Questions About Doing A Second Degree

[elasticplastic]

I have decided to start a second degree this coming winter semester in order to be competitive, since it is assuredly my only chance. I have a psychology degree with a very low GPA (below 3, somewhere between 2.7 and 2.8), that I was not really interested in and barely spent any time studying. I’ve been fairly inconsisten with grades all over the place, mostly due to a lack of effort, and some personal issues.

I have taken a break, as I completed my studies 2 years ago, rethought my priorities, and want to give this a go. I know how important GPA is, and plan on putting all my effort into getting as close as possible to 4.0.

 

However, I want to be realistic, and know that only some schools take into the account only the second degree, while others tally both degree’s GPA which would render me uncompetitive no matter how well I do in my second degree.

 

What I wanted to do, was start doing the pre-reqs, try to maintain a high GPA and then start lightly looking into the MCAT after the first year, finish the degree (since I would be able to do it in 2 years with transfer credits from my other), and then focus solely on MCAT for another 3 months or before attempting it.

 

I have several ECs that can help me, working in other countries, plan on getting doctor shadowing hours through family friends, etc.

 

I plan on taking a general BSc to get my pre-reqs, so one year of my degree will mostly be just taking the chem/organic,bio, physics, and maybe some math courses that I need. What I wanted to ask here, is it worth to pursue some other degree, or should I just stick to general science? I saw a lot of people being big on kinesiology but I’m not sure if I would be able to complete that in the same amount of time, or other types of similar degrees, that could potentially open other doors.. Wanted to hear some opinions on this, and whether they'd be worth pursuing instead.

 

Also, wanted to hear some opinions on how badly my first degree GPA will affect me, if I do manage to finish the second one with great grades (let’s say a 3.9+ GPA). Will the schools that only look at the last degree, or best 2 years, really disregard my other degree or will they still look at it and see it as a blemish no matter what? And do I even have a remote chance at the schools who don’t take into account the second degree solely?  And if not, would this change if I have a great MCAT score to go along with it as well, say in the 520+ range, or would that not matter, and it’s only the cut off score that counts?

 

 

[Meridian]

If you surf this forum you will find a few success stories of people who achieved med school interviews following a long and winding path. So sure it can be done.

 

Is it reasonable at this point with your gpa to suggest you have a very good chance - not really. Most schools will look at your entire undergrad even if they exclude some portions in the gpa calc. They will still see all of your transcripts.

 

Also Doing a second degree in only 2 years - not sure that would give you enough gpa calc time for many schools without using some of your earlier results.

 

It does not matter what your second degree is. A benefit of science is it gives you prerequisites for some schools and helps you prep for mcat. You should consider your second degree also as part of a plan b as well.

 

The mcat is not easy. The score you reference is a very high percentile that very few people can achieve. Your psych background might be beneficial to some aspects of the test. Don't bank on being able to get that result in your plans without considerable prep (3 months is not a lot for many people).

 

Consider each year there are +1000 people or more with +3.85 , good ec's , and good mcat results that won't even get interviews or at best only a single interview and no Acceptance . Your competition for an interview is trying just as hard as you.

 

Ok so I rained on your parade a little, but Really it is only you who can decide if you can achieve this. Be completely honest with yourself. You would have to do an exceptional advancement . Wishing you well in your decisions.

[elasticplastic]

Yes, I thought as much. However, upon my calculations, I could potentially finish even earlier in about 1.5 years, if I do summer semesters. I read that these are not counted, so not sure if it's a wise idea, given you say even 2 years might not be enough without taking into account some earlier GPA. Fwiw, I finished the last two semesters with a higher GPA, 3.3 last one where I had 6 classes, and about 3.2 before last where I only had 4 classes (think I saw 5 is the minum for it to be considered no?). Not sure if this matters much though. I also had 2 classes that were discontinued, but those were in the first two semesters. 

 

Regarding the second degree, I assume summer classes are not worth it then, but is it worth pursuing and finishing in 2 years? Or should I take a more relaxed approach and do it in say 2.5 years (take 5 fall/winter full load semesters), and add a bunch of filler courses in there that are easy and meant to boost GPA? 

 

Or what about not even finishing the degree, and after finishing one year of the pre-reqs, I take another year of easier classes, so I can have more time for getting better ECs, begin lightly studying for the MCAT, or something along those lines? Is having a second degree an important bit, or is it more about getting 2 years of strong academic performance? 

 

And lastly, wanted to ask how competitive would I be, or what would the chances of getting an interview be after let's say hypothetically finishing with:

 

3.9 GPA after these two years.

 

Assume my ECs would be  above the average acceptance but not amazing where I have thousands of hours of lab research/published papers (already have a lot of stuff I can use here, which I'll just be adding to).

