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2019 CaRMS unfilled spots

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33 minutes ago, medigeek said:

Well end of the day, a lot of the practical learning you do during clerkship anyway. Step 1 I certainly agree may not be the most useful test but I believe there is strong data that shows it correlates very well to passing residency boards (in the US of course). 

What are you referring to by knowledge gaps exactly? 

So yes, I think the Steps prepare you for acing other tests. I would argue writing the Steps prepares you to write other tests. One knowledge gap is learning the various subtypes of common diseases but also knowing the practicalities of how they are treated. Which meds do you use, which meds are proven to work and which aren't. These kinds of things aren't really tested in the steps. A lot of those diseases that you learn about in step 1 or even step 2ck, you'll never see again. I've never seen and probably will never see more than 60% of the conditions tested in the steps. 

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12 minutes ago, xiphoid said:

Everything you said in the first part is very true. Then you completely lost my support with the second part. Yes, people who do very well at UK and Aussie medical schools (not just passing, but in the top 10-20% let's say) likely would have done well in a Canadian system too. However, the fact that Canadian medical school admissions skews towards applicants with higher SES is not solved by Irish and Aussie schools. These schools have really high tuitions (made worse by the exchange rate in recent years) and few Canadian banks offer any sort of LOC for students pursuing medical school abroad. Generally, the people who are accessing medical school through this route are from high SES families (in my opinion, generally from higher SES than the average med student at a Canadian school) and many have parents or extended family practicing medicine in Canada. By your logic in the first part, these students are advantaged in gaining med school admissions already in Canada. Those are truly disadvantaged in Canada rarely have the means to pursue medicine abroad and do eventually end up pursuing alternate career paths after repeated attempts to get in here, even if they too, like their often wealthy CSA counterparts, "truly feel medicine is their calling".

They gets lines of credit with cosigners. Most CSAs don't have parents paying 300k upfront lol. 

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1 hour ago, medigeek said:

They gets lines of credit with cosigners. Most CSAs don't have parents paying 300k upfront lol. 

Lines of credit with cosigners in and of itself already puts you at middle class and above.  And most banks aren't giving the same amount in LOCs to IMGs as they are to CMGs(ironically, since CMGs dont need them really to the same extent).   And most schools IMGs attend, the LOC is not enough to cover the full cost of attendance.  

Flinders is 296k AUD tuition alone
USyd is 312K AUD tuition alone
UMelb is 364k AUD tuition alone
UQueensland is 336K AUD tuition alone

Knock off 5% and you have the CAD equivalent for the AUD.

SGU, ROSS = 50k+ USD per year 

RCSI = 336k CAD tuition alone; with the cheapest of the irish schools being 260k CAD tuition alone.

Yes there are cheaper schools than the above in eastern europe, some other carribeans, but the majority of CSAs are at schools like the above, where tuition is astronomical, and then adding cost of living at places like the above. Just having a LOC is no where near enough. You need to be above middle class for sure, if not higher SES to have the kind of expendable money sitting around. Not to mention accruing interest. 

250k-300kCAD is the max CMGs are getting. So even if we assume IMGs with suitable cosigners are getting 250kCAD...thats a deficit of 100k+ for tuition alone, then another 100k in cost of living and interest at a minimum.
 

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8 hours ago, TalsKnight said:

Haha, the main point I was making is that some of the schools Canadians attend outside of Canada are world class and provide an excellent medical education. I routinely see Canadian med students bash CSA's/question their credentials and education which I think is pretty shortsighted.

I think the real reason Canadian medical students may bash CSAs is not because of the education, its because of the quality of candidate they accept. No one doubts that local Australia medical schools aren't doing good teaching, but people believe that those with lower GPAs/MCAT scores were able to escape to get trained elsewhere and want to come back and take what many CMGs feel they deserve first dibs on because they had more competitive applications. Going to Melbourne is not going to make you a good medical student if you weren't as good a student to begin with. 

Ultimately, it is not always a training issue, it is simply an issue with skipping the line. 

