Uxbridge, On

[Neurophilic]

I agree with you aswell on this one. However, the facts like you rightfully mentioned is that someone that is from Francophone and Aboriginal stream have a significant advantage over all other non-rural who do not fall under these categories.  This is a true fact and you mentioning does not make you look like you are undermining anyone. Facts are just facts.

I just wanted to clarify just in case someone took it the wrong way. That's all.

[geriatricsdoc]

Good point!

[ploughboy]

The question that I am trying to raise is offering opportunities to non-rural applicants to work in the north.

 

I don't see anything stopping matriculants of any Canadian med school from working in the north, should they choose to.

[Neurophilic]

I don't see anything stopping matriculants of any Canadian med school from working in the north, should they choose to.

I think there are a few barriers. Lack of general infrastructure, technology, and probably positions for specific specialties just to name a few. 

[ploughboy]

I think there are a few barriers. Lack of general infrastructure, technology, and probably positions for specific specialties just to name a few. 

 

I specifically said "matriculants", not "graduating residents".  If you spend 11 years in the U of T neurosurgical program and decide at year 10.5 that you really really want to practice in Attawapiskat...well that just ain't gonna happen.

 

But if you matriculate and decide from the get-go (or let's be honest - anywhere up to about the middle of your PGY-2 year regardless of your specialty, if you're willing to transfer) that you want to practice in the north, you can aim yourself toward rural family medicine and pretty much write your own ticket in terms of career and scope of practice.

 

I'm just kind of taking issue with the way OP seems to be carrying on about how unfair it is that (s)he is going to be deprived of a chance of ever practicing in Northern Ontario because NOSM won't see the error of its ways and give the same consideration to people from Uxbridge as they do to people from Nakina. 

 

Do your med school at U of Anywhere and do a bunch of rural/northern electives.  Residency programs and physician recruitment committees will be falling all over themselves to sign you.

[geriatricsdoc]

I specifically said "matriculants", not "graduating residents".  If you spend 11 years in the U of T neurosurgical program and decide at year 10.5 that you really really want to practice in Attawapiskat...well that just ain't gonna happen.

 

But if you matriculate and decide from the get-go (or let's be honest - anywhere up to about the middle of your PGY-2 year regardless of your specialty, if you're willing to transfer) that you want to practice in the north, you can aim yourself toward rural family medicine and pretty much write your own ticket in terms of career and scope of practice.

 

I'm just kind of taking issue with the way OP seems to be carrying on about how unfair it is that (s)he is going to be deprived of a chance of ever practicing in Northern Ontario because NOSM won't see the error of its ways and give the same consideration to people from Uxbridge as they do to people from Nakina. 

 

Do your med school at U of Anywhere and do a bunch of rural/northern electives.  Residency programs and physician recruitment committees will be falling all over themselves to sign you.

Well although I see what you are saying, the cold hard truth is that residency programs would only consider someone if they get into med school in the first place. If someone does not even have a chance to become a doctor, then residency is out of question. When NOSM does not give someone from Uxbridge the rural advantage in comparison to someone from Nakina, they are essentially ensuring the semi-rural applicants (i.e from Uxbridge) do not have equal opportunity or perhaps any opportunity to make it to medical school.

 

Based on stats (there are many applicants who got accepted to only NOSM and no other schools accepted them). NOSM does not ask for MCAT or even Science prerequisites. Applicants can get in because they have context score or rural advantage,I have seen many applicants with sub par GPA get in aswell. This is not to say they are not intelligent or capable. I am just saying that many applicants get in because of this rural applicant and context score rule NOT because they had higher GPA or MCAT than non rural applicants. The same people who got into NOSM may not get accepted to other Canadian Schools. Basically what I am saying is non rural applicants do not get that same chance to get to NOSM as rural applicants even though they may wish to practice in the rural areas if given the opportunity to become a doctor.

 

The truth is NOSM does not give them the chance to become a doctor. Many Canadian doctors do not feel like practicing the North. As a result, we get IMGs to practice in North by forcing them to sign ROS. Are IMGs really better than non rural Canadian trained doctors? Why cant we just scrap the IMG spots and get more non rural applicant seats at NOSM?

