Dear Canadian Dental students about back door dental school

[excantoaus]

Dear Canadian Dental students,

 

 

 

This email will make sure that you are aware of the issues/problems about the recent accreditation by Canadian Dental Association

 

 

 

The Canadian Dental Association recently made an agreement with Australian Dental Association to recognize(accredit) each other’s dental graduates. This means that dental school graduates from Australian Dental School will be treated equally as dental graduate from Canadian Dental School (CDS) for licensing(license to practice dentistry) in Canada. Thus graduates from Australian Dental Schools (ADS) don’t have to go through the rigorous qualifying programs or sets of exams that all foreign dental graduates have to pass in order to practice in Canada.

 

 

 

Currently there are about 9 dental schools in Australia and most Australian dental schools have international students, mostly Canadians. For example, at University of Sydney, dental school has about 10-15 international students in EACH year and more than 95% of them are Canadians. This means that there will be about 10 Canadian dental graduates from University of Sydney by the end of 2010. And they will be treated equally like dental graduates from Canadian dental school for licensing in Canada. The number of Canadian graduate of Australian Dental school expected to be higher since there are 8 more dental schools that has Canadians.

 

 

 

The problems arises when;

 

 

 

1) the quality of Canadian dental graduates from ADS (Australian Dental School) are inferior to the graduates from Canadian Dental School (CDS). For example, average undergraduate GPA (for entrance to dental school) of Canadian dental graduates from ADS are sub 3.0 (out of 4.0), which is much lower than the average GPA of dental students from CDS. (public health threat)

 

2) the movement of dentist is ONE-WAY.(From Australia to Canada) Most dentists from ADS or CDS will have problems of going to other countries to practice because of the immigration issues (even if their education is accredited) However, Canadian dental graduates from ADS will have NO Problem of practicing the dentistry in Canada since they are CANADIANS and their education is accredited by the Canadian Dental association. There is NO Australian Dental students in CDS who will take advantage of this agreement since there’s not many Australians in CDS.

 

 

 

If you are in doubt of #1 above, ask Canadian dental graduates from ADS to present their Canadian transcripts ( yes, they went to Canadian undergraduate schools. They had low GPA and couldn’t get into Canadian Dental schools) then you will see what I mean.

 

 

 

If you are in doubt of #2 above, do the research about the student composition of each dental schools in Australia and Canada.

 

 

 

Most Canadian dental graduates from ADS will take advantage of this agreement since most of them wants to come back to Canada. This is equal to the creation of new Dental schools in Canada (since these Australian dental school graduates can be licensed like Canadian dental school graduates) with much lower entrance GPA and DAT score.

 

 

 

I’m worried that foreign dental school graduates(Australia) get licensed to practice in Canada without going through the proper qualifying programs or exams. I know that Canada has an agreement with USA dental schools. However, most USA dental student don’t have sub-3.0 GPA to get into dental schools and USA dental students are there to stay and practice. It’s not like the back-door schools like the ones in Australia Dental Schools where rejects from Canadian dental schools gets in. And who knows that Canadian Dental schools will accredit more dental schools around the world like UK dental schools where there are some Canadians and Indian dental schools where graduates are already in Canada.

 

 

 

Please see attached(Page 4) (http://www.cda-adc.ca/cdacweb/_files/constituency_report_2009.pdf) for the agreement between Canadian Dental Association and Australian Dental Association.

[Teamplayer7]

2011 admission is complete. You will not find anyone with a GPA lower then 3.4 that was admitted and next year when the word is out, it will even be more difficult to get accepted.

[Dr Pepper]

It may go up, but how much can it go up by? It will still be easier than here I'm sure. The GPA requirements for both Australian and US dental schools seem to remain at much lower range than the Canadian dental schools still. Now, I'm not saying the agreement is bad, it definitely gives more flexibility for both Canadians and Australians to practice where they want. But I cannot help to think that this will probably be a one way movement of dentists...

 

I wonder why US hasn't agreed with Australia but Canada did...lol

[riazo]

interesting take on the issue...just wondering, are you writing this email, or did you receive this email from someone else?

 

With regards to the statement that Aus Dent schools are inferior to Can Dent schools, I'm wondering if this is solely based on the admission average of the accepted students? If it is, then that is a very naive statement. Think about what really determines the quality of a dental school graduate. Is it the skills and knowledge that one has when they enter dental school OR is it the skills and knowledge one has when they graduate from dental school? I would argue that to determine the quality of education of any school, you look at how competent the student is at graduation. In Canada, this is determined by the student's ability to pass the NDEB exam. This exam determines the minimum competency a student must have prior to entering practice in Canada. Guess what..Aus Dent students ALSO have to pass this exam if they want to practice in Canada! So both Aus and Can students have to have meet the national standards prior to practice. So how is it that Aus students would be a greater concern to the health of patients than Can students?