The other issue as mentioned in other posts is the issue of cost. In essence, some CMGs are unhappy that Canadians who aren't as competitive applicants, but are wealthy enough to afford the tuition that Australian and Irish medical schools charge, want to essentially use their money, give it to a foreign country and skip the line ahead of Canadians who may had to re-apply and improve their apps to get a chance at. 

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7 minutes ago, Edict said:

I think the real reason Canadian medical students may bash CSAs is not because of the education, its because of the quality of candidate they accept. No one doubts that local Australia medical schools aren't doing good teaching, but people believe that those with lower GPAs/MCAT scores were able to escape to get trained elsewhere and want to come back and take what many CMGs feel they deserve first dibs on because they had more competitive applications. Going to Melbourne is not going to make you a good medical student if you weren't as good a student to begin with. 

Ultimately, it is not always a training issue, it is simply an issue with skipping the line. 

The other issue as mentioned in other posts is the issue of cost. In essence, some CMGs are unhappy that Canadians who aren't as competitive applicants, but are wealthy enough to afford the tuition that Australian and Irish medical schools charge, want to essentially use their money, give it to a foreign country and skip the line ahead of Canadians who may had to re-apply and improve their apps to get a chance at. 

I will give the benefit though, that if you make it through, and take the USMLES to dual apply, you're a strong candidate. Just because you need a 3.8+ in Canada to get into medical school, doesn't mean its actually a requirement to do well in medical school and be a good physician (hence why 1000s who went the IMG route end up doing just fine).   Its the perceptions that people who had money are able to save time by not having to continue to build their applications, do masters, do 2nd undergrads etc to be more competitive to get into a Canadian medical school.   Joe Smith with his 3.3 going to USyd, right after undergrad in canada, and then you have John Doe who had a 3.8, did a masters or worked and improved his non-academics, retook the MCAT for a higher score etc etc and got in on the 2nd-3rd attempt in Canada....well obviously John Doe will have the unfair perception of Joe who had access to 400k+ in funds to float a foreign degree, and then has the audacity to say CMGs shouldnt be favoured for spots over IMGs and demand no more division of CMG vs IMG.

 

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2 hours ago, Edict said:

I think the real reason Canadian medical students may bash CSAs is not because of the education, its because of the quality of candidate they accept. No one doubts that local Australia medical schools aren't doing good teaching, but people believe that those with lower GPAs/MCAT scores were able to escape to get trained elsewhere and want to come back and take what many CMGs feel they deserve first dibs on because they had more competitive applications. Going to Melbourne is not going to make you a good medical student if you weren't as good a student to begin with. 

Ultimately, it is not always a training issue, it is simply an issue with skipping the line. 

The other issue as mentioned in other posts is the issue of cost. In essence, some CMGs are unhappy that Canadians who aren't as competitive applicants, but are wealthy enough to afford the tuition that Australian and Irish medical schools charge, want to essentially use their money, give it to a foreign country and skip the line ahead of Canadians who may had to re-apply and improve their apps to get a chance at. 

I mentioned geography in this thread. Depending on where you live or don't live, getting in can be reasonable or very difficult with identical applications. Willingness to improve your application & reapply, retake the MCAT etc. + luck also play a major role. And not every school is the same in its requirements either. The MCAT is a better indicator of a candidate's intelligence but some applicants get in without an MCAT score or with a mediocre one because of their good GPA. 

Anyway, I think going the IMG route is an absolutely terrible idea. You have to take a couple exams and blow them out of the park and still face poor odds of matching. If you can't kill those tests, odds are virtually 0. And the US match? You better have killer USMLE scores that drastically top the typical American candidate. US grads are a huge first priority in the US match. The small number of Canadian MDs and DOs are a close 2nd priority. Canadian IMGs are a distant last priority since they don't even have a visa status. It's just a terrible idea overall to go abroad. You should do your best to get into Canadian schools, and expand your options/probability by applying to MD & DO schools in the US. 