 

Also, someone graduating from NOSM has the freedom to move around after they graduate. This is despite the fact that their education was funded by the Northern Ontario Government and that their admission was hugely decided based on their context score. To me every rural applicant should sign a 10+ year ROS once they decide to use the context score advantage to get in to NOSM. Otherwise in theory we can have all NOSM applicants leave the north after they graduate from Medschool.

[Nyscol]

As a lifelong rural NO resident I have been watching this topic develop over the past few days and can't help but chime in. Whilst I can understand the frustration that you are experiencing granted the extremely competitive nature of medical school in Canada (especially the bubble that is southern Ontario) I feel like this entire post is kind of a case of sour grapes. I do empathize with you, but don't confuse the issues here. All preliminary assessments have indicated that NOSM is working. Friends of mine have gotten a family doctor for the first time in years. Although it is still pretty early, it is an investment that is paying off. 

 

I remember reading quite a bit about ROS, and it is a band-aid solution - a terrible one at that for NOSM. For one, even a ROS of 10+ years is not going to solve the physician shortage, in fact it might even exacerbate it. Being a family physician (or any primary care physician) is about continuity of care and it doesn't really set out to achieve NOSM's aim if physicians take on a patient load for 10 years and then bail on the North. Secondly do we really want physicians to work here simply because they are contractually obligated and not because they want to be and genuinely will thrive in a NO community? Growing up here, physicians play a big part in our communities and generally someone who wants to be here is going to be more of an asset then someone who is simply waiting out there 10 years until they can get out. (That isn't to say that someone might not enjoy it and want to say.) My third point is, that this is a "there are only so many seats on the bus" debate. There are many directions that NOSM could have taken, but when NOSM was formed the research had shown them that the biggest predictor of physician retention was whether or not people grew up here or spent a significant amount of their formative years here. NOSM's stakeholders are the communities it serves and those will come first. 

 

Furthermore, I don't mean to discourage you (I really do wish you the best) but there is rural, and then there is Northern rural and the two shouldn't really be used interchangeably when discussing NOSM. There is a huge difference. I'm not trying to throw a pity party for myself and all my other NO cronies but when you grow up here you really come to understand the "Toronto is the center of the universe" paradigm. Pretty much everything (except finding parking) is more difficult, and more expensive to do here. We can't even take the MCAT here, hence the reason NOSM doesn't require it. Basically everything we do we have to travel on single lane highways that are often not plowed, public transit is nil or lacking. I have peers that live in communities that have no road access. I love my hometown, but it hasn't been without it's challenges. There's many different metrics that assess whether a community is rural, but those likely have little to no weight when it comes to NOSM's policies. So while I won't contest that Uxbridge might be considered rural by some standards, you have to ask yourself should it be considered rural within NOSM's perspective, and would considering it rural within that context serve to forward NOSM's mandate?

 

There's many schools that I would love to apply to. I grew up with a disability that severely impacted my academic performance until about half way through my second year of university. I know that part of the late diagnosis was likely due to not having access to the specialists that larger communities might have. This meant that my only shot at medical school was a second degree and schools like Mac are definitely out of the equation. I could stew over this, but it's better to just focus on what I can control.

 

Edit: I wanted to add further that people in NO deserve physicians who want to spend their lives here and develop the communities, not physicians who simply want to use them as a stepping stone, or who are contractually obligated to stay. I wanted to further add that there are several metrics to which you can prove your interest in NO to NOSM. You could move here, there's a few people on this board that have had experiences with that. I am not entirely positive what the going rate is, perhaps 6 or 7 years before you start accumulating context points.

[Neurophilic]

 

 

I'm just kind of taking issue with the way OP seems to be carrying on about how unfair it is that (s)he is going to be deprived of a chance of ever practicing in Northern Ontario because NOSM won't see the error of its ways and give the same consideration to people from Uxbridge as they do to people from Nakina. 

 

Do your med school at U of Anywhere and do a bunch of rural/northern electives.  Residency programs and physician recruitment committees will be falling all over themselves to sign you.

I think the complaining from the OP has more to do with not having the ability to play the rural card to get into med school but I could be wrong. Yes you are correct that if someone is set on doing rural medicine, there is virtually nothing that can stop them. The barriers which I was referring to were in the context of convincing more doctors to practice rural medicine (those who do not have a passion to do so) rather than barriers for those who have a passion for it.

