Opening the flood gates: Foreign dentists can challenge the boards in 2011

[bdsdent]

I'm not sure what you are talking about. From 2011 to 2012 the number of equivilency licenses jumped from 44 to 127. How high will it be in 2013? 200? And the year after? Lets not forget also many dozen dentists coming from US schools and several dozen more coming from Australia/NZ/Ireland.

 

I have no problem with FTDs - my experience with my IDAPP class members was quite positive. The ones who I spoke to about the equivilency process were rather bitter about it - since they were the ones paying $100,000+ and spending 2.5 years getting their license. The equivilency process came in after they had started.

 

That said, if we are going to have this process, there should be a limit on the number of graduates, and currently there is not. We have a limit on the number of dental school grads, on the number of qualifying program grads, so why not a limit on this process? Set a reasonable number at only the top X number of applicants pass.

 

Lastly, I am concerned because no three-day test can accurately assess if someone is a good dentist. The fundamental knowledge test has a question bank that has been answered so it only really comes down to memorization of the questions. The hands-on test is with manniquins and fake teeth. There is no endo, no prostho, no surgery. These tests only test a very very small amount of what it is to be a dentist. So I would ask - what was wrong with the qualifying programs? They existed to license FTDs and they ensured that these grads were properly trained to Canadian standards.

 

Yes the number doubled because, as I said earlier, the shift effect from IDP to the equivalency as there is no accurate data on the ppl remaining in IDP despite this process in 2012.

 

Yes there should be a cap on the equivalency. But I honestly, believe there is an internal cap that is not advertised so as not to loose potential applicants money.

 

Well, Don't you have lecture notes, adjunctive means of study,...etc for own school tests... NO test is fool proof, and for the bad ones that fall through that filter. The workplace will root them out. And most applicants to the tests take hands on courses.

 

Yes the clinical exams should include, in my opinion, endo, surgery..etc on live patients. You could even ask the participants to provide their own patients and have them consent the process. This happens in the US by the way; in regional test exams

 

There is nothing wrong with the IDP. As there is nothing wrong with the idea of the equivalency process. And now both are available. Allow me to remind you MOST other countries accept a series of exams to equate a FTD to locals; UK, NZ, AUS, Germany,....etc. Maybe a couple European countries require you to regain an academic degree from their schools but that I believe is due to the fact they teach science and medicine in their own language.

 

So I ask- what is wrong with the notion of direct equation of FTDs as being done in most other countries?

 

Well, I know of many FTDs who worked hard all their life to get decent dental education, graduated within the top of their class and then they are asked to repeat 3rd and 4rth year. They are bitter too. The point is; no one will be ever satisfied and now you have both option. So whats wrong with that, improve the examination process if you want but don't shut it down.

 

Cheers

[donnadee]

I'm not sure what you are talking about. From 2011 to 2012 the number of equivilency licenses jumped from 44 to 127. How high will it be in 2013? 200? And the year after? Lets not forget also many dozen dentists coming from US schools and several dozen more coming from Australia/NZ/Ireland.

 

I have no problem with FTDs - my experience with my IDAPP class members was quite positive. The ones who I spoke to about the equivilency process were rather bitter about it - since they were the ones paying $100,000+ and spending 2.5 years getting their license. The equivilency process came in after they had started.

 

That said, if we are going to have this process, there should be a limit on the number of graduates, and currently there is not. We have a limit on the number of dental school grads, on the number of qualifying program grads, so why not a limit on this process? Set a reasonable number at only the top X number of applicants pass.

 

Lastly, I am concerned because no three-day test can accurately assess if someone is a good dentist. The fundamental knowledge test has a question bank that has been answered so it only really comes down to memorization of the questions. The hands-on test is with manniquins and fake teeth. There is no endo, no prostho, no surgery. These tests only test a very very small amount of what it is to be a dentist. So I would ask - what was wrong with the qualifying programs? They existed to license FTDs and they ensured that these grads were properly trained to Canadian standards.

