Opening the flood gates: Foreign dentists can challenge the boards in 2011

[MCATwannabe]

In that case, you know who to contact: http://www.cdraf.org/english/contact_us.html

[Ostracized]

The entire equivilency process costs something like $8000 per applicant. The NDEB is making many millions of dollars off this process. And as someone mentioned, many of the dental schools have jumped on board with expensive training programs. This is very short-sighted of the dental schools. If the profession crashes, no one will be signing up to pay $200,000 in tuition. I just saw a report on CNN about law schools in the US being sued by their students because no one is getting employed. Lawyers working as baristas. No profession is immune.

[UWOStudent89]

In that case med schools are doing really good jobs in controlling the amount of physicians in each residency program. Carms is making img harder and harder to pracrice in canada and same thing goes to american schools. Our med schools keep increasing the number of seats every year and the control for foreign traited pyhsicians has been tighter. Thats why more and more students are choosing medicine as their profession because thet know their job will be secure and well protected by carms. But look at whats happening in our field! We have decreases the number of dental graduates and they are now allowing thousands of FTDs to practice hwre with just one exam! Not to mention students in australia, NZ, and ireland are now treated the same as canadian dental graduates. Im surprised this all happened just in 2-3 YEARS and so smoothly too! this just proves how unsecure our field is compared to medicine and im afraid its possible we will see something similar to what has happened in pharmacy and law.

 

Yes, many fields are like this as some of you mentioned but when we are getting a doctor degree with paying 200k I would not want to be naive and just think its unfortunate. The reason why competition to dds programs here is high is because there is not much competition in getting jobs after we graduate. But this is not the case now. You cant get a full-time job after dent school and I cant even describe in words how worse it will get after all these craps happened in 3 years.

 

So we must do something now before its too late.

[bdsdent]

Dear colleagues.

 

I am what you call a "foreign trained dentist". After reading some of the posts in this thread, I am deeply offended but I will try to keep emotions out of this reply, even though it is easier said than done.

 

It really amazes me how some of the Canadian dentists or, Americans for that matter, managed to get it into their heads that they are the only truly qualified dentists to walk this earth and that any dentist trained outside is not worthy to be en par with them. Not only that this notion is ridiculous, it shows ignorance. I am not even going to go into what dentists trained outside have done and contributed to the world of dentistry over the years.

 

When you read someone posting here saying "In my opinion the CDA and NDEB are shooting dentists in the foot and our own regulatory bodies are compromising the integrity of the profession. " I would assume that person has never read a journal or a paper that had any names on it other that American and Canadian names. I hope he does understand how is that offensive to any FTD who may very well be better than he or she is.

 

Are there terribly educated "foreign" dentists out theirs? Sure. BUT are you seriously trying to make a point that all US/Canadian dentists are good or even acceptable. If you are, then you are deluding yourself. And if you rebuttal by saying that you have measures within your education system to ensure that all graduates are not below a certain standard, then I will politely ask you what these standards are. I will go ahead of you here and say "exams" all sorts of exams. AND that is what is being offered now for those plagued FTDs.

 

Just as exams filter out the good and bad within your education system. It will filter out the good and the bad from the FTDs, and SURE some bad ones will fall through that filter JUST as it happens for those educated "inside". Then, the workplace is what filter those regardless of their credentials. It will be the merit of their work.

 

 

Now allow me to comment on the not so prejudice reasons to be anti FTDs.

 

Reason 1: More competition, less jobs, less income

 

Fair enough. But since when any job didn't depend on competition. Those are rules of a free market. If the FTDs are so terrible as you say, they wont be able to build a client base and go bankrupt anyway.

 

If he/she turned to be better than you in catering for patients, then you are in no position to complain about competition since you are the person who is in the backseat.

 

 

Reason 2: We pay a load of money for dental school and then they just pay for exams, thats unfair

 

First of all, you don't know what that FTD paid for his dental school. It may be not 200k dollars but you do know that there is a currency rate, right?. What he/she paid for his education in his home country currency may be very well what 200k dollars mean to you.

 

Some one made a point that the reason there is so much competition to get in dental schools in Canada in the first place is the lack of competition after graduation. And that raises school tuition. I don't believe that, but for those who do, shouldn't allowing FTDs raise workforce competition, and drive tuition down? Is that a bad thing.

 

And for predentals, if the tuition costs bothering you so much or you are bothered by the unfairness of the less than 200k dollars education existing outside your schools, then go get one outside your country and come back. I doubt you'd do so, but please don't complain about unfairness in this regard because it's now open for you too!

 

 

I am sorry if I have offended anyone, but I would like you to see how some of what has been written sounds like to a FTD. I hope you see that running to create petitions and send emails to stop FTDs like they are a plague is a decision that I think is not being contemplated thoroughly.

 

Your concerns to protect your/our profession is justifiable but the FTD pathway is not a real threat to your profession. Qualified dentists with great skills and great patient rapport will always be the merit by which dentists ensure their lively-hood and income and to feel threaten by more dentists whether FTDs or not, is factor of how confident you are in your own skills. Competition is what keeps the integrity of any profession or market.

 

Cheers

[realtime9]

Dear colleagues.

 

I am what you call a "foreign trained dentist". After reading some of the posts in this thread, I am deeply offended but I will try to keep emotions out of this reply, even though it is easier said than done.