[geriatricsdoc]

check below

[geriatricsdoc]

As a lifelong rural NO resident I have been watching this topic develop over the past few days and can't help but chime in. Whilst I can understand the frustration that you are experiencing granted the extremely competitive nature of medical school in Canada (especially the bubble that is southern Ontario) I feel like this entire post is kind of a case of sour grapes. I do empathize with you, but don't confuse the issues here. All preliminary assessments have indicated that NOSM is working. Friends of mine have gotten a family doctor for the first time in years. Although it is still pretty early, it is an investment that is paying off. 

 

I remember reading quite a bit about ROS, and it is a band-aid solution - a terrible one at that for NOSM. For one, even a ROS of 10+ years is not going to solve the physician shortage, in fact it might even exacerbate it. Being a family physician (or any primary care physician) is about continuity of care and it doesn't really set out to achieve NOSM's aim if physicians take on a patient load for 10 years and then bail on the North. Secondly do we really want physicians to work here simply because they are contractually obligated and not because they want to be and genuinely will thrive in a NO community? Growing up here, physicians play a big part in our communities and generally someone who wants to be here is going to be more of an asset then someone who is simply waiting out there 10 years until they can get out. (That isn't to say that someone might not enjoy it and want to say.) My third point is, that this is a "there are only so many seats on the bus" debate. There are many directions that NOSM could have taken, but when NOSM was formed the research had shown them that the biggest predictor of physician retention was whether or not people grew up here or spent a significant amount of their formative years here. NOSM's stakeholders are the communities it serves and those will come first. 

 

Furthermore, I don't mean to discourage you (I really do wish you the best) but there is rural, and then there is Northern rural and the two shouldn't really be used interchangeably when discussing NOSM. There is a huge difference. I'm not trying to throw a pity party for myself and all my other NO cronies but when you grow up here you really come to understand the "Toronto is the center of the universe" paradigm. Pretty much everything (except finding parking) is more difficult, and more expensive to do here. We can't even take the MCAT here, hence the reason NOSM doesn't require it. Basically everything we do we have to travel on single lane highways that are often not plowed, public transit is nil or lacking. I have peers that live in communities that have no road access. I love my hometown, but it hasn't been without it's challenges. There's many different metrics that assess whether a community is rural, but those likely have little to no weight when it comes to NOSM's policies. So while I won't contest that Uxbridge might be considered rural by some standards, you have to ask yourself should it be considered rural within NOSM's perspective, and would considering it rural within that context serve to forward NOSM's mandate?

 

There's many schools that I would love to apply to. I grew up with a disability that severely impacted my academic performance until about half way through my second year of university. I know that part of the late diagnosis was likely due to not having access to the specialists that larger communities might have. This meant that my only shot at medical school was a second degree and schools like Mac are definitely out of the equation. I could stew over this, but it's better to just focus on what I can control.

 

Edit: I wanted to add further that people in NO deserve physicians who want to spend their lives here and develop the communities, not physicians who simply want to use them as a stepping stone, or who are contractually obligated to stay. I wanted to further add that there are several metrics to which you can prove your interest in NO to NOSM. You could move here, there's a few people on this board that have had experiences with that. I am not entirely positive what the going rate is, perhaps 6 or 7 years before you start accumulating context points.

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2014/08/25/efforts_to_license_foreigntrained_doctors_paying_off_in_ontario.html

 

 There are a number of provinces that have attempted to integrate IMGs into the provincial health care system by granting provisional (also known as “conditional,” “restricted” or “temporary”) medical licences. These enable IMGs to practise with restrictions until requirements for full licensure are completed, and are often coupled with rural contracts. Provinces with significant rural populations and problems with physician retention such as Newfoundland and Labrador, Saskatchewan and Manitoba have the greatest number of IMGs with provisional licences, and other provinces such as Quebec and Ontario grant few provisional licences.

 

https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2015HLTH0056-001280

 

The government is willing to spend money to create programs for internationally trained doctors who received medical training from the despicable caribean islands so that they practice in the rural North for 2 years. As the same time, they are not willing to spend any money towards training non rural Canadian students  at NOSM. Instead of funding residency positions just for IMGs in Northern Ontario, why cant the government fund more seats at NOSM reserved for non rural Canadian applicants?