 

this!

i agree with ostracized on this..the equivalency tests are no substitute for the 2yr program...im surprised by how these equivalency tests came into being because of govt. grant of $790,000...find it sad that the grant is supporting a pathway where fewer skills (one could argue that the tests should only allow for licensing limits to resto dentistry theoretically since other aspects are not being clinically evaluated) are being evaluated

[bdsdent]

this!

i agree with ostracized on this..the equivalency tests are no substitute for the 2yr program...im surprised by how these equivalency tests came into being because of govt. grant of $790,000...find it sad that the grant is supporting a pathway where fewer skills (one could argue that the tests should only allow for licensing limits to resto dentistry theoretically since other aspects are not being clinically evaluated) are being evaluated

 

one could argue that you should include those clinical aspects on live pts in the exams!! Please read the post that I just wrote.

 

Cheers

[MCATwannabe]

At some point, they will start decreasing the number of dental graduates, just not sure why they haven't stepped in yet. This information is coming from my orthodontist who graduated from UofT's DDS in the early 1970's. She told me during that time, they were graduating way too many dentists, and subsequently halved the number of graduates (if someone can verify this or prove me wrong, please do. i.e. count the number of graduates in the photos hanging in the dental building). Seems like the people higher up have trouble keeping up with the trends, creating a cycle which includes oversupply. Fun times ahead...

 

I can attest to this. I just counted the number of graduates at Western today. It went from 54 to mid 30s ( from 70s to 80s) then went up again.

I'm not sure they will do that again though...

[UWOStudent89]

So I ask- what is wrong with the notion of direct equation of FTDs as being done in most other countries?

 

when making statements like this, you have to specify which countries are doing it. Is the States doing it??

[bdsdent]

when making statements like this, you have to specify which countries are doing it. Is the States doing it??

 

Just about every other country in the WORLD except US and Canada.. and a couple of European countries but that would be mainly due to the fact that they teach medicine and dentistry in their own language so they can't really equate a FTD to a local as the FTD won't be able to be fully integrated in the local dental and continuing education community yet despite of that, countries like Germany for example, if you can pass a couple of tests (dental tests) given in the German language, you get a license. Hell, even passing dental german tests is a new thing. Before that, an FTD had to spent time working under supervision then he would be given an unrestricted license based on the recommendation of the supervisor. The shift towards examination is a couple of years old.

[virtual reality]

My five cents

 

In my opinion, in order for the equivalency process to be fair and make a difference for Canadians:

 

The exam process should cover all aspects of dentistry and should have a clinical part where the examinees provide their own patients.

 

The number of licenses granted through this process should be capped at 50 licenses a year. Those who don’t make it should be allowed to try again the following year.

 

Applicants shouldn’t be allowed to write the exams UNLESS they are Canadian citizens or permanent residents.

 

Successful Candidates are granted a restricted license to practice in remote and underserved areas for one year before they can relocate to urban centers. This will help them gain Canadian experience and help ease shortage of dentists in those areas.

[bdsdent]

My five cents

 

In my opinion, in order for the equivalency process to be fair and make a difference for Canadians:

 

The exam process should cover all aspects of dentistry and should have a clinical part where the examinees provide their own patients.

 

The number of licenses granted through this process should be capped at 50 licenses a year. Those who don’t make it should be allowed to try again the following year.

 

Applicants shouldn’t be allowed to write the exams UNLESS they are Canadian citizens or permanent residents.

 

Successful Candidates are granted a restricted license to practice in remote and underserved areas for one year before they can relocate to urban centers. This will help them gain Canadian experience and help ease shortage of dentists in those areas.

 

I agree and that's what I am trying to say here.

 

And all the talk about the flood gates being opened and the profession being ruined and dentists starving; is hyperbolic, blown out of proportion and mostly coming from undergrads who wants everything perfect when they graduate which sooner or later they will realize that they will have to make their own careers with out blaming others.

 

And the predetermined belief that only regaining a local degree is the right way to go shows the person's lack of knowledge about dentistry in any other part of the world except north america, and, in my opinion, a great deal of arrogance and prejudice.

 

+1

[virtual reality]

Without those amendments, the equivalency process is not sustainable and will fail.

 

I don't think foreign-trained dentists who are still challenging the exams will agree to those amendments. Some of them probably think they should get their dental license with their landed documents. Those who passed the exams might agree to some of them.

 

Therefore, I believe Canadian-trained dentists are the ones who would stand up and demand that such amendments be made as soon as possible.

[rommel]

Either way ... don't they need work visas to work here?.. .They wont get jobs that easily especially if theyre stealing Canadian spots.

[MCATwannabe]

Either way ... don't they need work visas to work here?.. .They wont get jobs that easily especially if theyre stealing Canadian spots.