 

I know how hard the MCAT can be so let's assume I get a realistic score of somewhere in the 80th percentile, say 510. I also know in the states they place much more importance on it, and in Canada, from what I have gathered on these forums and studentdoctor, having a score much more above the cutoff is not as important. How much more of a benefit is finishing with a let's say 520 vs. a 510 be in Canada?

 

Would I have a decent chance at getting any  interview(s)  under these assumptions on a first iteration? Just for the interview, not to get in altogether. Are the chances very good, good, slim, very slim? And if I don't get in, which components should I be working on further to strengthen my application? More academia (such as doing a masters etc.), or do more EC related work? 

[m30wc0w]

Look into the second degree policies at all the schools you're applying to. Western, for instance, has really really weird second-degree policies (there's a thread about it in the Western forum.). For instance, if you finish your second degree in two years they'll count your year one and two as analogous to year 3 and 4 of a first degree with the requisite 3/5 rule. Very important to consider.

[Meridian]

Hi Elastic,

Which province are you in ?  Schools have much higher thresholds for OOP candidates.  You need to think in-province and determine which specific schools you could target.

Each school calculates their GPA cut-off's differently. The approach they use for 2nd degrees is not really tailored for an applicant to squeak in with a really low first-undergrad GPA.   They tend to forgive a poor first year or others allow to cancel out 1 or 2 low courses per year.   They do not prop up an overall <3.0 GPA.  

Your last semester 3.3GPA will not help a 2nd degree GPA calc when you need to get to a cumulative of atleast +3.8 GPA (or 3.9).  That is why your 1.5 / 2 year approach might not cut it even if you do really well.   You might be able to get to a GPA threshold at 1 school, but not many of them.

Some schools don't use MCAT or only use the CARS results.  Figure out what your in province options are based on their GPA / MCAT usage.

[elasticplastic]

I finished my initial degree at McGill, and had good grades in all math/science subjecs in HS (~90%, and finished w honors). Was not planning on pursuing this path, and did not try much in my initial Psych degree but have since reconsidered priorities and want to give this a go. I am however in NS now and would do my 2nd undergrad at Dalhousie. 

 

I did grades 4 -10 in Quebec as well, finished HS in NS, and went back. I assume I would be considered OOP for the Quebec schools should I apply there, but would I be given any sort of preferential treatment having done most of my schooling there (have a permanent code, and had QC fees, but was not born there).  

[Meridian]

So that could be a lot different than had you been in Ontario .

 

You need to figure out where you are considered in-province. From your back-and-fourth movements I would not guess.  Doing your undergrad at McGill does not qualify you as resident.  Contact McGill by phone to find out if you are in-province by their rules.  Likewise with Dal.   What province is your health insurance card ?

 

Out-of-province admission to Quebec Med-schools is probably a no-go.  McGill has only 11 seats for out-of-province and you would not get an interview with your GPA history (715 apps / 46 interviews / 11 spots  - Ave GPA = 3.95).  In-province McGill applicants have much better chances, but still difficult.  (831 app / 302 interview / 83 spots – Ave GPA=3.83)

 

Other Quebec med schools have lower GPA thresholds but would teach in French only and only accept in-province.

 

    http://www.mcgill.ca/medadmissions/applying/admissions-numbers

 

 

Out of province for Dal is likewise only 9 spots and very high competition for interviews  (600 apps for 50 interviews for 9 spots).  In-province,  the GPA threshold is only 3.3 and most people that meeting the GPA/MCAT thresholds get interviews.  Look careful at your specific residency situation now as an independent.

 

    https://medicine.dal.ca/departments/core-units/admissions/admissions/place-of-residence.html

[elasticplastic]

Well I still have my QC medi card which will expire in 2018, and have not bothered to get a new NS one yet  but should def be considered in province here. For Quebec, I could also potentially apply to the French schools since I did most of my HS education in French and was/am fluent (although maybe rusty due to lack of practice). Would it possible to be considered in province for two different ones though? 

 

Also, would I have any chance for interviews for any OOP universities in Canada, or would I mostly be confined to the IP option (i.e. Dal most likely)? I mean I see some that have lower GPA reqs but I know they do not have many OOP seats. Would they even consider me assuming I'd finish with a 3.9-4 GPA, or would my previous low GPA render me practically ineligible? 

[indefatigable]

Well I still have my QC medi card which will expire in 2018, and have not bothered to get a new NS one yet but should def be considered in province here. For Quebec, I could also potentially apply to the French schools since I did most of my HS education in French and was/am fluent (although maybe rusty due to lack of practice). Would it possible to be considered in province for two different ones though?

 

Also, would I have any chance for interviews for any OOP universities in Canada, or would I mostly be confined to the IP option (i.e. Dal most likely)? I mean I see some that have lower GPA reqs but I know they do not have many OOP seats. Would they even consider me assuming I'd finish with a 3.9-4 GPA, or would my previous low GPA render me practically ineligible?