 

The other reason why Aus grads do not have to write the same exams as other internationally trained dentists is because the Commission of Dental Accreditation of Canada (CDAC) agrees that Aus dental schools are equivalent in training as Canadian dental schools. The CDAC observed the accreditation process done by the Australian Dental Council, and evaluated not only the process, but the standards to which the Aus Dent council requires of dental schools. It was the same, perhaps even to a higher standard. So why should Aus students be put through more exams, when they are graduating from schools that have the same standard as Canada?

 

I think people shouldn't consider Aus Dent schools as a "backdoor" means of practicing in Canada, but rather an "ALTERNATIVE" means to practicing. I agree that the majority of Canadian students in Australia did not get accepted in Canada, but that does not mean they are a 'public health concern'. In fact, Australian dental schools are first class universities, and the students in the program are held to a very high standard. Grads of Aus schools have been providing excellent care to patients in Australia.

 

I agree that admission averages are going to increase, and yes they already have. It was extremely difficult to gain admission this year at Univ of Sydney, or Univ of Melbourne. However, as I said previously, admission average is not an indication of the quality of dental graduates. I can understand how pre-dent/pre-med students are so concerned about admission averages (I too was like that , but once you enter dental school, your perspective changes, and you realise that the quality of the education you receive is determined by your competency as a clinician when you graduate. And I can safely say, Aus graduates are just as competent as Can graduates.

 

I wrote this long reply, because I think people need to look at this new agreement as a positive move. It allows for greater flexibility in where one can practice, allows pre-dent students an alternative to Can and US schools, as well as addresses the shortage of dentists in BOTH countries by allowing in competent dentists who are of an equal standard.

[riazo]

you ask why the US did not agree with this agreement and Canada did. This is because the request to establish an agreement came from the National dental examining board of canada (NDEB) and NOT from the US or Aus boards/councils.

 

http://www.ndeb.ca/en/about/index.htm

You can read about it under the certification portion.

 

I have heard that the US is now considering establishing the same agreement. Can't confirm that, but I wouldn't be surprised if they do so in the next few years.

[excantoaus]

 

I think people shouldn't consider Aus Dent schools as a "backdoor" means of practicing in Canada, but rather an "ALTERNATIVE" means to practicing. I agree that the majority(close to 100%) of Canadian students in Australia did not get accepted in Canada, but that does not mean they are a 'public health concern'. In fact, Australian dental schools are first class universities, and the students in the program are held to a very high standard. Grads of Aus schools have been providing excellent care to patients in Australia.

 

agree...........

[riazo]

curious to know, excantoaus, r u currently studying dentistry anywhere? or are you a pre-dent?

 

everyone understands that every year a large number of QUALIFIED applicants are rejected from dental schools in Canada. Unfortunately Canada just doesn't have enough spots for these candidates. Many of these qualified applicants pursue schools in the US. NOW, they have the option of Aus schools, which are just as good as US or Can schools. still don't see how this should be of any concern. I urge candidates to apply to Aus schools. It is not a walk in the park. It is very competitive. Ask those students who applied to USyd and UMelb this year.

 

Also, incase people didnt know, the agreement ONLY applies to those who have graduated after March 2010. So if you want to look at the possible grads who will be looking at coming back to Canada, look at those who graduate after this date.

 

Many of my classmates decided to pursue Aus schools over US schools due to the costs. It is cheaper to study here than many US schools. (Check out NYU's tuition/living costs. They accept a lot of international students). Not to mention the weather, culture, overseas experience, and the ability to study at the beach

 

(btw...if you are going to quote me, I'd appreciate it if you did not make changes to what I said, and then say that you agree..I see that you are new to the forums, so perhaps maybe I'm spending too much time replying to you..haha..but just want to make sure pre-dent students get the right information)

[Dr Pepper]

I agree that a lot of qualified applicants who certainly can be a great dentist are rejected from Canadian dental schools. I also think it's great that those who couldn't make it have a second option ie studying in Australia. What I don't understand is why we need more dentists than we already have? lol We certainly have enough...and if we don't have enough, why don't we just increase the number of seats for Canadian dental schools? I think the agreement between Canada and US is okay because the movement of dentists to either country is roughly equal if I remember correctly. But the agreement between Australia and Canada will probably create one way movement of dentists. I think this may be a problem, and is probably the one that OP was suggesting. I hope I don't sound rude but don't you think it's also kind of "unfair" for some of us who studied way harder in undergrad...? haha =P We all know the difference between a 3.9 and a 3.3 is hugeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...

