resource for Canadian ethics and I recommend it to all my students.  Similarly UW Dept of Bioethics for my US students.  There’s no need to spend $60 to buy Doing Right.  The book that you mentioned by Jeremiah Fleenor, overwhelming caters to US applicants.  Canadian applicants may benefit but there are important differences that exist for the admissions process between the two countries.  There’s also next to nothing about the MMI which is used at most Canadian medical schools, so for the book to be called The Medical School Interview and for you to recommend it on a Canadian premed forum, I have to reiterate that I question how useful it is going to be.  If you want to talk about deception, then simply look at the book’s cover which has the words Amazon #1 best seller.  This book has never reached to the top of Amazon.ca or .com’s top 100 books, let alone #1 in sub-categories.   My book has topped all relevant Amazon.ca categories (medical school guides, medical test prep review, grad school guides) and surpassed books like First Aid for the USMLE, Kaplan MCAT books, Examkrackers, Guide to the Canadian Family Medicine Examination in Amazon rankings and broken well into Amazon.ca’s top 100 books, yet you seem to think I’m out to take advantage of premeds.  

 

 

   The moderators are all busy medical students, residents and attendings. Some threads do escape our attention. Thank you for pointing that thread out, it has been dealt with accordingly.

 

Thank you for you for dealing with this.  You point out what we already all know about medical students and the life of medicine.  It is a busy life and with the number of mods on this forum, if it takes over 2 months to get a thread taken down, then you can appreciate that soliciting genuine effective "free" help from a stranger within this population can be difficult unless of course, you’re a sibling, family member, close friend, significant other of theirs.  

 

We’ve both made our points and I won’t be replying to anymore comments on this discussion. 

 

[ralk]

Disclosing confidential information is not the ONLY way to give someone an advantage.  I’ve been doing this long enough to know what works and doesn’t work. 

 

And yet you still won't share that deeply held information... unless people pay you, of course.

 

If someone says they have special insight into a problem but will only tell you if you pay them, think about who's interests they're looking out for, there's or your's? I don't doubt that Kevyn has good information to share. The thing is, he doesn't have is unique information worth over $200 per hour, as he seems to charge. Since he denies sharing confidential information, he's got no more insight to share than the rest of us, despite his claims to the contrary. He's selling a product and selling it as best he can, but it's for his benefit, not your's. I also took a look at his book. It's fine. It provides a structured approach and reassurance, both of which are helpful to prospective interviewees. Certainly there's worse ways to spend $30, so buy it if you'd like. However, it's not revealing any information that isn't freely available and certainly not anything that guarantees an admission to Canadian medical schools.

[rmorelan]

we do try to keep the consulting threads in the classified section - the idea being a balance between providing information of what is out there but also not actually allowing a service to take advantage of the board - particularly at vulnerable times. Ha, we aren't perfect at it but we do try. Actually if someone finds a thread in the wrong place a great way of dealing with is to simply let us know.

 

and we do routinely ban them. Even banning some pretty big companies actually that don't obey the forum rules.

[medhope15]

All the consulting you need: take your prereqs + other courses you can ace to get as high of a GPA as possible.

Get a high mark on the MCAT - nobody will do the work for you; study early and figure out your weaknesses and get a tutor or study group if you must.

Meet the other competitive needs - not too hard to look at these threads and see that most people do some sort of long term activities (volunteering, sport, music) , MD shadowing, research to put on their resume.

 

Basically just work hard in undergrad and make yourself stand out.

[A-Stark]

I once got into an (online) argument with this guy about the ethics of selling admissions advice "services". He'd spent a long while writing fairly obvious advice for free online and eventually got in to med school and felt that his advice and services now had more "value". I disagreed - getting in doesn't make anyone an expert because - as medhope15 put it - preparing a strong application is mainly a function of hard work, academics, and being able to maintain some semblance of a balanced lifestyle. It's not that complicated. Perhaps if you don't know how to write a good essay or feel really nervous about interviews you might need some help. But such is available usually for free at your university's career centre.

 

As for CaRMS, that process becomes highly idiosyncratic at the program level, and is mostly about weeding out the weirdos and trying to get the ones you really like.

 

Basically the only people who have special insight into this process are those who have done interviews and sat on admissions committees. Everyone else is an amateur and can certainly offer advice. But for a fee?

 

Anyway, the individual I mentioned above eventually bailed on an FM residency for a "health app" startup, which wasn't all that surprising since his writing style is closer to a management consultant writing books about "leadership" than a physician.

 

The only thing I'll ever bill for (eventually, God willing) is my clinical work. Career advice is always free.

[NLengr]

The only thing I'll ever bill for (eventually, God willing) is my clinical work. Career advice is always free.

Me too. I got all kinds of free advice throughout the years. I don't really wanna charge others for the same advice I got for free.

[Edict]

I'll be honest and say I don't think theres anything wrong with using academic consulting companies. A lot of their advice are just repeats from something you can get for free online or elsewhere but for example for interview prep, they gave me advice (that I was monotone) that my friends hadn't actually given me and I do think it made the difference. 