 

It really amazes me how some of the Canadian dentists or, Americans for that matter, managed to get it into their heads that they are the only truly qualified dentists to walk this earth and that any dentist trained outside is not worthy to be en par with them. Not only that this notion is ridiculous, it shows ignorance. I am not even going to go into what dentists trained outside have done and contributed to the world of dentistry over the years.

 

When you read someone posting here saying "In my opinion the CDA and NDEB are shooting dentists in the foot and our own regulatory bodies are compromising the integrity of the profession. " I would assume that person has never read a journal or a paper that had any names on it other that American and Canadian names. I hope he does understand how is that offensive to any FTD who may very well be better than he or she is.

 

Are there terribly educated "foreign" dentists out theirs? Sure. BUT are you seriously trying to make a point that all US/Canadian dentists are good or even acceptable. If you are, then you are deluding yourself. And if you rebuttal by saying that you have measures within your education system to ensure that all graduates are not below a certain standard, then I will politely ask you what these standards are. I will go ahead of you here and say "exams" all sorts of exams. AND that is what is being offered now for those plagued FTDs.

 

Just as exams filter out the good and bad within your education system. It will filter out the good and the bad from the FTDs, and SURE some bad ones will fall through that filter JUST as it happens for those educated "inside". Then, the workplace is what filter those regardless of their credentials. It will be the merit of their work.

 

 

Now allow me to comment on the not so prejudice reasons to be anti FTDs.

 

Reason 1: More competition, less jobs, less income

 

Fair enough. But since when any job didn't depend on competition. Those are rules of a free market. If the FTDs are so terrible as you say, they wont be able to build a client base and go bankrupt anyway.

 

If he/she turned to be better than you in catering for patients, then you are in no position to complain about competition since you are the person who is in the backseat.

 

 

Reason 2: We pay a load of money for dental school and then they just pay for exams, thats unfair

 

First of all, you don't know what that FTD paid for his dental school. It may be not 200k dollars but you do know that there is a currency rate, right?. What he/she paid for his education in his home country currency may be very well what 200k dollars mean to you.

 

Some one made a point that the reason there is so much competition to get in dental schools in Canada in the first place is the lack of competition after graduation. And that raises school tuition. I don't believe that, but for those who do, shouldn't allowing FTDs raise workforce competition, and drive tuition down? Is that a bad thing.

 

And for predentals, if the tuition costs bothering you so much or you are bothered by the unfairness of the less than 200k dollars education existing outside your schools, then go get one outside your country and come back. I doubt you'd do so, but please don't complain about unfairness in this regard because it's now open for you too!

 

 

I am sorry if I have offended anyone, but I would like you to see how some of what has been written sounds like to a FTD. I hope you see that running to create petitions and send emails to stop FTDs like they are a plague is a decision that I think is not being contemplated thoroughly.

 

Your concerns to protect your/our profession is justifiable but the FTD pathway is not a real threat to your profession. Qualified dentists with great skills and great patient rapport will always be the merit by which dentists ensure their lively-hood and income and to feel threaten by more dentists whether FTDs or not, is factor of how confident you are in your own skills. Competition is what keeps the integrity of any profession or market.

 

Cheers

 

good for you..

[donnadee]

bdsdent, some points you make maybe valid...not all however.

even if you take currency exchange into account, 200,000 is still much higher...as someone familiar with international schooling, i can tell you that most universities operating in the non north-american, european, australian schools do not command such high tuition rates... simply the system to borrow such exuberant amounts from banks for the purpose of education does not exist in most countries and that is a luxury we have in north america...furthermore, i believe that canadian grads are probably also bitter about this as they are stuck with these tuition payments to banks at high interest rates, often taking as long as 5-10yrs to payback while someone from a non-north american, australian school can simply fly back with zero debt owing to a canadian bank and set up shop...

the reason to ease the process of ftds also does not make sense since dentistry is a regulated profession in Canada...this means that not unlike medicine, there are associations that protect the profession to ensure that not only are standards of care maintained but also that the workforce remains consistent to the demands of the population...it is the job of associations regulating the profession to ensure that dental workforce employment levels remain consistent with the quality of lifestyle and income that the profession supports. while canada is a free market system, every self regulated profession operates in a free market economy based on principles of monopoly. this means that the monopoly controls both the level of prices and products that it produces for the population...hence a monopoly would be shooting itself in the foot if it flooded its own products into the marketplace as that will lower the price (aka prices charged, income levels)

[bdsdent]

bdsdent, some points you make maybe valid...not all however.

even if you take currency exchange into account, 200,000 is still much higher...as someone familiar with international schooling, i can tell you that most universities operating in the non north-american, european, australian schools do not command such high tuition rates... simply the system to borrow such exuberant amounts from banks for the purpose of education does not exist in most countries and that is a luxury we have in north america...furthermore, i believe that canadian grads are probably also bitter about this as they are stuck with these tuition payments to banks at high interest rates, often taking as long as 5-10yrs to payback while someone from a non-north american, australian school can simply fly back with zero debt owing to a canadian bank and set up shop...

the reason to ease the process of ftds also does not make sense since dentistry is a regulated profession in Canada...this means that not unlike medicine, there are associations that protect the profession to ensure that not only are standards of care maintained but also that the workforce remains consistent to the demands of the population...it is the job of associations regulating the profession to ensure that dental workforce employment levels remain consistent with the quality of lifestyle and income that the profession supports. while canada is a free market system, every self regulated profession operates in a free market economy based on principles of monopoly. this means that the monopoly controls both the level of prices and products that it produces for the population...hence a monopoly would be shooting itself in the foot if it flooded its own products into the marketplace as that will lower the price (aka prices charged, income levels)

 

I don't disagree with what you are saying but that has very little if nothing to do with the new FTD pathway.