[riazo]

your reward for studying harder in undergrad is being able to go to a school that is close to home. The consequence of not getting into a canadian school (whether it has to do with GPA/DAT/Interview) is that you have to live away from home, and go into a heavy debt load at graduation (usually > $200,000).

 

I don't know if we do have enough dentists. I think it varies depending on which area of the country you are talking about. Yea there will probably be a one-way movement initially, but I would expect it will level out as Aus will start to implement more incentives for Canadian dentists to practice in Aus. There is a shortage in Aus for dentists, and they have the same intentions with this agreement as Canada does; address the shortage by allowing in dentists who are equally qualified. This eliminates the need to allow in dentists from other countries, who may not be as qualified.

[excantoaus]

Aussie Dental school applicants only need a high school diploma to get into most Aussie Dental Schools.(except Usyd and melbourn)

 

I strongly encourage Canadian high school graduates to apply to Aussie Dental Schools.(skip crazy Canadian Undergrad study)

 

If you have good high school GPA, why not go to dental school right after high school (Aussie dental schools) and come back to CANADA and practice dentistry.

 

You will be way younger than other dentists in Canada. (Remember you didn't do your undergraduate,,,,,…it'll save your energy and time)…Trust me…University is way harder than high school….

[Neverstop DDS]

I don't think anyone would agree that Can dent >>> American/Aussie dent schools if you ask people outside Canada/ or even to Canadians who don't attend Canadian d-school.

 

Canadian d-schools may require higher GPA, but that doesn't mean Canadian d-schools are superior to American/Aussie d-schools.

 

If that's the case, then U of Saskachewan (or any C-d schools) d-school is better than Harvard d-school because they have higher entering GPA

[The Articulator]

Dear Canadian Dental students,

 

 

 

This email will make sure that you are aware of the issues/problems about the recent accreditation by Canadian Dental Association

 

 

 

The Canadian Dental Association recently made an agreement with Australian Dental Association to recognize(accredit) each other’s dental graduates. This means that dental school graduates from Australian Dental School will be treated equally as dental graduate from Canadian Dental School (CDS) for licensing(license to practice dentistry) in Canada. Thus graduates from Australian Dental Schools (ADS) don’t have to go through the rigorous qualifying programs or sets of exams that all foreign dental graduates have to pass in order to practice in Canada.

 

 

 

Currently there are about 9 dental schools in Australia and most Australian dental schools have international students, mostly Canadians. For example, at University of Sydney, dental school has about 10-15 international students in EACH year and more than 95% of them are Canadians. This means that there will be about 10 Canadian dental graduates from University of Sydney by the end of 2010. And they will be treated equally like dental graduates from Canadian dental school for licensing in Canada. The number of Canadian graduate of Australian Dental school expected to be higher since there are 8 more dental schools that has Canadians.

 

 

 

The problems arises when;

 

 

 

1) the quality of Canadian dental graduates from ADS (Australian Dental School) are inferior to the graduates from Canadian Dental School (CDS). For example, average undergraduate GPA (for entrance to dental school) of Canadian dental graduates from ADS are sub 3.0 (out of 4.0), which is much lower than the average GPA of dental students from CDS. (public health threat)

 

2) the movement of dentist is ONE-WAY.(From Australia to Canada) Most dentists from ADS or CDS will have problems of going to other countries to practice because of the immigration issues (even if their education is accredited) However, Canadian dental graduates from ADS will have NO Problem of practicing the dentistry in Canada since they are CANADIANS and their education is accredited by the Canadian Dental association. There is NO Australian Dental students in CDS who will take advantage of this agreement since there’s not many Australians in CDS.

 

 

 

If you are in doubt of #1 above, ask Canadian dental graduates from ADS to present their Canadian transcripts ( yes, they went to Canadian undergraduate schools. They had low GPA and couldn’t get into Canadian Dental schools) then you will see what I mean.

 

 

 

If you are in doubt of #2 above, do the research about the student composition of each dental schools in Australia and Canada.

 

 

 

Most Canadian dental graduates from ADS will take advantage of this agreement since most of them wants to come back to Canada. This is equal to the creation of new Dental schools in Canada (since these Australian dental school graduates can be licensed like Canadian dental school graduates) with much lower entrance GPA and DAT score.