 

Lol honestly, I'de be more concerned with Dental Hygienists being able do restorations and soon prescribing these days (Legislation has been passed, and regulations are in the works). A couple hundred dentists won't kill many jobs. Thousands of hygienists graduating from 20 school in Ontario alone, with increasing powers probably will. No offence, but I'm not sure 6 months of extra work after graduation makes anyone capable of restoring teeth. I mean, come on, in dental school operative course in the simulation clinic is three years (at Western)!!!! Then there is clinical works too! And as for prescriptions I highly doubt hygienists study pharmacology, pathology, and physiology as much as dentists do. Interestingly, the lobbying arm of CDA, and ODA have been utterly useless up to now if non-existent.

As a friend once said, I won't be surprised if the anyone on the street will be filling teeth by the time we graduate.

[virtual reality]

Lol honestly, I'de be more concerned with Dental Hygienists being able do restorations and soon prescribing these days (Legislation has been passed, and regulations are in the works). A couple hundred dentists won't kill many jobs. Thousands of hygienists graduating from 20 school in Ontario alone, with increasing powers probably will. No offence, but I'm not sure 6 months of extra work after graduation makes anyone capable of restoring teeth. I mean, come on, in dental school operative course in the simulation clinic is three years (at Western)!!!! Then there is clinical works too! And as for prescriptions I highly doubt hygienists study pharmacology, pathology, and physiology as much as dentists do. Interestingly, the lobbying arm of CDA, and ODA have been utterly useless up to now if non-existent.

As a friend once said, I won't be surprised if the anyone on the street will be filling teeth by the time we graduate.

 

I don't think it's difficult to get a work permit and permanent residence if you're a dentist working at a clinic.

 

As a new dentist, a good portion of my income comes from placing restorations. If hygienists started placing restorations, I might take a big financial hit.

[Ostracized]

I don't think it's difficult to get a work permit and permanent residence if you're a dentist working at a clinic.

 

As a new dentist, a good portion of my income comes from placing restorations. If hygienists started placing restorations, I might take a big financial hit.

 

I don't think hygienists will be able to place restorations without the supervision of a dentist. If I'm wrong please let me know. My understanding is that there are already some restorative hygienistss out there placing fillings under a dentist.

[MCATwannabe]

I don't think hygienists will be able to place restorations without the supervision of a dentist. If I'm wrong please let me know. My understanding is that there are already some restorative hygienistss out there placing fillings under a dentist.

 

Yeah apparently they can't drill but can fill. No supervision required, though there is a need of an order from a dentist.

Honestly, I just don't understand why the government allows this. As dental students we study and practice restorations for the full four years under supervision. I really can't justify how they can do all this in a 6 month course after graduation.

Here is a program they have:

http://www.georgebrown.ca/S400-2013-2014/

 

Here is a FAQ from college of dental hygiene regarding powers of dental hygienists that explains how they don't need supervision:

http://www.cdho.org/self+initiation+faq.asp

 

Here is a PDF of comparison of different abilities of dental hygienists in different provinces and upcoming changes:

http://www.cdha.ca/pdfs/profession/RegulatoryComparisonCharts_final.pdf

 

Here is the law that changed in 2010 regarding prescriptions:

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/source/statutes/english/2009/elaws_src_s09026_e.htm

 

Here is the upcoming regulation:

http://www.cdho.org/Otherdocuments/ProposedDrugReg_2013.pdf

 

Now Apparently, ODA actually supports this. So i'm not sure if it's too bad, or if it's going to change anything, since they are basically just ordering/selling/applying Chlorohexidine and fluoride.

 

In terms, of restorations though, I'm kinda worried.

[MCATwannabe]

Now there is a good side and bad side to the restorations, I heard. In the sense that dentist can more focus on drilling, and then have a dental hygienist finish the filling, and make more money in the end. But to me, that would, A) does not guarantee the filling is placed correctly.

How would the dental hygienist fix the bad filling (that hey recently placed) if they are not allowed to drill to take it out?

C) If an establish dentist can now take that many more patients by having an extra hygienist, what would happen to recent graduates? Would they lose patients?

D) Now if they are allowed to drill, they what would the dentist do? Like yeah there is prosto stuff and etc, but what percentage of those do you do as a dentist? Besides, this restorative certification for hygienists allows them to do some temporary crowns too.