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Calling this thread derailed is now an understatement, but since I'm not a moderator, I don't have a duty or compulsion to keep it on track, so here are my 2 cents:

1. The annual IMG/CSA witch hunt is ultimately born out of fear, namely the fear of the remote-but-not-zero possibility that CMGs have of going unmatched. As a general rule of thumb, when things get tough people don't blame themselves, they blame someone or something else first. The residency spots set aside for non-Canadian grads is the first and most obvious target.

2. Matching as a CSA is a high risk/high reward endeavor. Everyone sees the reward part. Let's say that matching is analogous to crossing a river. Everyone sees the 20 who made it across. They don't see the other 80 who drowned, or the shark-infested water they tried to swim through. Everything is worked for. Nothing is free. This isn't "skipping the line"; it's going into an entirely different line with its own problems.

3. The quality of international medical schools can be debated, but it's all irrelevant. There are checks and balances. Everyone has to meet the same academic standard when applying for Canadian residency spots, and everyone has to interview and not look like a clown when doing so. Everyone then has to be chosen in a process that they have no direct control over.

4. It's true that the average successful IMG/CSA has above average financial resources, but historically so have most CMGs. This profession naturally tends to select for such a cohort.


Full disclosure: I am a CSA who matched and finished residency.

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5 hours ago, JohnGrisham said:

Lines of credit with cosigners in and of itself already puts you at middle class and above.  And most banks aren't giving the same amount in LOCs to IMGs as they are to CMGs(ironically, since CMGs dont need them really to the same extent).   And most schools IMGs attend, the LOC is not enough to cover the full cost of attendance.  

Flinders is 296k AUD tuition alone
USyd is 312K AUD tuition alone
UMelb is 364k AUD tuition alone
UQueensland is 336K AUD tuition alone

Knock off 5% and you have the CAD equivalent for the AUD.

SGU, ROSS = 50k+ USD per year 

RCSI = 336k CAD tuition alone; with the cheapest of the irish schools being 260k CAD tuition alone.
 

Sweet jesus. That's nuts. 

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2 hours ago, Intrepid86 said:

Calling this thread derailed is now an understatement, but since I'm not a moderator, I don't have a duty or compulsion to keep it on track, so here are my 2 cents:

1. The annual IMG/CSA witch hunt is ultimately born out of fear, namely the fear of the remote-but-not-zero possibility that CMGs have of going unmatched. As a general rule of thumb, when things get tough people don't blame themselves, they blame someone or something else first. The residency spots set aside for non-Canadian grads is the first and most obvious target.

2. Matching as a CSA is a high risk/high reward endeavor. Everyone sees the reward part. Let's say that matching is analogous to crossing a river. Everyone sees the 20 who made it across. They don't see the other 80 who drowned, or the shark-infested water they tried to swim through. Everything is worked for. Nothing is free. This isn't "skipping the line"; it's going into an entirely different line with its own problems.

3. The quality of international medical schools can be debated, but it's all irrelevant. There are checks and balances. Everyone has to meet the same academic standard when applying for Canadian residency spots, and everyone has to interview and not look like a clown when doing so. Everyone then has to be chosen in a process that they have no direct control over.

4. It's true that the average successful IMG/CSA has above average financial resources, but historically so have most CMGs. This profession naturally tends to select for such a cohort.


Full disclosure: I am a CSA who matched and finished residency.

Having worked with CSA and IMGs I find they also bring different perspectives and greater understanding of other medical systems and that the Canadian one isn’t the almighty best we are led to believe but have a greater understanding of how different systems have other positives that could be used in our current system to improve it. I also find many of the CSAs (Australia,UK,Irish) have above average interviewing and physical exam skills as well as excellent interpersonal skills and often more well rounded. Those schools have strict exams in all four years and very high criteria to pass each year. We also forget in Canada that our system was founded on the British/Irish system and at one time a good percentage of Canadian doctors were from those countries. If the UK system ranks higher than ours on many rankings..they must be doing something right. I think as said by Intrepid86 a lot of CMGs are fearful of not being placed which in our current climate is a concern. The CSA and IMGs have way more hurdles/exams that the CSAs don't appreciate and the CSA chances are so much lower of getting a spot. What is considered as a competitive specialty by CMGs would sound like awesome odds for an IMG.....i worry that the CMG student fear may start to become more of an attitude that if not careful comes across as entitlement or elitism towards IMGs and CSAs. It is interesting that when CSA and IMGs were able to compete for all spots second iteration in the past, many IMG/CSAs were earning spots that CMGs also tried for. So there must be qualities and skills and abilities that were deemed worthy to choose one over the other. At the end of the day people are all trying hard to work in their chosen field and shaming by CMGs has to stop.