 

 

 

I’m worried that foreign dental school graduates(Australia) get licensed to practice in Canada without going through the proper qualifying programs or exams. I know that Canada has an agreement with USA dental schools. However, most USA dental student don’t have sub-3.0 GPA to get into dental schools and USA dental students are there to stay and practice. It’s not like the back-door schools like the ones in Australia Dental Schools where rejects from Canadian dental schools gets in. And who knows that Canadian Dental schools will accredit more dental schools around the world like UK dental schools where there are some Canadians and Indian dental schools where graduates are already in Canada.

 

 

 

Please see attached(Page 4) (http://www.cda-adc.ca/cdacweb/_files/constituency_report_2009.pdf) for the agreement between Canadian Dental Association and Australian Dental Association.

 

 

I got into a Sidney with a 3.6 average from a Canadian school, and I also was accepted in the United States, and I am attending the University of sydney. Check the world ranking of the University of sydney and Melbourne, they are number 36. Your statement is flagrant ignorant generalization, Schools in Australia are not some offshore sanctuary for people with low GPAs like medical schools on those tiny islands in the Caribbean.

[SpringDrive]

I got into a Sidney with a 3.6 average from a Canadian school, and I also was accepted in the United States, and I am attending the University of sydney. Check the world ranking of the University of sydney and Melbourne, they are number 36. Your statement is flagrant ignorant generalization, Schools in Australia are not some offshore sanctuary for people with low GPAs like medical schools on those tiny islands in the Caribbean.

 

Actually they are. Who cares what the world rankings are, we're talking just the dental school. A 3.6 won't even get you an interview in Canada and yet you got accepted in Australia, seems pretty clear to me.

[riazo]

Actually they are. Who cares what the world rankings are, we're talking just the dental school. A 3.6 won't even get you an interview in Canada and yet you got accepted in Australia, seems pretty clear to me.

 

with that logic, the US is also a sanctuary for people with low GPA's.

 

once again, I bring up the argument that it is the quality of the graduates of a dental school that determines how good a school is, not the admission average. Dental schools in Australia, just like in Canada and US, graduate competent and proficient dentists. In the end, that is all that matters to the public.

[Swollof]

Interesting thread...

 

Excantoaus, if I'm deciphering your name correctly (Ex-can-to-aus), are you a Canadian who once studied dentistry in Australia? Are you currently a dentist?

 

Also, I hear differing opinions regarding a shortage of dentists in Canada. It seems to me that the major Canadian cities (Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal etc.) are saturated with too many dentists. However, there is a scarcity of dentists in the rural parts of Canada.

 

I think it must be for this reason that the CDA has recently signed this reciprocity agreement with Australia as well as the introduction of the equivalency process which all foreign trained dentists can now opt to take. Otherwise, Canadian dental schools would have added more places for dental students, but I guess that would take several years and a lot of money.

 

If there is a sudden influx of dentists, I suppose that eventually new dentists will be forced to start practicing in rural areas. But, who knows, right? I mean, they could just start offering better incentives for dentists to practice in underserved areas.

[excantoaus]

...3.6 average from a Canadian school, ....

 

oh...come on,.....

[Neverstop DDS]

oh...come on,.....

 

This guy/girl is so funny

[Neverstop DDS]

I got into a Sidney with a 3.6 average from a Canadian school, and I also was accepted in the United States, and I am attending the University of sydney. Check the world ranking of the University of sydney and Melbourne, they are number 36. Your statement is flagrant ignorant generalization, Schools in Australia are not some offshore sanctuary for people with low GPAs like medical schools on those tiny islands in the Caribbean.

 

Why did you choose USyd over a school in the States (and what school in the States?) BTW that world ranking is pretty useless... no one takes it seriously.

[picopiko]

It looks like one of the downsides Australian grads will have when practicing in Canada is how Canadian grads look down upon Australian grads. (From what i can sense in this thread.. o_o)

[The Articulator]

Why did you choose USyd over a school in the States (and what school in the States?) BTW that world ranking is pretty useless... no one takes it seriously.

 

Accepted at Nova South Eastern University, and also University of Oklahoma

[dentss]

although the Australian option is a good alternative, theres another thing ppl need to keep in mind before taking the leap. As of now there is no accreditation agreement between US and Australian schools, even though work is being done to achieve that. If you wish to specialize after graduation from an australian school, and practice in north america, your only option to do so would be in Canada where spots are very few. until the US signs an agreement you will not be able to specialize in the US, where there are many more specialty spots.

