Medicine in Canada now biased towards females?

[Guest UWOmalestudent]

I don't want to turn this into a big flame war or anything.

 

But statistics now show, females take 58% of the spaces, while males take up 42% of the spaces.

 

If the males are outperforming females on the MCAT, one could assume they are also outperforming them on GPA. (notice I said assume)

 

This is REALLY discouraging me from staying in Canada once I get into a medical school.

 

I am VERY interested and attracted in going to the US.

 

Can I get some HONEST feedback about your experiences with this, and why there is an obvious bias.

 

The only answer I can think of is feminism and affirmative action....

[Guest UWOMED2005]

I am male. I just finished med school. Half my class were male as well.

 

I have also participated in the admissions process. There is NO obvious bias towards females (ie affirmative action or other political machinations.)

 

The idea there you are disadvantaged as a male applying to medicine is bunk. If there's any disadvantage is slight and can very easily be overcome. . . unless you're borderline to begin with.

 

If being in class with members of the opposite sex bothers you, let me give you 3 options:

 

i) Instead of medical school, redo elementary school at an all-boys private school.

ii) Attend a monster truck rally. Usually not many women there.

iii) Build a time machine and set the dial to 1850 and do med school with Bill Osler.

[Guest medeng]

This is REALLY discouraging me from staying in Canada once I get into a medical school.

 

Do you mind if I ask why? Obviously if you don't get in to a CDN school, I can see why you would leave, but why would graduating with 60 girls and 40 guys vs. 50 girls and 50 guys make you want to leave after you get in?

[Guest nucleardove]

ROFLMAO, UWOmed2005. Humor really is the best medicine for SDN-like trolls.

 

Thank you for the reality-check of the day.

 

ND

[Guest mosquitoba]

Alright, speaking as a female student with a "medium" MCAT (34Q) and a strong GPA (4.45/4.5 for my BScH), having recently been accepted to U of M and U of C – as you said assume…. just to point out that strong MCAT doesn’t necessarily equal strong GPA. Just curious where you got your statistics from…. Last year’s class at the U of M is comprised of 30 females and 57 males (www.umanitoba.ca/facultie...004.html). If anything, this statistic, which I just happened to decide to use, indicates that there is a bias AGAINST women in medicine.

 

However, I don’t believe this to be true. I agree with UWOMED2005 – I don’t think there is a bias either way. At least, not anymore. In fact I think the medical schools put forth a tremendous effort NOT to be biased, by strictly enforcing their policy that interviewers cannot ask you certain questions about religious beliefs, sexual preference, or family plans (ie do you plan to have children? - is not an allowable question, from the interviews I went to this year), and by making sure the interviewees are aware of this policy. I don’t really understand why this perceived bias is so strongly encouraging you to pursue medical school in the states….? Are things that much different there?:rolleyes

 

mosquitoba

[Guest uteng]

I think your assumption about MCATs being a predictor of admission to med school is false too. The weight of the MCAT gets as high as 50% to get an interview at some places, but after that, I don't think it's weighted as high.

 

During an admissions talk several years ago (1999) the former director at Mac Dr. Nahmias (sp?) said that women applicants just seemed to be more well-rounded. I think Mac has a higher proportion of females than most schools.

 

I also seem to remember an admissions talk at UofT where Dr. Shandling said they received more applications from women than men, and they accordingly admitted slightly more than 50% female.

[Guest moo]

Don't think the US is much different. There were more females than males in the class of 2007 at my school. Last year more females applied to med school than males for the first time in the US.

 

Certain specialties have lots of females these days. Peds and ob/gyn are two that come to mind. In 2020, I think 70-80% of ob/gynes will be females. In next year's ob/gyn residency class at my school, there is not a single male. So don't think you can escape the "feminism and affirmative action" by coming down to the US. (I do think the overabundance of females in ob/gyn is bad... we need more of a gender balance as many females prefer male ob/gynes for various reasons)

[Guest caliente]

I don't have any stats except for the ones I've "heard" and my own personal expericences, so take it all with a grain of salt.

 

Aren't there more female undergraduates in general? And, don't females make up more than half of all university graduates, except at the PhD (maybe Masters) level? I'm sure a government report on universities has stats on this.

