The Law Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Honestly if you can't talk about a prenup with your fiance, your marriage is in trouble from the beginning. Good point. I don't necessarily think that's the case. I can see the partner being somewhat hurt by having the person try to "cover their bases" - so to speak. I know it's somewhat an idealistic notion, that you actually trust your partner and that given today's divorce rates - it is probably safer to have this type of thing out of the way, but I wouldn't even know where to begin with my partner. If you think your partner would tolerate that, then of course - go for it. Knowing some of my friends, they'd probably not be putting up with this request - to many girls, marriage is all or nothing. Either trust me and marry me, otherwise, is marriage even the appropriate step to be taking? If you have to worry about this, then maybe it isn't. I realize this is idealistic in some sense, but ask yourself - is this person WORTH maybe losing all of this for? If not, then you shouldn't be getting married to them. It is not surprising more and more people are not getting married. Let alone prenups, the mere question of getting along with someone for 30-40 years is seemingly outrageous. Its not outrageous, I've seen it happen plenty of times. As have I. It's all about communication, honesty, and supporting each other. Humans go through some real rough patches throughout their life and your partner is someone who is supposed to be by your side and helping you through those times. I think many people have unrealistic expectations about what marriage is, and about romance in general. Besides the fact that humans are often moody, can say hurtful things, be inconsiderate, stubborn, selfish, etc, etc, etc. The point is, people have to realize that there will be problems in their relationships. There will be SERIOUS problems that you will have to face. You have to decide - is this person worth it? Can they learn from their mistakes, can I learn from my mistakes, and can this relationship evolve? Of course there's going to be fighting, and you're going to want to kill each other - but marriage can succeed. There are times that it can't, obviously, but it depends... is the person worth your effort? It can be one of the most amazing things, to be married and survive all the problems you face as a couple, and to know that there is someone you can rely on, no matter what. It can happen, but it's not some instantaneous thing - it's a bond that has to evolve, if the couple truly wants it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyDude Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 The point behind a prenup is: relationships evolve. You can't apprehend the future and whether your wife/husband will bang someone else (or something along those lines). No one in right mind gets married knowingly that there are differences that have potential to escalate and separate them. It is all a bliss and remains so until the testing periods in marriages come. It takes hard work, but people rely on the other spouse to be mature and carry all the weight. The rationale behind it is weighing in the factors regarding who gets hurt more. Your partner knowing you don't trust him/her or getting broke 10-15 years down despite all the hard work. It's all speculative, and only those that go through such tribulations can understand this. For me, full knowingly the risks of marriage will probably end up getting married without a prenup and pi$$ my silly arse off my hypocrisy. Then I can blame my testosterone for not letting me think clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheena815 Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 I wouldn't even know where to begin with my partner. If you think your partner would tolerate that, then of course - go for it. Knowing some of my friends, they'd probably not be putting up with this request - to many girls, marriage is all or nothing. Either trust me and marry me, otherwise, is marriage even the appropriate step to be taking? If you have to worry about this, then maybe it isn't. I realize this is idealistic in some sense, but ask yourself - is this person WORTH maybe losing all of this for? If not, then you shouldn't be getting married to them I agree with Darla that if you can't even discuss it, that's not a good sign, but I too would find it difficult and would not know how to phrase things exactly. However, if I thought my partner was going to call off the engagement over a prenup, I'd be pretty ticked at him. I think if the financial positions were switched, I'd not be offended over a prenup request, but I admit I'd certainly be extremely flattered if I were told that one was not necessary because he trusted me so completely. I guess for me, I'd want something that did indicate that I was willing to support them.. unless they end the marriage (or do something like have an affair that makes it necessary, to me, to end the marriage) only then would I be completely unwilling to give away half my income and assets. If I ended the marriage for my own reasons, I would never cut someone loose like that. There's nothing romantic about prenups, and they are highly unidealistic. But to me, protecting yourself is important, even if its one in a million that something will go wrong. There is always a chance, whether we like to admit it or not. It wouldn't mean I wasn't as sure as humanly possible that I wanted to be with this person forever. Just like now I am so sure that I want to be a doctor. Realistically, is this going to change? No. But I always acknowledge that anything is possible, no matter how remote that possibility. I'd say that the love of your life is worth risking losing everything over, but why risk it if you do not have to? Cause ironically, if someone told me a prenup would be the end of our relationship... then they might NOT be worth risking everything over. Another thing, I know there are those who will disagree with me on this... but I do not believe it is ever a good idea to not be able to support yourself financially. Ever. I do not believe in relying on your spouse (or otherwise) to provide for you. Each person should be able to provide for themselves, even if they don't technically need to. Again, you never know what the future will bring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostintime Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Another thing, I know there are those who will disagree with me on this... but I do not believe it is ever a good idea to not be able to support yourself financially. Ever. I do not believe in relying on your spouse (or otherwise) to provide for you. Each person should be able to provide for themselves, even if they don't technically need to. Again, you never know what the future will bring. I completely agree...I never want to rely on anyone. By the same token, I don't want anyone relying on me. There can be differences in