 

See you say that dentistry is regulated to not only protect the consumers but also the workforce. Who's to say that this workforce has to graduate from a Canadian school. Here is the simple logic I am trying to convey here;

 

if a FTD is competent enough to be able to pass the equivalency exams from the first trial. then that FTD was most probably competent enough to pass the 2 years IDP. AND allowing foreigners to sit the IDP and get licensed has always been the case in canada... all that changed is the process of doing so.

 

Now you will argue that a much higher number of FTD are going to be dropped in the market by this process.. My answer to that is; NO, not really, may be a bit higher but not to drive the profession to the ground as it is being portrayed here. Let me remind you that the equivalency process is done ONCE per year, its not all year around event.

 

The Canadian market is not saturated that pooling in a bit more (the little bit difference between IDP and equivalency) will ruin the profession. Sure, it is saturated in big cites. AND that is really what I believe the essence of resistance to this FTD new pathway. Dentists who are to set shop in these cites don't want more competition, but guess what if you want to set shop in a high end neighborhood to get all its perks, you will ALWAYS have competition whether its from your own classmates or a FTD and in such case, let the best man win.

 

But the market is not saturated is other parts of the country,so, no the regulatory bodies are not shooting themselves in the feet nor neglecting its workforce well being.

 

Back to the less cost of tuition issue, I hardly think that feeling bitter that you have to pay higher interests qualifies as basis for an argument to shut down the FTD pathway. Even though, that I personally feel for anyone who has to . I do believe that the tuition costs are ridiculously high in Canada and they should go down a bit and maybe this might help or may be not.

Furthermore, you could utilize the option of getting your education abroad and then coming back.

 

And lastly, for some people the resistance to FTD will always be merely based on prejudice and not logic such as the case for the colleague who responded to my post with "good for you".

 

Cheers

[Legion]

Furthermore, you could utilize the option of getting your education abroad and then coming back

 

You could also utilize the option of practicing in your home country, no?

[uncooling]

hey bdsdent,

 

you say it should be based on your skill not whether you're an FTD or canadian school graduate,

 

but if you're a really skilled FTD, why do you even come to Canada to practice?? Aren't you really skilled, so you can take care of people in your country?

 

You're saying as if FTDs are coming here to provide better dental care to Canadians, but if I were a FTD who is highly skilled, I would care for your country first.

 

So you're basically paraphrasing "I have no option but to stay in your country and also steal many of your jobs" into "We are skilled, we increase competition, you will provide a better dental care, it's all good"

[donnadee]

I don't disagree with what you are saying but that has very little if nothing to do with the new FTD pathway.

 

See you say that dentistry is regulated to not only protect the consumers but also the workforce. Who's to say that this workforce has to graduate from a Canadian school. Here is the simple logic I am trying to convey here;

 

if a FTD is competent enough to be able to pass the equivalency exams from the first trial. then that FTD was most probably competent enough to pass the 2 years IDP. AND allowing foreigners to sit the IDP and get licensed has always been the case in canada... all that changed is the process of doing so.

 

Now you will argue that a much higher number of FTD are going to be dropped in the market by this process.. My answer to that is; NO, not really, may be a bit higher but not to drive the profession to the ground as it is being portrayed here. Let me remind you that the equivalency process is done ONCE per year, its not all year around event.

 

The Canadian market is not saturated that pooling in a bit more (the little bit difference between IDP and equivalency) will ruin the profession. Sure, it is saturated in big cites. AND that is really what I believe the essence of resistance to this FTD new pathway. Dentists who are to set shop in these cites don't want more competition, but guess what if you want to set shop in a high end neighborhood to get all its perks, you will ALWAYS have competition whether its from your own classmates or a FTD and in such case, let the best man win.

 

But the market is not saturated is other parts of the country,so, no the regulatory bodies are not shooting themselves in the feet nor neglecting its workforce well being.

 

Back to the less cost of tuition issue, I hardly think that feeling bitter that you have to pay higher interests qualifies as basis for an argument to shut down the FTD pathway. Even though, that I personally feel for anyone who has to . I do believe that the tuition costs are ridiculously high in Canada and they should go down a bit and maybe this might help or may be not.

Furthermore, you could utilize the option of getting your education abroad and then coming back.

 

And lastly, for some people the resistance to FTD will always be merely based on prejudice and not logic such as the case for the colleague who responded to my post with "good for you".

 

Cheers

 

free market is the logic you used to support your view with regards to why competition by having ftds will be useful. my response was a reply to that aspect telling you that the competition that you speak of is exactly what a regulated profession is out there to protect against...the view of the profession is that all general dentists that have been licensed provide more or less, a certain acceptable level of care. creating competition among workforce within healthcare/dentistry has more negative implications in the long run for the profession as opposed to the benefit that it provides the consumer in terms of being able to find a better dentist due to higher availability...i disagree with you that competition is what will keep a healthcare profession going..it is exactly what will ruin the healthcare profession in the long run..reasons im sure you will be aware of...higher competition will lead to more dentists spending time marketing their services, competing for cost ending up buying less than optimal quality materials, and finally agreeing to proceed with otherwise unethical treatments just for the purpose of being able to produce the same level of income.

introducing ftds does increase the competition in the workforce by adding on to an already sufficient supply of dentists in the workforce. however, since competition is not useful for the profession, adding more ftds or for that matter, even increasing yearly spots at canadian dental schools, is also not.