 

I don't want to sound very pessimistic but here is a list of what an established dentist wouldn't do: Place rubber dams., do any probing, take any x-rays, do any major mouth diagnosis that doesn't involve teeth (aka strep throat), do any cleaning, Do any restoration (at least the filling part), Do any wax ups, Do any dentures (aka send to lab), do any thing below gum line. Seriously, I know you can do all of that as a dentist, but I see that as people say, you wouldn't be doing anything really. I feel like for everything you learn in dental school, there is someone already present with a brand new profession to do the job. There was only restorations, that now I just learned dental hygienists can do. Now it's good that as dentist you can pick and choose what you like, so that's great, but still there isn't that much exclusivity.

[Teamplayer7]

Its very competitive to get into dental school in Canada. The best dentists from the foreign countries do not have the grades, education of the top people that are not getting into Canadian dental schools because we have such limited seats. Our government (my money), now is paying for a program to give foreign dentists the opportunity to become a dentist over Canada's brightest potential dentists that just missed the cut .............. this is not a good day and extremely concerning. If we are going to saturate the dentist market in Canada, I wish we would do it with our own best and brightest and fulfill there dreams, the people who pay taxes. The investment should be in opening Canadian dental schools and or opening more seats, because there are many people who don't get in who are better. What does this teach our students? Don't go to western, don't go to harvard.......go to india and pay pennies and try to get through back door.

[virtual reality]

Hey guys,

 

Instead of using this forum to vent, why don't we take action. I already sent an email to a few authorities including:

1. CDA president

2. ACFD director

3. MP

4. Citizenship and Immigration minister

 

Please send emails to all relevant authorities and request amendments to the foreign-trained dentist equivalency process.

 

There is also a public facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Close-the-flood-gate-to-dentistry-in-Canada/319542381482505?ref=stream

[MCATwannabe]

Have you gotten reply back?

Hey guys,

 

Instead of using this forum to vent, why don't we take action. I already sent an email to a few authorities including:

1. CDA president

2. ACFD director

3. MP

4. Citizenship and Immigration minister

 

Please send emails to all relevant authorities and request amendments to the foreign-trained dentist equivalency process.

 

There is also a public facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Close-the-flood-gate-to-dentistry-in-Canada/319542381482505?ref=stream

[Teamplayer7]

virtual reality

Junior Member -

 

Great Post Virtual Reality, I hope more people follow your lead. Its possible to change this stuff but their needs to be a stronger push. I have been lobbying for 3 years now to prevent these things from happening, and now reversing what has begun. It is very clear and apparent, we all can sit and watch bankers destroy that industry....don't feel safe and comfortable because you have faith that people in charge are protecting us and doing whats best. They are simply not, and are making mistakes that will have great impact on the dental industry.

[Teamplayer7]

Join his facebook thread and standup for your future or no one will https://www.facebook.com/pages/Close...505?ref=stream

[Doritos]

Didnt know about 203 in 2012... I suppose most of them will practice in Quebec/Ontario big cities? Im not against foreign dentists getting the opportunity to challenge the boards but they should limit the numbers!

[dentist12345]

Someone should reach out to Dr. Harry Höediono. He was the ODA president in 2012 and has clout.

 

WHile sometimes he can be a bit of a big talker, he is super passionate about our field, actually does care about students and has a kid in dental school. He's a good person to get involved in this mess of unlimited dentists.

 

(ETA: I am not able to talk to him about this for personal reasons)

[futureGP]

so has this been implemented yet?

 

http://www.cicic.ca/en/professions.aspx?sortcode=2.19.21&prof=3113

 

says foreign trained docs need to do 2-years of schooling in canada

 

is that not that hard to do?

[Ostracized]

so has this been implemented yet?

 

http://www.cicic.ca/en/professions.aspx?sortcode=2.19.21&prof=3113

 

says foreign trained docs need to do 2-years of schooling in canada

 

is that not that hard to do?

 

That website is outdated. The qualifying programs already exist, but are no longer necessary.

[Ostracized]

2013 results are up.

 

http://www.ndeb.ca/nonaccredited/past-assessment-results

 

Slightly down from last year, but still greater than the domestic grad output of UofT and UWO, combined.

 

Interestingly, the pass rate was 9.5% this year, but the process costs $8800 each time. That's millions of dollars being spent by failed applicants. What a money maker!