 

The French schools have higher GPA requirements except for very specific programs (like pharmacy or physiology) where there is slight leniency. There are no second degree policies either - on the other hand the application is simple (and you can apply to related programs, but those have similar admission policies). Most admits are from CEGEP.

 

The IP/OOP split at Dalhousie is huge, but GPA/MCAT means much less relatively speaking (if you get an interview). Much more weight is on ECs and essay. McGill and/or Dal IP probably your best chance, and if you have an excellent MCAT score then Queen's and Western maybe as well (but follow their degree policy). Technically three years of excellent GPA would give you a chance at Ottawa too. All Ontario schools are very competitive, so might have a better chance at IP status.

 

In theory it's possible to have multiple IP statuses, since the criteria can be different for each faculty/province.

 

The guide: http://forums.premed101.com/index.php?/topic/90338-premed-guide-to-canadian-med-schools/

 

(ECs= non-academics & Ottawa backtracked on the MCAT).

[Meridian]

Dal points out specifically you cannot be in-province in multiple places.   Look carefully at whether you actually meet residency for Dal. You would be an independent, but would be in school full time 24 months leading up to application.  You need to call them.

 

Laval has restrictions on # of non-Quebec offers. Sherbrooke has some seats for maritime provinces.

 

All Western province schools have seat limits and higher thresholds for OOP. Some Ontario schools have regional favoritism,  but also have high cut offs for everyone.   All you can do is do the best on GPA and MCAT and see what you are eligible to apply for after 2 years.

 

General stats can be found here:

 

    https://afmc.ca/sites/default/files/documents/en/Publications/Admission_Requirements_en.pdf

[sometimesmad111]

Shit

[elasticplastic]

Update:

 

So I have completed my first semester of my second degrees. Results were quite good so far, having 5 courses and finishing with 3 A's and 2 A+. Since I started in the winter term, I was not able to do the physics and chemistry pre-reqs I wanted, but got in a physiology course, the 2 intro biology courses (one was online) that cover first year bio, an intro calculus, and a random elective.

I realize this is just a small hurdle, and there’s still more to come but, I wanted to hear some suggestions on a few things.

 

Summer courses: is there any reason to take them? I ask because I could get another set of pre-reqs done this way, but if I have to do 3 or so more semester anyway, is there a point to it? I assume if I don’t get A/A+ it will only negatively influence me, and if I do get those grades, it won’t really change anything. I’m thinking of working more on EC’s during the coming months until and leaving these for fall.

 

GPA: I have mentioned earlier I am doing the second degree at Dal, but was wondering how the grade conversion would be. I see that on the OMSAS table an A would be considered 3.9 and an A+ would be considered 4.0. Dal seems to use this scale, so are they effectively treating A’s from Dal itself as 3.9’s instead of 4? Does McGill treat it the same (since they do not have the A+)?

 

Degree questions: I’m doing my second degree in an undeclared science. I’m kind of unsure what to do next for fall, but I’m thinking something like 3 pre-req sciences (physics, chem, biology), 1 sociology, and a random elective so it doesn’t get too overwhelming with labs and the like. Also, I’m planning on pursuing a minor in either biology or chemistry (need to have at least 5 2 year + credits in the subject), would it make a big difference to attempt to get a major (think it’s 8 or 10 credits) or would it not matter much?  I know Dal doesn’t care much about a second degree, and just looks at the two best years, but was wondering about other schools too, particularly McGill and the others in Quebec. I plan on speaking to an advisor about this as well, but wanted to hear any opinions. 

 

3/5 rule, I know some schools use this, but does this apply to me? It’s not possible for me to take latter year classes in some fields I have no experience in such as physics/chem/biology (until this semester), so how could I abide by this since I need to do the intro level ones.

 

Lastly, and most importantly, I figured out my status somewhat. I would technically be eligible for both Quebec in province and NS in province. However, @Meridian said earlier in the thread that Dal says you cannot be in province at both. Still, since McGill no longer requires the MCAT, I could apply earlier there after 2 more semesters, and still be considered in province according to the 3 out of the last 5 years rule. This is because I was a QC resident during my studies (had a code permanent, and did most of my HS there as well as got financial aid), so I was paying QC resident fees during my stay at McGill.

 

I’m thinking after 2 more semesters I could apply as IP in Quebec to both McGill and the other French universities since I speak relatively fluent French, but am probably a bit rusty after a few years of speaking it little (would of course prefer to study in English though). Here I was wondering what would my chances be, to be accepted at either McGill or the French schools as an IP, if my GPA stays relatively close to 4.0 as I do 2 more semesters (and finish a third if need be as well), assuming I would have competitive EC’s? Would my first undergrad still kill me or, would I be competitive?  

 

Also, if I don’t get in to any of the Quebec ones, I would then study for the MCAT and apply as IP in NS the following year. I assume this would be fine?