[bdsdent]

Okay here we go

 

1) As I specifically said my post, I doubt that any Canadian would go outside his country for a lower tuition. But now it's an option, which doesn't mean many will be doing, but it kinda closes the door on the unfairness of cost of tuition argument.

 

Theoretically I can practice in my home country but that is a not a viable option for me, just as you can theoretically get a lower tuition outside Canada, but that is not a viable option for many. I am afraid this is life. We don't always get what we want. For me personally. I would rather stay in my home country, but that is not a viable option for me.

 

2) Are you SERIOUSLY making the argument that if an FTD is skilled he shouldn't come to Canada. You absolutely have no grasp of how this works nor the history of north America. The ONLY reason the united states became the most powerful country in the world is by recruiting and luring in all the highly skilled professionals from all over the world. Assuming you are a Canadian, your great great ancestors must have had great skills and no viable options in their home country so as to migrate and settle in Canada. For gods sake, your immigration services have a skilled worker program.

 

3) NEVER did I make the point that FTDs are good for the profession in canada, all I said is that this might or might not lower your tuition fees. I have been always trying to make the point that FTDs are NOT BAD to the profession. I was saying that healthy competition is beneficial among the workforces; canadian grads and FTDs alike.

 

4) Again I doubt that any of you is taking the time to think without emotions. Because you didn't get my point. I will try to paraphrase here briefly, may be its my fault.

 

----Regulatory bodies should protect the workforce and ensure that there is a HEALTHY level of competition that wouldn't drive the value of their own products down nor allow excessive monopolies in the hands of few. I think I am pretty clear on that one. I don't disagree with any of you about it. However, this workforce INCLUDES Canadian grads and FTDS. It has always been like this and it will always be. GUESS WHAT, FTDs too want to earn a decent living. In my opinion, the reason is that the regulatory bodies are okay with this, is that the overall Canadian markets ARE NOT saturated, only big cites are. And then the argument becomes ;HOW IN THE WORLD will a few percentage increase of FTDS getting licensed per year than what was already happening previously, is going to affect the market in those big already saturated cities. The workplace had always FTDS doing their IDP and getting incorporated then suddenly when those same FTDS get a different way to do so and a slightly quicker way (it takes about 1 year or a few months short of a year to finish them instead of 2 years IDP) then they are viewed as the outsiders of the workforce that will ruin the profession.

 

 

In summary, all the arguments you are making are true and valid to a certain extend, the only issue you are missing is that FTDs have been always in the said workforce and will always be whether they passed their equivalency exams in 1 year or spent 2 years in an IDP. In previous years lets say 10 FTDs got licensed through IDP and it was okay. Now with equivalency exams, those SAME 10 FTDs will be thrown into the market by means of equivalency + may be a 5-10 % increase. Now I hope you see your own argument clearer and convince me that 15 or maybe even 20 FTDS instead of the previous 10 will ruin the market especially that rural areas are under supplied and that those extra 10 won't really affect the already oversupplied hot spots. In those hotspots, if an FTD steals your job from you, then that job was already going to be stolen by Canadian grads who are lined up for those lucrative neighborhoods anyway. So you can't really complain about the new 10 FTD guys in town, who are probably going straight to the less saturated markets.

 

 

( numbers are meant to be examples, its the percentage increase that matters)

 

As for the people who's only arguments are bigoted and prejudice towards foreigners in general and not with focus of the economics aspect of the issue, I have no reply for them.

 

Cheers

[donnadee]

Okay here we go

 

1) As I specifically said my post, I doubt that any Canadian would go outside his country for a lower tuition. But now it's an option, which doesn't mean many will be doing, but it kinda closes the door on the unfairness of cost of tuition argument.

 

Theoretically I can practice in my home country but that is a not a viable option for me, just as you can theoretically get a lower tuition outside Canada, but that is not a viable option for many. I am afraid this is life. We don't always get what we want. For me personally. I would rather stay in my home country, but that is not a viable option for me.

 

2) Are you SERIOUSLY making the argument that if an FTD is skilled he shouldn't come to Canada. You absolutely have no grasp of how this works nor the history of north America. The ONLY reason the united states became the most powerful country in the world is by recruiting and luring in all the highly skilled professionals from all over the world. Assuming you are a Canadian, your great great ancestors must have had great skills and no viable options in their home country so as to migrate and settle in Canada. For gods sake, your immigration services have a skilled worker program.

 

3) NEVER did I make the point that FTDs are good for the profession in canada, all I said is that this might or might not lower your tuition fees. I have been always trying to make the point that FTDs are NOT BAD to the profession. I was saying that healthy competition is beneficial among the workforces; canadian grads and FTDs alike.

 

4) Again I doubt that any of you is taking the time to think without emotions. Because you didn't get my point. I will try to paraphrase here briefly, may be its my fault.