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6 hours ago, medigeek said:

US grads are a huge first priority in the US match.

For those of us who feel like CaRMS shouldn't be reserving IMG spots when quite a few current year CMGs are not getting matched, this is in essence the problem. Most CMGs do not stand a realistic chance of matching to residency in any other country except our own because other countries are prioritizing their own grads before others. Yet there's the feeling that Canada doesn't offer the same level of prioritization for CMGs when there are dedicated IMG spots in the first iteration.

Going back to the main point of this thread though, good luck to everyone unmatched this round! I really hope the second iteration is kind to you or if you're waiting it out for next year. A friend of mine went unmatched and I'm just honestly stunned because they are one of the smartest, kindest, most genuine people I know and deserves to be a physician more than many other people I know in the field. If they can go unmatched... it's a terrifying thought.

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Interesting conversation about IMG's.

I am surprised that a lot of people on this thread think that the solution to the problem of CMG's going unmatched is to have more residency spots dedicated to CMG's at the expense of IMG spots. Fact is: there are as much residency spots for CMG's as there are graduates, so ideally everyone should be able to match. The problem is that there are not enough spots for everyone to match to their specialty/location of choice, which is natural. If everyone were to become ophthalmologists, who would become family doctors? If everyone were to go to U of T, who is going to take care of patients across the rest of Canada? The fact that there are not enough spots for everyone to match to their specialty/location of choice creates competition, which I personally view as something healthy rather than a problem that needs to be fixed. Unfortunately, with competition, some CMG's are bound to go unmatched.

I think the first step to address the problem of CMG's going unmatched is by research. I am not sure if this is already happening or not, but the AFMC should start gathering data from CMG's who went unmatched to try to gain a deeper understanding of why they went unmatched. Personally, I can only think of 2 ways a CMG can go unmatched: either someone applying to a highly competitive speciality/location with zero backup or someone whose performance is so poor that a program would rather have their position unfilled than to rank him/her. In both cases, I don't think the solution is more spots.

Now back to IMG's. There are 2 questions that I would like to address:

1. Are CMG's necessarily better than IMG's? It is hard to tell. IMG's come from all over the world and you simply cannot paint everyone who trained outside of the US & Canada with the same brush. Moreover, there are a lot of factors that go into determining one's competency level besides location of training. One thing is for sure though, the chances of matching to residency as an IMG are so slim that only the best of the best are selected. On the other hand, you can find CMG's who actually match to residency yet still end up failing the QE1 exam, and, as I previously mentioned, there are CMG's whose performance is so poor that they end up being unmatched. So the idea that all CMG's are gods and all IMG's are crap is not true.

2. Should CMG's be prioritized over IMG's when it comes to residency spots? In my opinion, yes, but not to the point where IMG's are excluded. It is important for CMG's to understand a couple of things about IMG's. First of all, IMG's are canadian citizens who have the same rights and responsibilities as any other canadian citizen (including the responsibility to pay taxes). You simply cannot have a CMG-only first iteration because that way you are completely excluding IMG's - who are canadian citizens - from certain specialties that typically have no leftover spots for the second iteration. You can't do that, you have to at least give IMG's the chance to compete.  The second thing that CMG's need to understand is that the Canadian healthcare system needs IMG's. According to recent statistics, 25% of the physician workforce in Canada are IMG's. Moreover, certain provinces rely heavily on IMG's e.g Saskatchewan where 53% of physicians are IMG's. And remember: there are as much CMG spots as grads, so IMG's are not really taking anything away from CMG's.