 

I'm not normally monotone but the stress of the interview made me that way, and after changing that I instantly felt better at interviewing and looking back even if I was an interviewer I would react more positively to someone who seemed interested and excited about what they were saying than someone who seemed like they were nervous and awkward about being there. 

 

The one advantage I see with these paid interviewers is they've seen more applicants than your friends have and so likely have better insight. I think with stakes as high as they are the $200 bucks is completely worth it. There are just a million worse ways to spend your money and even if they are feeding on so called "fear" so what? 

 

For some people, paying for these interview prep companies is probably not going to change a thing, for others it will. For some, their friends are just as good as the interviewers at giving advice but for others they aren't. 

 

P.S. I find it hilarious when people accuse anyone who says these consulting companies are worth it as being paid shills. Its even frustrating to have to say this but I am not paid never have and never will by these consulting companies and these opinions are purely my own and 100% anecdotal. 

[ralk]

I'll be honest and say I don't think theres anything wrong with using academic consulting companies. A lot of their advice are just repeats from something you can get for free online or elsewhere but for example for interview prep, they gave me advice (that I was monotone) that my friends hadn't actually given me and I do think it made the difference. 

 

I'm not normally monotone but the stress of the interview made me that way, and after changing that I instantly felt better at interviewing and looking back even if I was an interviewer I would react more positively to someone who seemed interested and excited about what they were saying than someone who seemed like they were nervous and awkward about being there. 

 

The one advantage I see with these paid interviewers is they've seen more applicants than your friends have and so likely have better insight. I think with stakes as high as they are the $200 bucks is completely worth it. There are just a million worse ways to spend your money and even if they are feeding on so called "fear" so what? 

 

For some people, paying for these interview prep companies is probably not going to change a thing, for others it will. For some, their friends are just as good as the interviewers at giving advice but for others they aren't. 

 

P.S. I find it hilarious when people accuse anyone who says these consulting companies are worth it as being paid shills. Its even frustrating to have to say this but I am not paid never have and never will by these consulting companies and these opinions are purely my own and 100% anecdotal. 

 

I think that's a bit of a false dichotomy. The choice isn't between highly-paid consultants and friends, it's between highly-paid consultants and every other resource out there, which can include but should not be limited to other individuals who haven't been through the admissions process yet either.

 

If there's one thing prep companies provide it's reassurance, which is basically what you got. They're an independent voice that says that you can get into medical school. Half of interviewing well is appearing comfortable and prep companies' main contribution is telling you that you should be comfortable (usually by following their process which is in itself pretty useless). Their advice is a placebo. To the extent that their advice works, it's because applicants think that it works, and because there's some evidence placebos work better when they're paid for.

 

Most of what I do when talking to pre-meds, on this site or in person, is to offer that same reassurance that they should be confident and comfortable in their interviews, because it's the only real secret to interviewing, if you can even call it a secret. 

 

I don't begrudge those who pay for these services for doing it. It likely didn't help them, so it's not putting anyone at a disadvantage. I do take issue with those charging for it. Like naturopaths selling homeopathic pills containing nothing but water, they're making money off of others' fears and ignorance. That's not right, especially not for those claiming to represent the medical profession.

[Edict]

I think that's a bit of a false dichotomy. The choice isn't between highly-paid consultants and friends, it's between highly-paid consultants and every other resource out there, which can include but should not be limited to other individuals who haven't been through the admissions process yet either.

 

If there's one thing prep companies provide it's reassurance, which is basically what you got. They're an independent voice that says that you can get into medical school. Half of interviewing well is appearing comfortable and prep companies' main contribution is telling you that you should be comfortable (usually by following their process which is in itself pretty useless). Their advice is a placebo. To the extent that their advice works, it's because applicants think that it works, and because there's some evidence placebos work better when they're paid for.

 

Most of what I do when talking to pre-meds, on this site or in person, is to offer that same reassurance that they should be confident and comfortable in their interviews, because it's the only real secret to interviewing, if you can even call it a secret. 

 

I don't begrudge those who pay for these services for doing it. It likely didn't help them, so it's not putting anyone at a disadvantage. I do take issue with those charging for it. Like naturopaths selling homeopathic pills containing nothing but water, they're making money off of others' fears and ignorance. That's not right, especially not for those claiming to represent the medical profession.

 

Placebo it might be, but again if its a placebo that works I'll take it any day of the week. 

 

It honestly could be just a tonic to keep your nerves at ease. Everyone will have their nerves calmed through different reasons. I'll be honest though that I definitely took their advice with more value than I would with an online resource for example and yes its partially because I paid for it, but also because of the reasons I mentioned above like feeling like this interviewer (a practicing senior resident) knew what he was saying. At the end of the day you'll never know for sure if it helped though.

 

I think at the end of the day if you think it'll help you and its worth it then spend the money because at the very least it'll calm ur nerves and u'll feel like u did everything u could.  

[ralk]

Placebo it might be, but again if its a placebo that works I'll take it any day of the week. 