 

----Regulatory bodies should protect the workforce and ensure that there is a HEALTHY level of competition that wouldn't drive the value of their own products down nor allow excessive monopolies in the hands of few. I think I am pretty clear on that one. I don't disagree with any of you about it. However, this workforce INCLUDES Canadian grads and FTDS. It has always been like this and it will always be. GUESS WHAT, FTDs too want to earn a decent living. In my opinion, the reason is that the regulatory bodies are okay with this, is that the overall Canadian markets ARE NOT saturated, only big cites are. And then the argument becomes ;HOW IN THE WORLD will a few percentage increase of FTDS getting licensed per year than what was already happening previously, is going to affect the market in those big already saturated cities. The workplace had always FTDS doing their IDP and getting incorporated then suddenly when those same FTDS get a different way to do so and a slightly quicker way (it takes about 1 year or a few months short of a year to finish them instead of 2 years IDP) then they are viewed as the outsiders of the workforce that will ruin the profession.

 

 

In summary, all the arguments you are making are true and valid to a certain extend, the only issue you are missing is that FTDs have been always in the said workforce and will always be whether they passed their equivalency exams in 1 year or spent 2 years in an IDP. In previous years lets say 10 FTDs got licensed through IDP and it was okay. Now with equivalency exams, those SAME 10 FTDs will be thrown into the market by means of equivalency + may be a 5-10 % increase. Now I hope you see your own argument clearer and convince me that 15 or maybe even 20 FTDS instead of the previous 10 will ruin the market especially that rural areas are under supplied and that those extra 10 won't really affect the already oversupplied hot spots. In those hotspots, if an FTD steals your job from you, then that job was already going to be stolen by Canadian grads who are lined up for those lucrative neighborhoods anyway. So you can't really complain about the new 10 FTD guys in town, who are probably going straight to the less saturated markets.

 

 

( numbers are meant to be examples, its the percentage increase that matters)

 

As for the people who's only arguments are bigoted and prejudice towards foreigners in general and not with focus of the economics aspect of the issue, I have no reply for them.

 

Cheers

 

hey i think the increase ,because of this new pathway, is much more than 5-10%...somebody on these forums posted a link to the ndeb showing how much the intake had increased from previous years and it was higher than that..i will try to post the link here if i can find it. also, increasing foreign intakes per yr may or may not always be the case..throughout history of dental workforce in canada, there have been changes to how ftds have been incorporated into the profession. finally, unfortunately, i can tell you that i know that there is very little data available with these authorities to know if dental workforce meets or exceeds the demands of the population...their reason for increasing ftd intake is not to meet the demand of underserviced areas (as there are not many) but is highly political without relevant research done on whether there is actually a need and whether hiring this way makes better sense than making ftds complete an ROS...i know in family medicine, the goal is to attract to underserviced areas so a lot of the foreign intakes have to do a return of service...i think that might balance the distribution problem a bit better.

[dlee88]

http://www.ndeb.ca/nonaccredited/past-assessment-results

[cleanup]

bdsdent, I think you're right to be upset at the animosity you might see in the dental community against foreign-trained dentists such as yourself. However, you need to understand where that animosity comes from. Everything I'm about to say, of course, is just my own opinion and interpretation, but this is the way that I see the situation.

 

I believe that the real reason why foreign-trained programmes exist is to save, and thereby make, money. When foreign-trained dentists enter the international programme, they go through a shorter curriculum, are already trained to a certain extent, and pay much higher tuition fees. They are unsubsidized by tax dollars and are essentially a more efficient and cheaper way to graduate a licensed professional.

 

To that end, the equivalency process for unaccredited dentists is just taking the whole saving money concept to the extreme. Around 120 people passed the equivalency process in 2012, and that's only likely to continue. U of T itself only graduates around 90 dentists a year, so last year it was somewhat akin to opening one or two new dental schools, except with nearly zero investment.

 

The issue here is that the only proximal goal of this process is to generate money for cash-strapped universities and generate more revenue for the CDA and NDEB. The fact is, is that there is no shortage of dentists in Canada; there is, however, a skewed geographical distribution of them. Our governing bodies justify these new policies by saying it'll surely solve the undersupply issue in rural and underserved areas. The hard truth, however, is that foreign-trained dentists are decidedly unlikely to settle anywhere outside of an urban center. I don't blame them; it's not exactly easy to immigrate into a country and expect yourself to do well or be happy in a non-metropolitan area that will seem desolate, far-from-home and devoid of people of your culture or background. This isn't a prejudiced statement, only my own perspective (my own family is a family of immigrants anyways).

 

From the perspective of domestically-trained dentists, the distribution issue should be solved the same way rural medicine is: provide some sort of incentive for us to practice in rural areas. Unfortunately, the powers-that-be are far from stepping in to provide such an incentive--it would cost too much.

 

As a result, in our eyes, the influx of foreign-trained dentists only seems to exacerbate oversaturation in major urban centres while only perpetuating the issue of difficult-to-access care in remote areas. Beyond that, while the equivalency process is certainly a difficult test, it seems ludicrous to me that our own governing bodies would equate a single test to the rigorous curriculum that they place their own students through. I'm not saying the dental education in other countries is sub-par; for all I know, it could even be objectively better, but the assumption that all is okay is a misguided one, in my opinion. It is better to be safe than sorry, and yet, the CDA and NDEB are completely fine with assuming that all will be okay, if only to generate a few extra million in revenue, and not have to worry about opening new schools or expanding existing ones should the need arise. Though the risk that foreign-trained dentists do not perform at the same level as their domestic counterparts may be small, it is still something that should not be ignored simply for the sake of saving a few bucks.