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22 minutes ago, SEAL said:

Fact is: there are as much residency spots for CMG's as there are graduates, so ideally everyone should be able to match.

I am not sure if this is already happening or not, but the AFMC should start gathering data from CMG's who went unmatched to try to gain a deeper understanding of why they went unmatched. Personally, I can only think of 2 ways a CMG can go unmatched: either someone applying to a highly competitive speciality/location with zero backup or someone whose performance is so poor that a program would rather have their position unfilled than to rank him/her. In both cases, I don't think the solution is more spots.

The total number of CMG spots compared to the total number of CMGs is indeed higher. However, this is not taking into consideration that many of the unfilled spots are in Quebec where French fluency is a requirement. According to a CFMS report, "when language differences in the number of available spots is accounted for, the ratio of anglophone positions to Anglophone-only applicants may actually drop to less than 0.986 spots for every one participant in the first iteration of the match." (pg. 4 on https://www.cfms.org/files/position-papers/agm_2017_support_unmatched.pdf

In regards to your second point, AFMC has already collected data on unmatched CMGs (https://afmc.ca/sites/default/files/documents/en/Publications/AFMC_reportreducingunmatchedcdnmg_en.pdf). Figure 5 (pg. 12) shows the data on unmatched CMGs and whether or not they were ranked by a program. Only about 30% of unmatched CMGs were not ranked by a single program. These individuals likely are the ones who had red flags and probably shouldn't have been allowed to finish medical school in the first place. I will agree that those who are not ranked by a single program are likely poor candidates in the first place, but the focus of the unmatched CMGs is not on these people. The focus is on the ~70% of unmatched CMGs who were ranked by some (and around 10% who were ranked by all programs) but those programs were filled before their rank. This highlights that if there were more CMG spots, those candidates would not have gone unmatched. You can also see from the data that very few unmatched CMGs did not rank a program that ranked them, so not matching because candidates were only willing to consider competitive specialties/locations with no backups is likely not as large of a contributor to why more and more CMGs are remaining unmatched as you seem to think.

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30 minutes ago, SEAL said:

The second thing that CMG's need to understand is that the Canadian healthcare system needs IMG's. According to recent statistics, 25% of the physician workforce in Canada are IMG's. Moreover, certain provinces rely heavily on IMG's e.g Saskatchewan where 53% of physicians are IMG's. And remember: there are as much CMG spots as grads, so IMG's are not really taking anything away from CMG's.

The canadian system, actually needs FMGs - true IMGs who trained in commonwealth countries  because often they are the ones who will actually work and practice rurally. Much of rural Canada is serviced by australian and south african GPs. We don't "need" CSAs aka Canadian IMGs, because the vast majority dont stay after their ROS is done, because why would they? Most CSAs are form big cities like Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver etc and want to return home. Most of the IMGs again in Sask, are FMGs who get licensed based on prior training, or re-do residency in FM. Then they end up staying often. Yes some move to big cities, naturally where diversity lies, but alot of FMGs do stay in smaller centres.   

 

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3 hours ago, xiphoid said:

For those of us who feel like CaRMS shouldn't be reserving IMG spots when quite a few current year CMGs are not getting matched, this is in essence the problem. Most CMGs do not stand a realistic chance of matching to residency in any other country except our own because other countries are prioritizing their own grads before others. Yet there's the feeling that Canada doesn't offer the same level of prioritization for CMGs when there are dedicated IMG spots in the first iteration.

Going back to the main point of this thread though, good luck to everyone unmatched this round! I really hope the second iteration is kind to you or if you're waiting it out for next year. A friend of mine went unmatched and I'm just honestly stunned because they are one of the smartest, kindest, most genuine people I know and deserves to be a physician more than many other people I know in the field. If they can go unmatched... it's a terrifying thought.

I wouldn't go that far. You can match in the states as a Canadian CMG. It's the IMG Canadians who have issues.