 

It honestly could be just a tonic to keep your nerves at ease. Everyone will have their nerves calmed through different reasons. I'll be honest though that I definitely took their advice with more value than I would with an online resource for example and yes its partially because I paid for it, but also because of the reasons I mentioned above like feeling like this interviewer (a practicing senior resident) knew what he was saying. At the end of the day you'll never know for sure if it helped though.

 

I think at the end of the day if you think it'll help you and its worth it then spend the money because at the very least it'll calm ur nerves and u'll feel like u did everything u could.  

 

Placebos work, that's why we test against them, but under normal circumstances we also don't offer placebos in spite of the fact that they work. Without delving too deep into that ethical debate, there are two big reasons why the people offering these services shouldn't.

 

First, while expensive placebos are great for those who can easily afford them, there are there individuals who can't, yet still pay because they think work, same as you. MCAT prep companies are generally worse than interview prep companies simply because the chances of success post-interview are already so high that there are fewer people who pay the money without a happy result. Yet there are certainly those who devote rather large sums of money and don't come away with a positive outcome, some of whom can't really afford those losses.

 

Second, potential placebos aren't always benign, even without considering costs. The advice given can actually be bad, hurting a person's chances at admissions. At a sheer minimum, they can provide false reassurance, preventing people from taking important, more helpful steps. Again, more a problem with MCAT prep companies than interview prep companies because you don't really need that much prep to do well in an interview, but it contributes. You say your interview, a practicing senior resident, felt like they knew what they were saying, but appearances can be deceiving. Take Kevyn, the poster here who runs their own admissions company. With all their boasting, they're pretty easy to find online. Despite interviewing in Canada, they went to an American school known to be a back-up option for Canadians. Maybe he got in in Canada and chose to go to the US, but that would be a very atypical decision. Chances are most active posters on this site have a better track record at interviewing in Canada - not to mention a more recent one - than he does. Yet he's claiming expertise worth hundreds of dollars per hour. I haven't yet seen anything to indicate their advice is bad, but it shouldn't be assumed it's good either - especially not uniquely good.

 

Again, I don't blame those who pay for these services. You're getting fleeced, but at least there's a logic behind choosing to get fleeced. I can't accept those who are charging for the services, however, especially those who are current or soon-to-be physicians. It's unethical, making a good deal of money off of other's fears with a product they know or should no offers no real benefit.

[Edict]

Placebos work, that's why we test against them, but under normal circumstances we also don't offer placebos in spite of the fact that they work. Without delving too deep into that ethical debate, there are two big reasons why the people offering these services shouldn't.

 

First, while expensive placebos are great for those who can easily afford them, there are there individuals who can't, yet still pay because they think work, same as you. MCAT prep companies are generally worse than interview prep companies simply because the chances of success post-interview are already so high that there are fewer people who pay the money without a happy result. Yet there are certainly those who devote rather large sums of money and don't come away with a positive outcome, some of whom can't really afford those losses.

 

Second, potential placebos aren't always benign, even without considering costs. The advice given can actually be bad, hurting a person's chances at admissions. At a sheer minimum, they can provide false reassurance, preventing people from taking important, more helpful steps. Again, more a problem with MCAT prep companies than interview prep companies because you don't really need that much prep to do well in an interview, but it contributes. You say your interview, a practicing senior resident, felt like they knew what they were saying, but appearances can be deceiving. Take Kevyn, the poster here who runs their own admissions company. With all their boasting, they're pretty easy to find online. Despite interviewing in Canada, they went to an American school known to be a back-up option for Canadians. Maybe he got in in Canada and chose to go to the US, but that would be a very atypical decision. Chances are most active posters on this site have a better track record at interviewing in Canada - not to mention a more recent one - than he does. Yet he's claiming expertise worth hundreds of dollars per hour. I haven't yet seen anything to indicate their advice is bad, but it shouldn't be assumed it's good either - especially not uniquely good.

 

Again, I don't blame those who pay for these services. You're getting fleeced, but at least there's a logic behind choosing to get fleeced. I can't accept those who are charging for the services, however, especially those who are current or soon-to-be physicians. It's unethical, making a good deal of money off of other's fears with a product they know or should no offers no real benefit.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, and I personally believe that MCAT prep companies honestly don't do much for you. Most of that is self study whereas interview prep is a bit different. 

 

I would argue though that if you can make it through to the med school application process you have spent much much more than the extra 200 bucks or so it takes to do an interview prep session. The difference of not getting in one year and lets say getting in the next is quite significant of an opportunity cost. 

 

The other disingenuous thing is when potential applicants are telling others not to use those resources when they themselves use it. 

 

Overall, I believe in using all resources available, sometimes friends can say the wrong thing and i'd argue your friends are less reliable of a source (usually, of course if your friend is a med student or someone who has a lot of experience with this then that's different, but not all of us have friends like that) than a MMI prep person. 

 

Again, I still do believe that interview prep can help. It might not help everyone but I do believe that for some people it can help.