 

At the moment though, there is no need for more dentists in an absolute sense. There is a need for a shifting of resources. I don't mean to be offensive, but there is simply no real need, in the eyes of Canadian patients, dentists and health policy, for foreign-trained dental professionals.

[dlee88]

bdsdent, I think you're right to be upset at the animosity you might see in the dental community against foreign-trained dentists such as yourself. However, you need to understand where that animosity comes from. Everything I'm about to say, of course, is just my own opinion and interpretation, but this is the way that I see the situation.

 

I believe that the real reason why foreign-trained programmes exist is to save, and thereby make, money. When foreign-trained dentists enter the international programme, they go through a shorter curriculum, are already trained to a certain extent, and pay much higher tuition fees. They are unsubsidized by tax dollars and are essentially a more efficient and cheaper way to graduate a licensed professional.

 

To that end, the equivalency process for unaccredited dentists is just taking the whole saving money concept to the extreme. Around 120 people passed the equivalency process in 2012, and that's only likely to continue. U of T itself only graduates around 90 dentists a year, so last year it was somewhat akin to opening one or two new dental schools, except with nearly zero investment.

 

The issue here is that the only proximal goal of this process is to generate money for cash-strapped universities and generate more revenue for the CDA and NDEB. The fact is, is that there is no shortage of dentists in Canada; there is, however, a skewed geographical distribution of them. Our governing bodies justify these new policies by saying it'll surely solve the undersupply issue in rural and underserved areas. The hard truth, however, is that foreign-trained dentists are decidedly unlikely to settle anywhere outside of an urban center. I don't blame them; it's not exactly easy to immigrate into a country and expect yourself to do well or be happy in a non-metropolitan area that will seem desolate, far-from-home and devoid of people of your culture or background. This isn't a prejudiced statement, only my own perspective (my own family is a family of immigrants anyways).

 

From the perspective of domestically-trained dentists, the distribution issue should be solved the same way rural medicine is: provide some sort of incentive for us to practice in rural areas. Unfortunately, the powers-that-be are far from stepping in to provide such an incentive--it would cost too much.

 

As a result, in our eyes, the influx of foreign-trained dentists only seems to exacerbate oversaturation in major urban centres while only perpetuating the issue of difficult-to-access care in remote areas. Beyond that, while the equivalency process is certainly a difficult test, it seems ludicrous to me that our own governing bodies would equate a single test to the rigorous curriculum that they place their own students through. I'm not saying the dental education in other countries is sub-par; for all I know, it could even be objectively better, but the assumption that all is okay is a misguided one, in my opinion. It is better to be safe than sorry, and yet, the CDA and NDEB are completely fine with assuming that all will be okay, if only to generate a few extra million in revenue, and not have to worry about opening new schools or expanding existing ones should the need arise. Though the risk that foreign-trained dentists do not perform at the same level as their domestic counterparts may be small, it is still something that should not be ignored simply for the sake of saving a few bucks.

 

At the moment though, there is no need for more dentists in an absolute sense. There is a need for a shifting of resources. I don't mean to be offensive, but there is simply no real need, in the eyes of Canadian patients, dentists and health policy, for foreign-trained dental professionals.

 

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[virtual reality]

bdsdent, I think you're right to be upset at the animosity you might see in the dental community against foreign-trained dentists such as yourself. However, you need to understand where that animosity comes from. Everything I'm about to say, of course, is just my own opinion and interpretation, but this is the way that I see the situation.

 

I believe that the real reason why foreign-trained programmes exist is to save, and thereby make, money. When foreign-trained dentists enter the international programme, they go through a shorter curriculum, are already trained to a certain extent, and pay much higher tuition fees. They are unsubsidized by tax dollars and are essentially a more efficient and cheaper way to graduate a licensed professional.

 

To that end, the equivalency process for unaccredited dentists is just taking the whole saving money concept to the extreme. Around 120 people passed the equivalency process in 2012, and that's only likely to continue. U of T itself only graduates around 90 dentists a year, so last year it was somewhat akin to opening one or two new dental schools, except with nearly zero investment.

 

The issue here is that the only proximal goal of this process is to generate money for cash-strapped universities and generate more revenue for the CDA and NDEB. The fact is, is that there is no shortage of dentists in Canada; there is, however, a skewed geographical distribution of them. Our governing bodies justify these new policies by saying it'll surely solve the undersupply issue in rural and underserved areas. The hard truth, however, is that foreign-trained dentists are decidedly unlikely to settle anywhere outside of an urban center. I don't blame them; it's not exactly easy to immigrate into a country and expect yourself to do well or be happy in a non-metropolitan area that will seem desolate, far-from-home and devoid of people of your culture or background. This isn't a prejudiced statement, only my own perspective (my own family is a family of immigrants anyways).

 

From the perspective of domestically-trained dentists, the distribution issue should be solved the same way rural medicine is: provide some sort of incentive for us to practice in rural areas. Unfortunately, the powers-that-be are far from stepping in to provide such an incentive--it would cost too much.