 

These IMGs have no idea about Canadian or rural culture, they just work in the north to get their license then they move to Toronto and urban areas. The government is being a hypocrite funding so many spots for IMGs while denying non rural Canadians the opportunity to train in NOSM due to the context score admission barrier. Why dont the international doctors get screened for context score? The context score is a useless pointless way to measure someones desire to practice in the North. If this score is implemented then everyone including IMGs practicing in the north should have such screening. There is no point discriminating Canadian non rural applicants while favouring IMGs to practice in the North.

[ploughboy]

Gotta say, I can't tell if I'm being elaborately trolled or if you're just a bit young and don't have the same perspective that some others have.

 

Regardless, I think you're conflating a whole bunch of issues (access to medical care by marginalized populations, access to medical education, CMG vs IMG vs CSA, rural vs urban, north vs south, generalist vs specialist, etc).  Makes it hard to respond when you're so all over the place.

 

So I'm just not going to. 

 

Instead, answer me this:  For shits and giggles, let's pretend I'm on the NOSM admissions committee.  Convince me that you, young padawan from Uxbridge, are committed to practicing medicine in Northern Ontario.  I don't want to hear about how you will be spending 6 years in the north during medical school and residency, because as you yourself said it's possible for NOSM applicants to finish their training and get the hell out of there once they have a medical licence. 

 

Tell me about what have you *done* that shows that you are *committed* to the practice of medicine in Northern Ontario. 

 

Keep in mind that there are five or six other people who are also interviewing for this seat, and some of them are gonads-deep in their committment to the north.  Why should I hire you instead of them?  What makes you stand out?

 

Go.

 

 

PS - Also, no whining about how ploughboy is picking on you.  If I thought you were completely hopeless, I wouldn't bother replying.

[geriatricsdoc]

Gotta say, I can't tell if I'm being elaborately trolled or if you're just a bit young and don't have the same perspective that some others have.

 

Regardless, I think you're conflating a whole bunch of issues (access to medical care by marginalized populations, access to medical education, CMG vs IMG vs CSA, rural vs urban, north vs south, generalist vs specialist, etc).  Makes it hard to respond when you're so all over the place.

 

So I'm just not going to. 

 

Instead, answer me this:  For shits and giggles, let's pretend I'm on the NOSM admissions committee.  Convince me that you, young padawan from Uxbridge, are committed to practicing medicine in Northern Ontario.  I don't want to hear about how you will be spending 6 years in the north during medical school and residency, because as you yourself said it's possible for NOSM applicants to finish their training and get the hell out of there once they have a medical licence. 

 

Tell me about what have you *done* that shows that you are *committed* to the practice of medicine in Northern Ontario. 

 

Keep in mind that there are five or six other people who are also interviewing for this seat, and some of them are gonads-deep in their committment to the north.  Why should I hire you instead of them?  What makes you stand out?

 

Go.

 

 

PS - Also, no whining about how ploughboy is picking on you.  If I thought you were completely hopeless, I wouldn't bother replying.

Hehe you are funny. Well I would reply that I am willing to dedicate my entire life to serve the North. I am willing to sign a contract to practice in Northern Ontario for the rest of my life if given an opportunity to study medicine. What position can someone take who is not rural and wants to study medicine NOSM? The answer is none. 

 

Also, lets pretend that my answer was not sufficient for gaining that seat. What makes a candidate from the Caribbean islands any special in practicing medicine in the North? Is it because they signed ROS? I am willing to sign ROS too. Even if my context score is weak, I am willing to work on that. But there is no opportunity given by NOSM to do that. The only other way one can practice medicine in the North with a poor context score is by studying medicine in the caribbean and trying for northern ontario residency seats or by studying medicine in other schools in Canada (very hard).

 

If a non rural canadian applicant doesnt get a seat in NOSM then no IMG deserves a chance to practice medicine in the north either.

[NOCat]

Hehe you are funny. Well I would reply that I am willing to dedicate my entire life to serve the North. I am willing to sign a contract to practice in Northern Ontario for the rest of my life if given an opportunity to study medicine. What position can someone take who is not rural and wants to study medicine NOSM? The answer is none. 