 

From my personal oberservations, stereotypical premed majors like biology, life sciences, biochemistry, etc, at the undergraduate level already have more female than male students. I find it quite noticable, in fact, when compared to my high school classes. The sociology and psychology courses I've taken have been overwhelmingly female, too. Even traditional male-dominate areas, like Physics, Math, Engineering, etc, are becoming less so.

 

Someone told me McMaster's med program has a fairly skewed male:female ratio. Something like 30:70. That seems a bit high, but if it's true, I'd be interested to see the male:female ratio of all applicants, of those who interviewed, and finally the ratio of those who were offered admission.

[Guest UWOmalestudent]

Thank you for your reply UWOMED2005,

 

I can see being a physician is already starting to get to your head, as it does to most of them.

 

I posted here wanting to know the perspective and experience others have had in regards to my topic.

 

The fact that you start mentioning cynical and sarcastic alternatives, shows everyone here how immature you are, which is unbecomming of a physician.

 

 

I pointed out a statistical fact, and I would like to know people's reasoning behind this statistical fact, because on all of the websites, the medical school (to be politically correct of course) insists sex is irrelevant.

[Guest PanjabiMD]

I cannot understand how the ratio of males:females in Canadian schools could possibly make someone feel as though they need to go to the US. Is it really such a big deal?

 

Just to point out, I find UWOMED2005 to be one of the most honest and helpful members on this forum.

 

PanjabiMD

[Guest UWOmalestudent]

^ Thanks for your reply

 

I find medical schools in America, on average tend to either have around 50% each male or female, or more males than females in them.

 

I do not feel applying in a country in which there is a bias is worth my time.

 

I made this topic to get personal experiences/statistics etc... in order to discuss the topic.

 

I didn't know that this would turn into a forum making fun of someone.

 

I thought we were pre-meds and/or medical students....

[Guest 007]

I agree with the above posters that the ratio is more likely to do with the breakdown of the applicant pool than med schools having a preference for one gender over the other. Also, there is no "affirmative action" in Canada is there? Aboriginal applicants are sometimes considered in a different pool, but otherwise everyone is in it together.

[Guest nucleardove]

Right you are, 007.

 

Employment Equity (canada's AA) only applies to federally regulated employers (w/ over 100 employees), public sector companies, and crown corporations. These companies need to publish annual reports on the composition of their *workforce* (e.g. NOT school applicants, AFAIK), with regards to % of women, visible minorities, aboriginals and people w/ disabilities. This composition *should* (ideally) reflect the ratios of said groups in the community at large.

 

Each employer needs to sign a certificate of "commitment to comply with equity provisions" if they wish to bid on government goods or services contracts worth $200,000 or more. Each organization needs to file an annual report outlining their progress in this area.

 

However, NO PENALTIES for non-compliance appear in the Employment Equity Act (1986).

 

So, long story short, we have NO affirmative action in Canada.

 

ND

[Guest UTStudent03]

UWOmalestudent:

 

As others have stated earlier, there is no bias against male applicants in Canada. Med schools have no policy stating that x number of matriculants must be female. Why are there more female students then? I'd say it's because more females apply (as other posters have pointed out). It has nothing to do with any policy stating that there has to be more females than males.

 

And please, there's no need to insult anyone on the board. You're judging someone based on one post, on an anonymous (for the most part) internet forum. If you want to assess someone's character using the internet then read other posts by UWOMed. You'll find that he's one of the most helpful members on the board.

 

Cheers, UT03

[Guest UWOMED2005]

A couple of points for interest's sake. . .

 

- Yes, my understanding is that there are more women than men in university in general. This is not just true in medicine.

 

- The MCAT is not weighted very heavily in most admissions decisions. It is often used as a 'flag' to ensure applicants meet certain minimum standards, even when included in the final decision (ie UWO.) Improved performance on the MCAT by one gender or the other wouldn't be reflected in the acceptance ratios.

 

- my head measures the same circumference it did one month ago. . . and the same as 4 years ago, prior to acceptance to medical school.

[Guest Ollie]

Looking at the raw numbers of males vs females in medicine is meaningless. You need to look at the composition of the applicant pool, and the acceptance rates of males vs females. If there is a difference then you need to figure out why. It's not as simple as just saying that the adcoms favour one gender over the other.