 

As a result, in our eyes, the influx of foreign-trained dentists only seems to exacerbate oversaturation in major urban centres while only perpetuating the issue of difficult-to-access care in remote areas. Beyond that, while the equivalency process is certainly a difficult test, it seems ludicrous to me that our own governing bodies would equate a single test to the rigorous curriculum that they place their own students through. I'm not saying the dental education in other countries is sub-par; for all I know, it could even be objectively better, but the assumption that all is okay is a misguided one, in my opinion. It is better to be safe than sorry, and yet, the CDA and NDEB are completely fine with assuming that all will be okay, if only to generate a few extra million in revenue, and not have to worry about opening new schools or expanding existing ones should the need arise. Though the risk that foreign-trained dentists do not perform at the same level as their domestic counterparts may be small, it is still something that should not be ignored simply for the sake of saving a few bucks.

 

At the moment though, there is no need for more dentists in an absolute sense. There is a need for a shifting of resources. I don't mean to be offensive, but there is simply no real need, in the eyes of Canadian patients, dentists and health policy, for foreign-trained dental professionals.

 

well said

[virtual reality]

The main difference between the exams stream of the Canadian equivalency process and getting into an accredited dental program in Canada as a regular student or with advanced standing (foreign trained dentists) can be summarized by the word ‘competition’.

 

Getting into a dental school in Canada is highly competitive because of the limited number of seats. By comparison, because there is no cap on the number of foreign trained dentists who can qualify through the exams and the fact that they only need to meet a certain benchmark, there isn’t really that much competition and a lot of inadequately qualified people can actually get through.

 

So for those who believe in competition, why don’t you want to compete to become dentists in this country in the first place? Is it because you’re already dentists in another part of the world? Fine, maybe you want to stay there.

[MCATwannabe]

If you really want to know why FTD are coming to Canada in general, it's because it's listed as a qualifying occupation for Federal Skilled workers: http://www.canadavisa.com/new-instructions-federal-skilled-worker-applications.html

 

Edit: apparently the system is changing.

[cleanup]

If you really want to know why FTD are coming to Canada in general, it's because it's listed as a qualifying occupation for Federal Skilled workers: http://www.canadavisa.com/new-instructions-federal-skilled-worker-applications.html

 

Edit: apparently the system is changing.

 

Ehm, no. That list has existed for a while, and dentists have been up there for quite some time. The "changes" are listed in this article:

 

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/releases/2012/2012-12-19.asp

 

I'm not sure if the folks undergoing the equivalency process have or haven't already obtained permanent residence, but from what I recall dentists have been on the skilled workers list for a while.

 

Why wouldn't you want Canada's immigrants to be skilled, educated professionals? The issue isn't with immigration as a whole, it's with the absurd ease of licensure.

[MCATwannabe]

Ehm, no. That list has existed for a while, and dentists have been up there for quite some time. The "changes" are listed in this article:

 

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/releases/2012/2012-12-19.asp

 

I'm not sure if the folks undergoing the equivalency process have or haven't already obtained permanent residence, but from what I recall dentists have been on the skilled workers list for a while.

 

Why wouldn't you want Canada's immigrants to be skilled, educated professionals? The issue isn't with immigration as a whole, it's with the absurd ease of licensure.

 

I'm by no means against it. I'm just saying if you are importing dentists, then don't expect them to sit around, or deliver pizza. They will find a way to practice, and that's the cold hard truth.

[cleanup]

I'm by no means against it. I'm just saying if you are importing dentists, then don't expect them to sit around, or deliver pizza. They will find a way to practice, and that's the cold hard truth.

 

I'm really still not sure what your point is, but I would certainly hope that if someone makes it into this country with a desired skillset, they'd try to put it to use. Now, how easy that process is, and the profession's motivations for allowing them to do it (since dentistry is a regulated industry), however, is another story.

 

Immigration Canada's job is to bring in educated, skilled, productive members of society to Canada. The CDA's job is to protect and promote the integrity and quality of the dental profession. We shouldn't be talking about immigration policy at all--that's beyond the scope of this discussion.

[MCATwannabe]

I'm really still not sure what your point is, but I would certainly hope that if someone makes it into this country with a desired skillset, they'd try to put it to use. Now, how easy that process is, and the profession's motivations for allowing them to do it (since dentistry is a regulated industry), however, is another story.

 

Immigration Canada's job is to bring in educated, skilled, productive members of society to Canada. The CDA's job is to protect and promote the integrity and quality of the dental profession. We shouldn't be talking about immigration policy at all--that's beyond the scope of this discussion.

 

To be honest, with all of these discussions, we haven't really how hard the NDEB equivalency process is. All that has been discussed is the number of accepted. What we don't know is how many times they applies, how many times they got rejected, what was their education, what was their experience like, and where they are from. Certainly without these facts, you can't decide how hard the equivalency process is.

Now if you want to discuss numbers, you have to go to the root of the issue. If Canada is accepting dentists as immigrants, and dentistry is favoured with respect to other occupations, then expect these dentists to get their license. You may make the exam harder, but trust me, people would just study/practice harder to pass the exam. If you want to limit the number of dentists, then might as well don't give foreign trained dentists more advantage with respect to other people. As I said before, it's not fair to tell a group of people we need dentists, let them in, and then tell them sorry we can't give you licence to practice because we lied.