 

Also, lets pretend that my answer was not sufficient for gaining that seat. What makes a candidate from the Caribbean islands any special in practicing medicine in the North? Is it because they signed ROS? I am willing to sign ROS too. Even if my context score is weak, I am willing to work on that. But there is no opportunity given by NOSM to do that. The only other way one can practice medicine in the North with a poor context score is by studying medicine in the caribbean and trying for northern ontario residency seats or by studying medicine in other schools in Canada (very hard).

The issue that I see with this mindset is that you don't seem to WANT to be a northern doctor, you want to be a doctor at any price. Saying that you are willing to sign a contract to work in the north for life if it means you can become a doctor indicates that it's something you could put up with in order to achieve your ultimate goal (being a doctor) but that it isn't something you are passionate about. NOSM wants to produce physicians that love the north and appreciate the specific challenges involved with being a health practitioner in a rural, northern community, not physicians that "are willing" to work in the north if they have to. 

[geriatricsdoc]

The issue that I see with this mindset is that you don't seem to WANT to be a northern doctor, you want to be a doctor at any price. Saying that you are willing to sign a contract to work in the north for life if it means you can become a doctor indicates that it's something you could put up with in order to achieve your ultimate goal (being a doctor) but that it isn't something you are passionate about. NOSM wants to produce physicians that love the north and appreciate the specific challenges involved with being a health practitioner in a rural, northern community, not physicians that "are willing" to work in the north if they have to. 

I think its the other way round, the policy makers in the North want to produce physicians that are willing to work in the north. If there are no doctors in the north how can you address the northern shortage? A huge proportion of doctors in the north are IMGs. They do not care about the specific challenges etc of being in the North. They are just there because they did not get any other residency positions in Canada. IMGs have to practise with restrictions in northern ontario until requirements for full licensure are completed. After getting full license around 80% of these IMGs move to Toronto. After that the government looks for new IMGs to work in the north. Selection committee and physician recruiters in the North do not care at all whether they appreciate challenges of being in the north. That is not taken into consideration. They just need doctors to work in areas no one wants to work. It is a win win for both parties (IMGs and government). A very small portion of physicians practicing in the North are trained in NOSM. The school was only founded in 2005 so many doctors have not even completed residency yet. Hence, any claims about this context score policy working is not based on strong evidence. Most people who got in to NOSM are supporters of this policy. Why wouldnt they support this policy? I mean they got the advantage of being a rural applicant. I did not and hence I am complaining. Would I complain if I was getting the same advantage, the opportunity to become a doctor? I would not. Hence, if my opinion is biased then the opinion of Northern doctors could also be biased. So lets have a discussion about policies and not about individuals. 

 

There is nothing wrong with wanting to become a doctor by paying any price (especially if that price can help shorten the doctor crisis in the north). If NOSM scrapped the rural advantage policy, many rural applicants would feel discriminated against. If residency directors stopped taking IMGs then the IMGs would complain. Its very easy to discriminate non rural Canadians since its just NOSM that is doing it. There are 16 other schools that non rural applicants can apply apply to so people think its okay to have special recruitment policies for NOSM.

[Nyscol]

As an advocate for people with disabilities I would love to see a perfect world where everyone with the drive and ambition would have the opportunity to become a physician regardless of metrics such as GPA, context, etc. I know that this however, is a pipe dream. Training a physician is a high risk and high cost proposition thus every medical school must make some predictions about the potential success of applicants and this by definition is discrimination. Ultimately every school is taking a risk with every applicant, thus they have to predict the success of that applicant to mitigate the risk. In making these predictions the central question is: Will this person succeed in medicine? Does this automatically mean that someone with a 4.0 GPA is going to be a more competent physician than someone with a 3.8, definitely not 100% of the time. In answering the primary question of “will this person succeed,” there has to be some kind of metric that allows schools to make predictions. Schools can have different philosophies on how to make these predictions (I.E Calgary favoring CARS section, Mac looking at all years etc,) but the bottom line is that medical education is a scarce and important commodity that is high demand/ low supply, and thus schools have to take measures to ensure that their risks are mitigated and that they will matriculate people that will succeed.

