Opening the flood gates: Foreign dentists can challenge the boards in 2011

[Que]

What are the venues to change this? What organizations are behind this increase in foreign trained dentists and what are their interests/intentions? What powers do we have, apart from voting rights, to change if not slow down this movement?

 

http://www.jdentaled.org/content/73/3/399.full

 

According to this article, "Canadian and U.S. universities are faced with the challenge that they are not graduating enough dentists to meet the future needs of the Canadian and U.S. populations. Foreign-trained dentists represent a valuable resource to society and the economy." lol

[Ostracized]

It's pathetic how most of you guys took on "leadership" activities  or advocated for certain rights at one point in your lives but can't advocate for your own profession. I'm sure most of you guys (including myself) are hating the way these decisions are being made, we need to stick up.

 

I can assure you there's no good solution.  I probably know this issue better than almost anyone.  I sit on the ODA governing council where this issue has been discussed at length.  I'm on the board of the Toronto Academy of Dentistry where last year we had a public meeting entitled "Are there too many dentists?" which included presentations from the RCDSO, ODA and UofT representatives.  I talked to the former CDA president for over 30 minutes about this issue.

 

It comes down to government pressure.  There is a specific government office created just to allow foreign professionals to become licensed:  http://www.fairnesscommissioner.ca/index_en.php.  When the fairness commissioner says jump, the NDEB and regulators ask 'how high?!"  The RCDSO is afraid that she'll pull their power for self-regulation.

 

Long story short - the government care a lot more about keeping new immigrants happy than they do about keeping dentists happy or even protecting patients.  And that isn't likely to change.

[Everclear]

2011

 

349 Canadian school grads

 

44 international grads

 

79 in advanced standing

 

Total: 472

 

 

 

2014

 

349 Canadian school grads (not including Quebec)

 

194 international grads

 

77 in advanced standing programs

 

Total: 620

 

 

I think the main issue of oversaturation would come from the international grads doing the equivalency exams as from the data above nearly half of new dentists in Canada enter via the challenge exams. A major problem I see is that a lot of dentists are getting licensed this way just by perfecting the procedures listed in the NBDE manual. It is a worrying sign when you see pass rates of less than 50% on the procedural portion of the exams as the practical portion of all licensing exams generally have a much higher pass rate than the theoretical portion because dental students are relatively skilled by their 4th year. I wonder if this low pass rates speaks to the lack of quality of these dentists or, equally likely, the difficulty of the challenge exams.

 

I don't think the issue of oversaturation comes from American, Australian, or Irish schools. The tuition costs is a limiting factor in these cases since only Alberta students can borrow anywhere close enough to enroll in these schools. Even then, due to the yearly tuition hike and devaluation of the loonie, the 400k (150k from the province, 250k LOC) is insufficient. Furthermore, the reciprocation agreement allows Canadian dentists to head down south in case the saturation in Canada worsens.

[Que]

I can assure you there's no good solution.  I probably know this issue better than almost anyone.  I sit on the ODA governing council where this issue has been discussed at length.  I'm on the board of the Toronto Academy of Dentistry where last year we had a public meeting entitled "Are there too many dentists?" which included presentations from the RCDSO, ODA and UofT representatives.  I talked to the former CDA president for over 30 minutes about this issue.

 

It comes down to government pressure.  There is a specific government office created just to allow foreign professionals to become licensed:  http://www.fairnesscommissioner.ca/index_en.php.  When the fairness commissioner says jump, the NDEB and regulators ask 'how high?!"  The RCDSO is afraid that she'll pull their power for self-regulation.

 

Long story short - the government care a lot more about keeping new immigrants happy than they do about keeping dentists happy or even protecting patients.  And that isn't likely to change.

Is there really nothing that can be done? I'm confused by the "power for self-regulation" you mentioned. Isn't the fact the dental industry having difficulty controlling the number of dental graduates a sign that this isn't so?

[Ostracized]

Yeah, you're kind of right. Basically it means that the regulators are run by dentists rather than the government. But they do exactly what the government wants, so I am forced to wonder why it should matter.

[dds19]

How's the job Market for someone who just gradute from the dental school? I've heard it is quite difficult to practice in Toronto, is it true? What dental students at u of t do after they gradute? I would assume not many of them go to specialize. 