[riazo]

actually you can specialize in the US as an Australian grad. There are currently several programs in the US that will allow international dentists to apply. In fact, this was a common route for Aus grads to come back to Canada. They would get accepted into a specialty program, and then would be able to gain a license in Canada to practice for that specialty only.

 

I know of a Sydney grad who is doing his endo in Boston, and is going to return to BC afterwards. He will only have a license to practice endo in BC.

 

A reciprocal agreement between Aus and US is not required to enter into a specialty program. The requirements are set by the individual programs. The agreement is only required for giving you a license to practice.

[super_d]

I hope I don't sound rude but don't you think it's also kind of "unfair" for some of us who studied way harder in undergrad...? haha =P We all know the difference between a 3.9 and a 3.3 is hugeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...

 

Do you honestly think that getting a gpa of 3.9 in your undergrad will make you a way better dentist than someone with a 3.3 or even a 3.0. Your undergrad has nothing to do with the actual practice of dentistry. Once you get into dental school everyone is on a level playing field. There is also a good chance that someone with a 3.0 gpa may make a better dentist that someone with a 3.9. Dentistry isn't just about book smarts, its about using the practical skills you learn in dental school, not your undergrad, and someone with a lower gpa may excel in this area. I think that this is a problem with the admission process in Canada and that Canadian school are missing out on a large number of applicants who would make amazing dentists and Australia is lucky to get these student. I'm NOT saying that grades are not important, but that book smarts don't necessarily translate into good dentistry. And if you were to check out my previous post I did only have a 3.1 my first year. However, i did quit playing varsity hockey and currently have around a 3.7 after my first set of mid terms.

[Dr Pepper]

Do you honestly think that getting a gpa of 3.9 in your undergrad will make you a way better dentist than someone with a 3.3 or even a 3.0. Your undergrad has nothing to do with the actual practice of dentistry. Once you get into dental school everyone is on a level playing field. There is also a good chance that someone with a 3.0 gpa may make a better dentist that someone with a 3.9. Dentistry isn't just about book smarts, its about using the practical skills you learn in dental school, not your undergrad, and someone with a lower gpa may excel in this area. I think that this is a problem with the admission process in Canada and that Canadian school are missing out on a large number of applicants who would make amazing dentists and Australia is lucky to get these student. I'm NOT saying that grades are not important, but that book smarts don't necessarily translate into good dentistry. And if you were to check out my previous post I did only have a 3.1 my first year. However, i did quit playing varsity hockey and currently have around a 3.7 after my first set of mid terms.

 

Actually, yes! I'd trust a dentist who had a 3.9 average more than some dentist who had a 3.3 in his/her undergrad. Dentists are more than just someone who looks into your mouth and do fillings. They are health care practitioners who has the ability to diagnose variety of abnormalities in a patient's oral cavity, requiring vast knowledge of the maxillofacial area as well as the rest of the body. One has to know not only how to perform certain procedures but when to do those procedures depending on the type of patient you are dealing with and what possible side effects there are, etc! One of the objective way to measure your ability to learn and retain theoretical knowledge is by looking at one's GPA right? And yes, I think a 3.9 and a 3.3 is a big difference! As a patient, if I could, I'd choose the dentist with a 3.9 GPA over the one with 3.3 GPA. Since you don't seem to mind, you can go to the one with 3.3 GPA. lol alright, I kinda know what you are trying to get at, but I'm willing to bet that in most cases, higher GPA does make you a better dentist than a lower GPA. It does not make sense to believe that having a lower GPA will make you a better dentist right? So GPA is important! and if Australian and US schools' GPA requirements were even remotely close to that of Canadian schools, this kind of debate wouldn't have started. We are talking not 3.9vs3.8 but rather 3.9 vs 3.0-3.6!

 

Quality of education across different dental schools is probably similar hence the accreditation status, but not the competitiveness. Simply, Canadian dental schools are much more competitive than most US or Australian dental schools. This is a fact. For those of you taking my words offensive, then get accepted to both Canadian and US/Australian dental school and choose the latter. Then you will have proven me wrong.

[Ostracized]

I'm not certain why anyone would care about the Australian route at this point, with the new equivalency process for foreign-trained dentists. I'm sure somewhere in the world there are dental schools that are much easier to get into AND much cheaper AND provide a poorer education. Granted, not all of those who try will get in, but consider that India alone graduates 23,000 dentists per year. How many dentists from developing countries might be interested in working in Canada?