 

With NOSM it's a little more complicated because the key question is no longer just "will this person be a good doctor?" It is now, "will this person be a good doctor, and will they contribute to our mandate by practicing, thriving and contributing to the north?" In the end this is discrimination to some degree, but it's an "ends justifies the means" approach. In the end Northern Ontario's collective need for physicians and adequate health care comes before anyone's individual desire to become a physician. Does this mean that everyone with a great context score will return to NO, no, but it is the best predictor thus far. I will reiterate my earlier comment about how we deserve better than just physicians on ROS who are legally bound to practicing here. It’s a very different life here.

 

I think the IMG’s are beyond the point here. Hypothetically if IMG funding was cut and that funding was funneled towards more NOSM seats nothing would change, NOSM would still have to answer those two questions: “Will this person be a competent physician, and will they practice in Northern Ontario,” and the context score is still the best tool to assess that. It’s one thing to say you want to work here and live here for the rest of your life, but what NOSM is looking for is proof. Talk is cheap. If you haven’t spent an extended amount of time here it might be a cultural shock for you, I know it’s a cultural shock for me when I spend time in larger urban centers. If you are serious about NOSM then you need to show them some tangible proof. Props go out to those people on this board that have actually packed up their lives and moved here, it isn’t easy – especially when the rewards for moving here are based on pure speculation. We don’t actually know how many years you have to be here to start to show this commitment to NOSM, but bottom line is you have to show some tangible interest in being here. Context isn't 100% perfect but until we can build a mind reading device that allows us to examine the future desires of living and practicing in NO it is all we have.

 

Edit: This reminds me of the lawsuit that that girl attending U of M filed for not gaining admission to their medical school. Part of the plaintiffs argument was based on the University of Manitoba giving some preference to rural applicants. Here's a link if anyone missed it.

 

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/failed-bid-for-med-school-no-basis-for-suit-judge-264347141.html

[geriatricsdoc]

As an advocate for people with disabilities I would love to see a perfect world where everyone with the drive and ambition would have the opportunity to become a physician regardless of metrics such as GPA, context, etc. I know that this however, is a pipe dream. Training a physician is a high risk and high cost proposition thus every medical school must make some predictions about the potential success of applicants and this by definition is discrimination. Ultimately every school is taking a risk with every applicant, thus they have to predict the success of that applicant to mitigate the risk. In making these predictions the central question is: Will this person succeed in medicine? Does this automatically mean that someone with a 4.0 GPA is going to be a more competent physician than someone with a 3.8, definitely not 100% of the time. In answering the primary question of “will this person succeed,” there has to be some kind of metric that allows schools to make predictions. Schools can have different philosophies on how to make these predictions (I.E Calgary favoring CARS section, Mac looking at all years etc,) but the bottom line is that medical education is a scarce and important commodity that is high demand/ low supply, and thus schools have to take measures to ensure that their risks are mitigated and that they will matriculate people that will succeed.

 

With NOSM it's a little more complicated because the key question is no longer just "will this person be a good doctor?" It is now, "will this person be a good doctor, and will they contribute to our mandate by practicing, thriving and contributing to the north?" In the end this is discrimination to some degree, but it's an "ends justifies the means" approach. In the end Northern Ontario's collective need for physicians and adequate health care comes before anyone's individual desire to become a physician. Does this mean that everyone with a great context score will return to NO, no, but it is the best predictor thus far. I will reiterate my earlier comment about how we deserve better than just physicians on ROS who are legally bound to practicing here. It’s a very different life here.

 

I think the IMG’s are beyond the point here. Hypothetically if IMG funding was cut and that funding was funneled towards more NOSM seats nothing would change, NOSM would still have to answer those two questions: “Will this person be a competent physician, and will they practice in Northern Ontario,” and the context score is still the best tool to assess that. It’s one thing to say you want to work here and live here for the rest of your life, but what NOSM is looking for is proof. Talk is cheap. If you haven’t spent an extended amount of time here it might be a cultural shock for you, I know it’s a cultural shock for me when I spend time in larger urban centers. If you are serious about NOSM then you need to show them some tangible proof. Props go out to those people on this board that have actually packed up their lives and moved here, it isn’t easy – especially when the rewards for moving here are based on pure speculation. We don’t actually know how many years you have to be here to start to show this commitment to NOSM, but bottom line is you have to show some tangible interest in being here.