 

6 minutes ago, JohnGrisham said:

The canadian system, actually needs FMGs - true IMGs who trained in commonwealth countries  because often they are the ones who will actually work and practice rurally. Much of rural Canada is serviced by australian and south african GPs. We don't "need" CSAs aka Canadian IMGs, because the vast majority dont stay after their ROS is done, because why would they? Most CSAs are form big cities like Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver etc and want to return home. Most of the IMGs again in Sask, are FMGs who get licensed based on prior training, or re-do residency in FM. Then they end up staying often. Yes some move to big cities, naturally where diversity lies, but alot of FMGs do stay in smaller centres.   

 

 ROS is a joke anyway. There are so many ways around it + you can only not practice in very urban areas. 

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16 minutes ago, medigeek said:

I wouldn't go that far. You can match in the states as a Canadian CMG. It's the IMG Canadians who have issues.

Maybe @tere can chime in here, but CMGs used to take up quite a few residency spots in the US - that is, they matched quite well in NRMP, but at some point in the past little while, this dropped off and we only send ~10 max CMGs to the US each year. 

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2 minutes ago, la marzocco said:

Maybe @tere can chime in here, but CMGs used to take up quite a few residency spots in the US - that is, they matched quite well in NRMP, but at some point in the past little while, this dropped off and we only send ~10 max CMGs to the US each year. 

perhaps has something to do with the earlier CaRMS match than the US match in March, therefore taking you out of contention for the NRMP. By that time we are already in the second iteration.
I believe more CMGs need to start taking the Steps, especially if they prefer to apply to specialties. SON has been an issue though, unsure how many were allocated this year.

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8 minutes ago, vascular said:

perhaps has something to do with the earlier CaRMS match than the US match in March, therefore taking you out of contention for the NRMP. By that time we are already in the second iteration.
I believe more CMGs need to start taking the Steps, especially if they prefer to apply to specialties. SON has been an issue though, unsure how many were allocated this year.

Health Canada has done away with SoNs so there is actually no more quota or restriction on the front. One less barrier one could say.

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50 minutes ago, JohnGrisham said:

The canadian system, actually needs FMGs - true IMGs who trained in commonwealth countries  because often they are the ones who will actually work and practice rurally. Much of rural Canada is serviced by australian and south african GPs. We don't "need" CSAs aka Canadian IMGs, because the vast majority dont stay after their ROS is done, because why would they? Most CSAs are form big cities like Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver etc and want to return home. Most of the IMGs again in Sask, are FMGs who get licensed based on prior training, or re-do residency in FM. Then they end up staying often. Yes some move to big cities, naturally where diversity lies, but alot of FMGs do stay in smaller centres.   

 

As others mentioned, the ROS is very liberal, as least in Ontario. 

There are more and more IMGs who worked around their ROS and end up working in academic hospitals, or work close to DT Toronto, Vancouver etc

The unmatched CMGs would be more than happy to take the ROS positions in rural community. I don't think having IMGS signing a ROS would solve the issue of lack of physicians in rural community, as the majority of IMGS matched to Canada are CSAs, who would return to work in urban area after their ROS is finished.

I guess that I am very opinated, as Canada is the only country who doesn't advocate for its own medical trainnees, more things need to be done for our unmatched CMGs!

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19 minutes ago, la marzocco said:

Health Canada has done away with SoNs so there is actually no more quota or restriction on the front. One less barrier one could say.

This is great, I wasn't aware

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1 hour ago, xiphoid said:

The total number of CMG spots compared to the total number of CMGs is indeed higher. However, this is not taking into consideration that many of the unfilled spots are in Quebec where French fluency is a requirement. According to a CFMS report, "when language differences in the number of available spots is accounted for, the ratio of anglophone positions to Anglophone-only applicants may actually drop to less than 0.986 spots for every one participant in the first iteration of the match." (pg. 4 on https://www.cfms.org/files/position-papers/agm_2017_support_unmatched.pdf

