evans Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 http://thetyee.ca/News/2015/02/06/Former-Cabinet-Minister-Wins-UBC-Residency/ Basically, to sum it up: The People Kevin Lichtenstein is studying at a non-North American medical school Dad is: director of cardiovascular thoracic (CVT) surgery at St. Paul's and the medical director for the regional cardiac science program at Providence Health Care and Vancouver Coastal Health. Mom is: Moira Stilwell, BC cabinet minister. Happened to put out this report: "Action Plan for Repatriating BC Medical Students Studying Abroad." http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/a-motherhood-issue/ Roger Wong, the associate dean of postgraduate medical education at UBC Richard Cook, the faculty of medicines co-program director for cardiac surgery. What Happened Cardiac surgery @ UBC has 2 spots. 10 applicants. Both are open in first iteration of CaRMS; Liechtenstein (IMG son) is an international so he only gets access to spots in the 2nd iteration Dr. Cook wants to leave 1 position unfilled in 1st iteration and go into 2nd iteration match so that they could consider candidates who are not eligible for the 1st iteration match Dr. Cook further says he wants to do this because: "a Canadian [who] studied medicine abroad and did an elective rotation with them, this candidate would not be eligible for 1st iteration but would be eligible for 2nd iteration" Dr. Cook goes ahead and does it Dr. Wong says what Dr. Cook did was bad. "Program's actions were not compliant with the CaRMS rules and procedures and that this irregularity could be contested to CaRMS in the future by a candidate and/or a medical school" Dr. Wong writes that Dr. Cook had intended for the "Program" "to leave a position unfilled so that it would become available to a candidate who was not eligible for the first round match but who had done an elective rotation with the Program and was the preferred candidate" The program held a 2nd iteration 96 applicants Guess who get's chosen? Kevin Lichtenstein, an IMG who happened to be the son of Stilwell and a program director. Also, probably the guy Cook mentioned to Dr. Wong, when he said why he illegally left a spot open. TL;DR: If you tried to match at UBC Cardiac Surgery in 2013, one of your spots was reserved for an international med grad, even though that's against CaRMS rules. It's nice to have powerful parents. Maybe I can get Lichtenstein to adopt me. (Also, this was posted earlier, but it wasn't that clear on the story. This is something that I think we should all speak up on. Residency spots are very competitive, and it's disgusting that nepotism can play a role in what should be a very equitable process). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGrisham Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Could be that the first round applicants weren't good fits for the program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD2015 Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Yah right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
武田信玄 Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 What a great system we have here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username92 Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username92 Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGrisham Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 This whole ''Canadians-studied-abroad-and-want-to-come-back'' thing irks me. I get it, getting into medical school is very hard, I've been there, I know the numbers. But just because you ''want'' to become a medical doctor, doesn't mean you have all the rights in the world to be one. If you can't get a 3.5-3.6 gpa out of 4.0 in your undergraduate studies in Canada, + EC's/people skills (extenuating circumstances aside, not the hardest things to do if you're a good fit for medical school), and feel the need to heavily in-debt yourself to go study in a sub-par medical school far from everything you know and that doesn't want you to stay to practice (basically a MD diploma mill), then maybe it's time to reconsider your career choices. I myself had my plan B's and C's, and going abroad definitely wasn't one of them. Your characterization of all IMG schools is a bit off, but the point stands nonetheless. Its a political thing, not necessarily always about the quality of the school. Many of which in Ireland and the UK are excellent schools that have existed longer than Canadian schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evans Posted June 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Could be that the first round applicants weren't good fits for the program. Even if they were, you're not allowed to leave a spot open after the first round, if there are more applicants than positions. Also, Dr. Cook explicitly told his intentions that the reason why he was leaving a spot open was because he wanted a specific international student, who was only applicable in the second round of matching. (=smoking gun) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatonekid Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Here's some of the prior discussion on this topic.http://forums.premed101.com/index.php?/topic/81812-how-son-of-former-cabinet-minister-won-a-coveted-ubc-residency/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGrisham Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Even if they were, you're not allowed to leave a spot open after the first round, if there are more applicants than positions. Also, Dr. Cook explicitly told his intentions that the reason why he was leaving a spot open was because he wanted a specific international student, who was only applicable in the second round of matching. (=smoking gun) Oh i don't disagree. I guess just from their unique perspective, its a very specialized and difficult field. I think sometimes program directors would rather leave a spot unfilled and hope there is someone better in the 2nd round, then take someone they have no interest in dealing with for 5 years on their team. I guess in this case, they knew there WOULD be a better person in round 2, via that person doing an elective there etc. But yeah, smoking gun indeed. I don't know how i feel on it to be honest, when i initially read it not long ago on the first post - i was pretty against it, but now that i think about it more, its a tough situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3change Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laika Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 you're not allowed to leave a spot open after the first round, if there are more applicants than positions. Really? I was under the impression programs were allowed not to rank all applicants (and therefore potentially have unfilled spots) if the program felt an applicant was not appropriate for their program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Really? I was under the impression programs were allowed not to rank all applicants (and therefore potentially have unfilled spots) if the program felt an applicant was not appropriate for their program. oh they are but if you program is very small (like one or two) and you are dead sure that the one person you rank for instance will rank you as there top choice you can then just rank on person etc. In programs with only one spot (which are often those really desired ones), then you just don't rank anyone. That