[Que]

What about heading to US? I'm assuming with a larger population and more suburbs, it would be easier to find a job.

[StriveP]

I can assure you there's no good solution.  I probably know this issue better than almost anyone.  I sit on the ODA governing council where this issue has been discussed at length.  I'm on the board of the Toronto Academy of Dentistry where last year we had a public meeting entitled "Are there too many dentists?" which included presentations from the RCDSO, ODA and UofT representatives.  I talked to the former CDA president for over 30 minutes about this issue.

 

It comes down to government pressure.  There is a specific government office created just to allow foreign professionals to become licensed:  http://www.fairnesscommissioner.ca/index_en.php.  When the fairness commissioner says jump, the NDEB and regulators ask 'how high?!"  The RCDSO is afraid that she'll pull their power for self-regulation.

 

Long story short - the government care a lot more about keeping new immigrants happy than they do about keeping dentists happy or even protecting patients.  And that isn't likely to change.

 

That's a terrible reason. Just because she wants to keep "immigrants" happy? I rather go to the US than rather invest into the current system we have. I understand we need to be open to immigrants but there has to be a limit! Whoever this person is needs to grow a pair of balls

[Everclear]

What about heading to US? I'm assuming with a larger population and more suburbs, it would be easier to find a job.

  

That's a terrible reason. Just because she wants to keep "immigrants" happy? I rather go to the US than rather invest into the current system we have. I understand we need to be open to immigrants but there has to be a limit! Whoever this person is needs to grow a pair of balls

The US? Similar situation as Canada really, desirable urban areas are full but states like Washington, New Mexico, Alaska, N & S Dakota, Kansas and the Bible Belt states are brimming with opportunity. Then US dollar is a lot stronger than the Canadian dollar right now and for the foreseeable future so expect a 20-25% increase in salary for the same constant dollar value.

[Everclear]

That's a terrible reason. Just because she wants to keep "immigrants" happy? I rather go to the US than rather invest into the current system we have. I understand we need to be open to immigrants but there has to be a limit! Whoever this person is needs to grow a pair of balls

Exactly there should be a limit to which foreign trained dentists can just by pass by the process of going to accredited dental schools and earn their license for less than 16k when most of us pair a couple of 100k for our DDS. But what's our counter argument to the public? "We want to make more money"? The public already thinks dentists are grossly overpaid. I understand the patient safety and quality of care reasons to which one might argue passing a challenge exam does not equate to the quality of training we can get from Canada and US but the public probably will not buy this.

[StriveP]

Exactly there should be a limit to which foreign trained dentists can just by pass by the process of going to accredited dental schools and earn their license for less than 16k when most of us pair a couple of 100k for our DDS. But what's our counter argument to the public? "We want to make more money"? The public already thinks dentists are grossly overpaid. I understand the patient safety and quality of care reasons to which one might argue passing a challenge exam does not equate to the quality of training we can get from Canada and US but the public probably will not buy this.

 

Don't even get me started. Foreign doctor's have little to NO ethical training and many slip by the system without doing ANY undergraduate studies.  

[formidable]

it is so funny reading these comments. ya'll get so worked up. Foreign doctors in my experience have been the best doctors. you think the system is going to put out physicians who are not deemed eligible to provide services to the public? absurd. furthermore, are you trying to say that an undergraduate degree is necessary for an individual to be a proficient dentist or doctor? that is absurd.  

[Que]

it is so funny reading these comments. ya'll get so worked up. Foreign doctors in my experience have been the best doctors. you think the system is going to put out physicians who are not deemed eligible to provide services to the public? absurd. furthermore, are you trying to say that an undergraduate degree is necessary for an individual to be a proficient dentist or doctor? that is absurd.  

I personally do not think that is the biggest concern here. Most individuals who are entering dentistry at this point are concerned with our future job prospects. I do believe that with the significant time and financial investment, there hopefully is a patient market beyond our schooling. This is a realistic and practical view of the current economic climate and an important topic of discussion under the "Dental Forum" subheading. 

[JohnGrisham]

Get your heads out from you nowhere. To assume Canadian education is better than some places that foreign trained dentists are coming from is absurd. Get a grip

[JohnGrisham]

Don't even get me started. Foreign doctor's have little to NO ethical training and many slip by the system without doing ANY undergraduate studies.