I agree with you. Its all correct the stuff you are saying.

 

Well there is no chance for being admitted to NOSM for me as an applicant. Maybe the IMGs from medical schools in Caribbean islands with shady training can do a better job than me. 

[Nyscol]

Instead of arguing and finger pointing, we could have perhaps helped you. All we know thus far is that you are from Uxbridge. There are 16 other schools out there. I completely empathize with you given how competitive it is, and although I wouldn't go to the Caribbean myself I am not prepared to disparage this option for every single person. For people who aren't dead set on returning to Canada, and who may be independently wealthy it might not be that bad of a choice - we all have different values and who are we to judge. I don't know anything about the quality of the education in the Caribbean so I won't comment on that, but I have heard of a few successful physicians who studied there. 

 

Ultimately we are all in the same boat here, no need to cut each other down. Good luck with your applications, I'm sure if you have drive, passion and grit you will find a way, some how. 

[geriatricsdoc]

Instead of arguing and finger pointing, we could have perhaps helped you. All we know thus far is that you are from Uxbridge. There are 16 other schools out there. I completely empathize with you given how competitive it is, and although I wouldn't go to the Caribbean myself I am not prepared to disparage this option for every single person. For people who aren't dead set on returning to Canada, and who may be independently wealthy it might not be that bad of a choice - we all have different values and who are we to judge. I don't know anything about the quality of the education in the Caribbean so I won't comment on that, but I have heard of a few successful physicians who studied there. 

 

Ultimately we are all in the same boat here, no need to cut each other down. Good luck with your applications, I'm sure if you have drive, passion and grit you will find a way, some how. 

Thanks a lot. I did not mean to sound condescending or anything like that. NOSM is one of the most competitive schools out there. Best of luck to you aswell! (There are not 16 schools, there are about 5 to be precise because the french ones are out of question and the OOP ones are much more difficult to get in than Ontario)

[FeministKilljoy]

Then apply elsewhere? Like I said before, you have 16 other medical schools to choose from. OR prove to the adcoms that you're willing to devote your career and life to the north. I did by getting an interview offer and I will work my butt off to demonstrate that at my interview.

[NOCat]

Best of luck to everyone on here! We may have differing opinions about NOSM's context, but hopefully we will all find our way into medical school one day.

[Nyscol]

You did kind of come out the gate swinging geriatricsdoc haha. By the way, what is your experience in geriatrics? I minored in gero in my second degree. I understand, it's a frustrating and heartbreaking process at times. Also it's important to debate these things, and they are the most important questions in policy and health care. Ultimately, even if we felt compelled to none of us on this board have the power to change policy on a macro level (at least I don't think so.) But what we do have is a fair amount of collective wisdom/ experiences to tap in to. 

 

Best of luck to you too NOCat, it's definitely a life-long endeavor. I keep telling myself that the road to being a physician starts long before that first day of med-school. 

[Mohammed]

Excuse me guys for my question, What is the point of discussing whether NOSM has a fair system or not if the school does not listen to non of you and most likely nothing would be changed?

[Eosin]

I have worked in Northwestern Ontario (remote communities and small town urban) and my spouse works in an urban centre in Northern Ontario. Through my work experience, I have plenty of things to say about health care in First Nations communities and Northern Ontario in general. I have every intention of staying in the north, but my context score doesn't carry me very far in the process. I understand the concept and theory behind the context score (residence location specifically), but I believe that there is more than one way of addressing the mandate. I'm not here to argue about the rules - fact is every school has its own system, and these are the rules of the game. Good luck to those who got interviews.

[ploughboy]

Well there is no chance for being admitted to NOSM for me as an applicant. Maybe the IMGs from medical schools in Caribbean islands with shady training can do a better job than me.

 

Thank-you for posting this. It reminded me that I am sometimes a stupid Muppet who gives people the benefit of the doubt long past when they deserve it.

 

Please carry on seeking validation from the Internet while pissing and moaning about how hard done by you are.

[geriatricsdoc]

Thank-you for posting this. It reminded me that I am sometimes a stupid Muppet who gives people the benefit of the doubt long past when they deserve it.

 

Please carry on seeking validation from the Internet while pissing and moaning about how hard done by you are.

Cool