In regards to your second point, AFMC has already collected data on unmatched CMGs (https://afmc.ca/sites/default/files/documents/en/Publications/AFMC_reportreducingunmatchedcdnmg_en.pdf). Figure 5 (pg. 12) shows the data on unmatched CMGs and whether or not they were ranked by a program. Only about 30% of unmatched CMGs were not ranked by a single program. These individuals likely are the ones who had red flags and probably shouldn't have been allowed to finish medical school in the first place. I will agree that those who are not ranked by a single program are likely poor candidates in the first place, but the focus of the unmatched CMGs is not on these people. The focus is on the ~70% of unmatched CMGs who were ranked by some (and around 10% who were ranked by all programs) but those programs were filled before their rank. This highlights that if there were more CMG spots, those candidates would not have gone unmatched. You can also see from the data that very few unmatched CMGs did not rank a program that ranked them, so not matching because candidates were only willing to consider competitive specialties/locations with no backups is likely not as large of a contributor to why more and more CMGs are remaining unmatched as you seem to think.

Thank you for bringing these important statistics to light.

You mentioned that very few unmatched CMG's did not rank a program that ranked them, but the data doesn't show whether those candidates applied broadly to begin with or not.

You also mentioned that if there were more CMG spots, some CMG candidates would not have gone unmatched. I can see that this is true. I wonder, however, if it would be fair to increase the number of CMG spots at the expense of IMG spots. One could argue that a hardworking IMG who can succeed in a match where the success rate of IMG's is only 10% is more deserving of a spot than a CMG who had all the resources that a canadian medical school could offer yet still ended up being ranked so low to not make it in a match where the success rate of CMG's is nearly 95%.

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37 minutes ago, LittleDaisy said:

As others mentioned, the ROS is very liberal, as least in Ontario. 

There are more and more IMGs who worked around their ROS and end up working in academic hospitals, or work close to DT Toronto, Vancouver etc

The unmatched CMGs would be more than happy to take the ROS positions in rural community. I don't think having IMGS signing a ROS would solve the issue of lack of physicians in rural community, as the majority of IMGS matched to Canada are CSAs, who would return to work in urban area after their ROS is finished.

I guess that I am very opinated, as Canada is the only country who doesn't advocate for its own medical trainnees, more things need to be done for our unmatched CMGs!

ROS's do shit all to solve rural recruitment issues long term in truly rural areas. People wiggle out of the ROS or leave the rural area as soon  as it is up. You just end up with a revolving door. 

The issue with rural recruitment is most rural places are dying towns with little on the go to do in your downtime. People (not just physicians) just don't want to be there. I should know, I'm a rural surgical specialist and I HATE working in this place. 

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1 hour ago, NLengr said:

ROS's do shit all to solve rural recruitment issues long term in truly rural areas. People wiggle out of the ROS or leave the rural area as soon  as it is up. You just end up with a revolving door. 

The issue with rural recruitment is most rural places are dying towns with little on the go to do in your downtime. People (not just physicians) just don't want to be there. I should know, I'm a rural surgical specialist and I HATE working in this place. 

yup i know a buncha people that lawyered up and got outta  ROS without having to pay that crazy price tag if u break the contract

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3 hours ago, medigeek said:

I wouldn't go that far. You can match in the states as a Canadian CMG. It's the IMG Canadians who have issues.

 

 ROS is a joke anyway. There are so many ways around it + you can only not practice in very urban areas. 

Such as? (i'm actually interested what lengths people would go to haha)

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5 hours ago, la marzocco said:

Health Canada has done away with SoNs so there is actually no more quota or restriction on the front. One less barrier one could say.

4 hours ago, vascular said:

This is great, I wasn't aware

From what I understand, Health Canada got rid of providing SoNs depending on the specialty that Canadians were pursuing in the US. Statement of Needs themselves however are still needed to pursue residency in the US (https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-care-system/health-human-resources/statements-need-postgraduate-medical-training-united-states.html). Basically, whereas in the past no Canadian was ever allowed to pursue a neurosurgery residency in the US for example (because it was not on the approved list of specialties that Health Canada would provide a SoN for), now it is just first come first serve regardless of what specialty someone matched into. There might still a limited number?

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