Now in terms of serving the rural areas, I think that commitment to practice in rural regions is not a bad idea if you want to fix that issue.You don't even have to make them move there, just give them the choice of practicing only in that region, and people will move there no problem.

[bdsdent]

1- I don't care for the motives for the regulatory bodies to do this nor did I get into it in my previous post. I am only interest in end results. I said that the reason they are OKAY with it and not freaking out and as someone said it shooting themselves in the foot, is because there is still a "need' in the market. You, CDA, NDEB and myself could argue all day about how much need there actually is. But you are right there is no absolute need in the market, however, in my opinion, there is enough need to accommodate the extra influx of FTDs with out over halting the system.

2-Again the point that I have been trying to make all along is not that the new FTD system is good for the market or that it is direly needed. Simply put, that it is in all probability not going to have an affect on the status quo.At least not much, that you should be even alarmed.

 

2- You can't simply revert back to an argument that you once opposed, competition.

 

The FTDs; the one who can actually make it through the equivalency and the ones who can actually make it in the Canadian market are ones who had very good dental training and have been through numerous competitions to get to where they are. In my case, in order to get into top dental schools in my country (which I managed to get in to), you must have scored over 96% in ALL of high school cumulative exams. There is about 3500~4000 students that manages to do so out of 100+ million country population

 

YET, I wouldn't oppose a cap on the number of equivalency seats to allow some form of pre-assessment screening. But I think they are doing so already, look at the data in the link you posted. They are keeping number of applicants passing one single exam more or less steady (an average of 40) regardless of the increasing number of applicants. So I guess they take in more money by not advertising the cap. But in effect, there is one

 

 

3- The link with the numbers on the ndeb site, says nothing as it doesn't compare it to the past years so we could see what the percentage increase is.

 

But let me work with it; assuming as some one said here that canada produce about 600 dentist per year. Previously maybe 70 of those 600 was from the IDP. Now as per the data on the link posted, 44 get licensed in 2011 by the equivalency and 76 (got admissions into IDP) the numbers don't even tell you if those 76 graduate or not, maybe a handful of them dropped out and took the equivalency exams and are actually counted double, but for arguments sake, lets assume that they all graduate. So here its

 

In the past

500 regular admissions

70 IDP

total 570~600

 

2011

500 regular admission

120 (44 equivalency + 76 idp)

total 620~650.

 

Those extra 50 new guys are gonna ruin it for all of ya. If you do honestly think so, then putting all the economics and market analysis aside, you should consider being more confident in your own skills.!!

 

Now onto the 2012 data, which I no doubt will hear you say it almost doubled. That is in fact what is the shifting effect from IDP to equivalency looks like, read the fine print in the asterisks. In 2012, they didn't even bother to check for admissions only as in 2011, they reported available spaces. So the numbers breakdown will be similar to 2011, maybe a few head count extra.

 

I honestly hope, that you can see the picture now with out the feeling of Apocalypse and realize, again, if you are confident in your skills, this should not have direct effect on you.

OH and by the way, it is not a 1 test thingy versus your rigorous curriculum. Its a total of 5 exams spanned over a year period and most people go into universities in canada to get hands on preparation for the exams with their rigorous glorious curriculum and all. May be not a 2 years worth but nonetheless.

 

 

Cheers

[dlee88]

2011 - 119

2012 - 202

 

the numbers are only going to increase with time...

 

100 additional dentists every year is A HUGE INCREASE

 

and these numbers aren't taking into account of all the australian and american dental grads flooding into canada after graduating from australian and american dental schools respectively

[Ostracized]

In the past

500 regular admissions

70 IDP

total 570~600

 

2011

500 regular admission

120 (44 equivalency + 76 idp)

total 620~650.

 

Those extra 50 new guys are gonna ruin it for all of ya. If you do honestly think so, then putting all the economics and market analysis aside, you should consider being more confident in your own skills.!!

 

Now onto the 2012 data, which I no doubt will hear you say it almost doubled. That is in fact what is the shifting effect from IDP to equivalency looks like, read the fine print in the asterisks. In 2012, they didn't even bother to check for admissions only as in 2011, they reported available spaces. So the numbers breakdown will be similar to 2011, maybe a few head count extra.

 

 

I'm not sure what you are talking about. From 2011 to 2012 the number of equivilency licenses jumped from 44 to 127. How high will it be in 2013? 200? And the year after? Lets not forget also many dozen dentists coming from US schools and several dozen more coming from Australia/NZ/Ireland.

 

I have no problem with FTDs - my experience with my IDAPP class members was quite positive. The ones who I spoke to about the equivilency process were rather bitter about it - since they were the ones paying $100,000+ and spending 2.5 years getting their license. The equivilency process came in after they had started.

 

That said, if we are going to have this process, there should be a limit on the number of graduates, and currently there is not. We have a limit on the number of dental school grads, on the number of qualifying program grads, so why not a limit on this process? Set a reasonable number at only the top X number of applicants pass.

 

Lastly, I am concerned because no three-day test can accurately assess if someone is a good dentist. The fundamental knowledge test has a question bank that has been answered so it only really comes down to memorization of the questions. The hands-on test is with manniquins and fake teeth. There is no endo, no prostho, no surgery. These tests only test a very very small amount of what it is to be a dentist. So I would ask - what was wrong with the qualifying programs? They existed to license FTDs and they ensured that these grads were properly trained to Canadian standards.