Riiiiight.. Rolls eyes.

[StriveP]

Get your heads out from you nowhere. To assume Canadian education is better than some places that foreign trained dentists are coming from is absurd. Get a grip

 

I'm not saying the education is better here, I'm saying other countries don't put much emphasis on ethics which is absolutely true! More importantly it's just unfair for students who have to get a 3.9+ GPA and compete their butts off + get involved in ECs versus those who bypass the system.

[JohnGrisham]

And how much of these ethics topics you speak of are covered under current Canadian dental programs? Program specific or universally across the country? A few hours? A whole semester course? Need specifics.

[StriveP]

And how much of these ethics topics you speak of are covered under current Canadian dental programs? Program specific or universally across the country? A few hours? A whole semester course? Need specifics.

 

Interviews and courses in some schools. Get to the interview phase and literally everything on the interview will be about ethics.

[JohnGrisham]

Interviews and courses in some schools. Get to the interview phase and literally everything on the interview will be about ethics.

LOL

 

 

That is your standard? The 1 hour long interviews are supposedly the metric by which you think Canadian students are singificantly more well versed in ethics - and should make them better than foreign dentists?

 

I would laugh harder, but I can't tell if you're joking or not. 

 

If not, that is a very..very.. very weak argument.

 

There's nothing wrong with wanting to protect your profession - but don't use weak arguments to try and support it. 

[CPR trainer]

LOL

 

 

That is your standard? The 1 hour long interviews are supposedly the metric by which you think Canadian students are singificantly more well versed in ethics - and should make them better than foreign dentists?

 

I would laugh harder, but I can't tell if you're joking or not. 

 

If not, that is a very..very.. very weak argument.

 

There's nothing wrong with wanting to protect your profession - but don't use weak arguments to try and support it. 

 

I would suggest that you take a close look at the stats related to dentists that are brought to discipline or are investigated under section 75 by the RCDSO.

[JohnGrisham]

I can also use small cases to prove a point and say look at Dalhousie. Doesn't make it that great of an argument either lol.

 

Just be up front and say that you want to protect Canadian trained dentists- there's nothing wrong with that.

[StriveP]

LOL

 

 

That is your standard? The 1 hour long interviews are supposedly the metric by which you think Canadian students are singificantly more well versed in ethics - and should make them better than foreign dentists?

 

I would laugh harder, but I can't tell if you're joking or not. 

 

If not, that is a very..very.. very weak argument.

 

There's nothing wrong with wanting to protect your profession - but don't use weak arguments to try and support it. 

 

Not a weak argument. I've seen a doctor (newly immigrated) giving out the patient's confidential information in public before, needless to say I never went back to her again. So I don't know if you're ignorant or just being naive. The Dalhousie case is a valid point you made but by now everyone knows there was something seriously wrong with Dalhousie's interview process.

 

And like I said, I think immigrant dentists should be allowed to practice, but there needs to be stricter measures put into place. Do you know why dentists and physicians need to complete some years of undergrad? It's because patient's want more mature and elder doctors. There was a study done decades ago and I frankly don't have the time to look it up for you. So allowing 21 or 22 year-old "kid" dentists to come to Canada and bypass the entire system defeats the purpose of the care we are supposed to provide to patients. Also, the board exams don't filter out competencies that the interview process filters out. I hope you understand where i'm going. I can keep talking but this paragraph is already long enough.

[JohnGrisham]

And how many of those dentists coming to Canada are 21-22? I'm calling that a weak argument as well, I'd bet money that the average age is way higher.

 

I'm definitely not disagreeing with all your points - just that not all of them are necessary to form the protectionist stand. I'm all for Canadian dentists protecting their own future practices. I'm not for using weak arguments. I'd rather no arguments at all then weak ones.

 

The comment about undergrad is also invalid. Its a cash grab simple as that. Most places in the world dont have undergrad but rather have slightly longer medical degrees.

[JohnGrisham]

And the interviews are again one hour once in a lifetime things- they're in place to cut the applicant pool down, not to be some great filtering metric for ethics. Anyone can and do fake it for that 1 hour.

[formidable]

ubc2012, killem