[Guest tim23]

I don't think there is any bias in Canada either, the only possible exception being Mac, they seem to have a really female oriented learning style imo, and their admissions stats reflect this ( admission % wise not just numbers). Manitoba did have more men last year but this is a reflection of the high MCAT weighting there.

[Guest strider2004]

I can see being a physician is already starting to get to your head, as it does to most of them.

 

Wow I've been a moderator on this site for almost 4 years and I've never actually seen this specific insult before, surprisingly. Of course, it insults not only UWOMED but *most* of the med students and physicians who come to this site.

 

If the males are outperforming females on the MCAT, one could assume they are also outperforming them on GPA. (notice I said assume)

 

Unfortunately this assumption actually isn't true. Everyone has stated anecdotal evidence that the ratio of females:males in undergrad classes is now weighing heavily towards females - even different than 10 years ago. This has also been noted in news reports and with a careful eye(1, 2, 3) , you will often read canadian articles about the crisis in male education - educators are looking for ways to *encourage* males to perform better at the pre-university stage. Girls are now beating guys not only in undergrad, but high school as well. I don't know about you but when I was in UWO in undergrad, I think all of the girls in my program were in the top half of the class (my major being medical biophysics). Sometimes they truly are your better half, eh?

 

McMaster is known for having more females than males and often people assume this to be because of their application process favouring extracurricular activities and personality over the GPA. However if you look caerfully at the statistics, the mean GPA at Mac is around 3.80 and the past few years Mac has changed their application criteria to be more GPA based than extracurricular based - lo and behold - there still are more females in the program! So no, this isn't feminism or affirmative action - girls are just beating buys in general!

 

This is REALLY discouraging me from staying in Canada once I get into a medical school.

This does sound like a defence mechanism.

(ie. "Oh your boyfriend broke up with you? Well you're too good for him anyway!") I'd say that the Canadian system is more open than most systems in the world. Does affirmative action in the US affect your decision to go to American schools because many schools do use it!

 

BTW, like UWOMED, I'm a guy....

 

 

 

 

 

....not a feminist....

 

 

 

 

 

 

...and heterosexual.

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi there,

 

Here is a link to an article that appeared last year in the CMAJ regarding one aspect of this subject.

 

I don't believe that Canadian medical school selection processes bias towards women or against men. Also, I don't see why the gender composition of a medical school class would be important, if your primary objective regarding medical school is to gain a good education. This shall be delivered irrespective of how many women populate a given class.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest UWOmalestudent]

^ Nice read.

 

However, it doesn't address the fact the female physicians on average work less than male physicians.

 

And with over one million Ontarians without a family physician, why schools continue to accept more females than males is beyond me.

 

For the previous posters:

 

If there is no bias in Canada, then why are there more females than males in medical school when males beat females on the MCAT? (I don't know the GPA breakdown)

[Guest quebecboy]

Here at Sherbrooke, the proportion this year is 60F/40M, but last year it was 75/25. Is it a problem? Hell no! Makes it so much more interesting during lectures...

 

Quebecboy

[Guest tim23]

to end this argument someone just needs to look at the complete list of statistics i think its from canadian federation of medical schools. there is no huge bias towards women in acceptance rate, period.

 

According to statistics there is at Mac. I don't remember exactly but women had something like a 10% better chance of acceptance then males. The GPA's were probably pretty similar but i don't remember. Personally I think this is one school whose program leans more towards as femine approach to learning, as I said before, but strider you need to double check your info on Mac before contradicting someone. Sorry for nitpicking, I actually agree with your general argument.

 

Its actually 60:40 roughly throughout university right now, its more of a sociatial thing and a failing of primary education system for boys- not girls beating the guys-imo.

 

Tim

[Guest caliente]

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[Guest Isoceles]

I find medical schools in America, on average tend to either have around 50% each male or female, or more males than females in them.

I do not feel applying in a country in which there is a bias is worth my time.

 

ha ha ha :rollin ... okay.

 

If you are truly concerned about a "bias" then according to your info you perhaps best not apply to an American school either...

[Guest tim23]

take it for what its worth (i think the mcat is @#%$) males do better on the MCAT then women, you can't argue that, just look up the complete stats on the AAMC website or the stats that I just mentioned. If you took the time to type all that it would be worth your time to look up the real stats instead of speculating to see for yourself.