is the issue - you cannot just chose to not rank to leave something open - only not ranking someone because you wouldn't take them no matter what is allowed. Our system for most programs couldn't do this at all! You cannot rank say just 7 people for a program with 8 spots so you know for sure one spot is left for your best friends son. Some of those 7 will want to go somewhere else more and then you are left with ha a lot more than 1 spot left and all the good candidates are taken prior to round 2. So you have honestly rank everyone as a rule in the hopes that won't happen which in effect stops this sort of crap from happening. This is a very strange case - and what I find most interesting is how they didn't get away with it and why they would have thought they could have.. It is a pretty obvious thing to investigate - CARMS would have been all over this (ahhhh why did program X not rank anyone in round 1 - mistake? No? Seriously you are ranking no one? and if not they then you know from the stats at the end if you didn't match to cardiac that they didn't rank you at all. You would pretty quickly find out later on that so and so son got the spot - and then bam, media war etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laika Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 That is the issue - you cannot just chose to not rank to leave something open - only not ranking someone because you wouldn't take them no matter what is allowed. Yeah, I get that. I was trying to offer a potential line of defense for a corrupt PD who may want to avoid successful civil litigation or job dismissal. This is serious stuff. Does Cook still have his job? Did the program or UBC receive any official reprimand? CaRMS seems to be aware of the situation -- was there any official response? How can anyone have faith in the integrity of the match process when an incident like this is allowed to occur? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Yeah, I get that. I was trying to offer a potential line of defense for a corrupt PD who may want to avoid successful civil litigation or job dismissal. This is serious stuff. Does Cook still have his job? Did the program or UBC receive any official reprimand? CaRMS seems to be aware of the situation -- was there any official response? How can anyone have faith in the integrity of the match process when an incident like this is allowed to occur? you can't which is why it will be dealt with. To say CARMS would take a dim view of it would be an understatement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laika Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 CaRMS seemed to be aware of the situation in March 2013. It doesn't appear anything happened. This is bullsh*t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh fry Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 This is the tip of the iceberg and happens in lots of programs, they just don't get caught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evans Posted June 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Guys, can you all please share this on your medical school FB pages, with friends, and news outlets? I too am sharing this with as many people as possible. I've also emailed CaRMS a link to this story. If you guys email them too, it might increase the chance that this gets their attention. Sharing this story is in all of our best interests. Say that this gets widely known: even though Cook et al. will probably get away this largely unscathed, the fact that the story blew up will be a huge deterrent for corruption/nepotism in residency programs. This means that the system will be more fair for all, and Canadians really will get the right doctors for the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGrisham Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 They already know, this was 3 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evans Posted June 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 They already know, this was 3 years ago. Wait who does? I'm a bit confused because this article came out Feb 2015. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edict Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Yeah I thought it was strange how grads from Oxford and Cambridge are not considered comparable to CMGs. But then again, how many Oxbridge grads actually want to apply to CaRMS? You pretty much have to be a Canadian citizen in order to apply to CaRMS, there aren't too many Canadians studying medicine at Oxford or Cambridge, maybe one every few years. I agree, this is nepotism at its finest but at the end of the day medicine is a lot better than so many other fields. Nepotism is almost a given in many other fields like law, business, media, arts etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGrisham Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 @evan Did you even do any research or are you capable of doing it? The guy is a PGY-3. CaRMS and UBC PGE office handled the situation to the best of their abilities back when the process carried out. The guy still ended up being the one selected, as I can imagine he was highly qualified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laika Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 @evan Did you even do any research or are you capable of doing it? The guy is a PGY-3. CaRMS and UBC PGE office handled the situation to the best of their abilities back when the process carried out. The guy still ended up being the one selected, as I can imagine he was highly qualified. The issue isn't that he was selected in the second round, it was that the spot went intentionally unfilled in the first round. The PGME office only came onto the scene by the time the second round rolled around. They dealt with it as best they could, but it doesn't change the fact that it appears the program intentionally circumvented their CaRMS agreement with their 1st round ROL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evans Posted June 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 @evan Did you even do any research or are you capable of doing it? Ouch. Just because I disagreed with your stance on another thread, doesn't mean you need to be rude. We are colleagues. The guy is a PGY-3. CaRMS and UBC PGE office handled the situation to the best of their abilities back when the process carried out. The guy still ended up being the one selected, as I can imagine he was highly qualified. Dr. Wong tried to handle the situation as well as he could, but as Laika points out the issue was Dr. Cook's actions, and possibly the actions of others involved in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Organomegaly Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 This is a relatively old story. It featured here on premed101 a few months back as well if I can recall correctly. I think that given the facts, it would be highly naïve to at least not doubt nepotism as a possible explanation for the events. Sadly, CaRMS and the UBC FacMed are highly limited in what they can do after the events actually transpire. It's not exactly easy for Dr.Wong to criticize his Director of Cardiac Surgery so publicly. It looks bad on the school. Internally, I feel things may have been different... and perhaps Dr.Cook was reprimanded in different channels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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