pay, but as long as each person can support themselves...that's important. I think in this day and age, yes, I would like to think "romantically" and be "till death separates us apart" blah blah...but it's really all about being realistic and practical. I see people who date for like 10+ years breaking up....like many people have said, who knows what the future will bring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheena815 Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 I completely agree...I never want to rely on anyone. By the same token, I don't want anyone relying on me. There can be differences in pay, but as long as each person can support themselves...that's important. I think in this day and age, yes, I would like to think "romantically" and be "till death separates us apart" blah blah...but it's really all about being realistic and practical. I see people who date for like 10+ years breaking up....like many people have said, who knows what the future will bring? Yeah, and its not just breakups that we have to worry about. Even with my own parents (who had no prenup) my dad had lost his well-paying job (and ended up at something he was hugely overqualified for that paid crap) at that point and whatever support he could provide was minimal and not enough to live on for himself or my mom. And my mom had spent her whole life following him around from job to job and not building a career of her own... therefore she is now stuck trying to get qualified to actually work at a job that would allow her to support herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooty Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Either trust me and marry me, otherwise, is marriage even the appropriate step to be taking? If you have to worry about this, then maybe it isn't. I realize this is idealistic in some sense, but ask yourself - is this person WORTH maybe losing all of this for? If not, then you shouldn't be getting married to them. I don't agree with this at all, slick. Trusting someone completely and covering your own assh0le from penetration are not mutually exclusive. I am 100% willing to trust and love my wife completely. I would trust her with my life and I would share everything I have with her (and I do with my girlfriend!) but that doesn't mean that I'm willing to sign over everything I've worked for regardless of what happens in the future. Sh1t happens. All this avoidance of a prenup for some idealistic notion that two people should love, trust, and be together forever is a risk not worth taking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooty Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 OP, what's your story anyways? I'm super curious. You basically created this account and started this thread to caution us against no prenup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radmanjohn Posted May 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 OP, what's your story anyways? I'm super curious. You basically created this account and started this thread to caution us against no prenup. mmmmm, well interesting discussion...... I started this to get your idealistic minds thinking....love is everything...yes....until one wants out...for whatever reason...lawyers change everything, as might the new love interest.... most docs have disability insurance, and life insurance and car insurance....but apart from taxes....probably the most expensive thing you guys will witness is divorce...and believe me a lot of you will witness it..if your partner is close to your earnings...you will come out only with emotional scars.....but in general in my experience and witnessed to others it is the male doc, that marries the cute blonde stay at home I dont want to break a nail wife that will get financially hurt..... to protect yourself...the best way even better than picking the right one (as I know opinions do change...and people that would never do this or that..start doing it...), is get a contract cohab or marriage contract... discuss it and work it out, better than years down the road with lawyers...who essentually work for themselves anyway.... for maybe 2-3K you get a contract that protects you.. most docs will lose big $$$ I lost 700K in my separation all of the assets...3K would have prevented more than 1/2 of that... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 To me, it's not about being idealistic and thinking it's impossible that we'll break up, but I still don't want to sign a prenup. As a future doc, I'll be quite buisy & it's possible that my partner would end up being a stay-at-home dad for a little while someday, in the event that we'd decide to have kids. I think the law that forces you to separate the assets exists because a stay at home partner often ends up doing much work for which he/she is not paid. I don't want my partner to be penalized for staying home, as he'd really be doing me a favor in doing so. Maybe I'll lose money, but I think it'd be fair. It comes down to personal choicies & values, I guess. No right or wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooty Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 To me, it's not about being idealistic and thinking it's impossible that we'll break up, but I still don't want to sign a prenup. As a future doc, I'll be quite buisy & it's possible that my partner would end up being a stay-at-home dad for a little while someday, in the event that we'd decide to have kids. I think the law that forces you to separate the assets exists because a stay at home partner often ends up doing much work for which he/she is not paid. I don't want my partner to be penalized for staying home, as he'd really be doing me a favor in doing so. Maybe I'll lose money, but I think it'd be fair. It comes down to personal choicies & values, I guess. No right or wrong... A prenup won't deny your partner of everything. He can still get half of what you and he earned during the course of your marriage, which I think is fair. A prenup does, however, prevent him from taking everything should you two divorce. Losing all your assets in a bitter divorce sucks a fat one when all you have to do is spend a couple of grand in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 A prenup won't deny your partner of everything. He can still get half of what you and he earned during the course of your marriage, which I think is fair. A prenup does, however, prevent him from taking everything should you two divorce. I thought the law without prenups meant the partner gets half, no more... I think that's fair in my particular situation. Of course it depends on the couple, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zuckman Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Ya, prenups RULE! I've heard of cases in the US where a man's wife cheats on him with another guy and becomes pregnant. The wife and husband separate due to the cheating and the kid that is born is not the ex-husbands. However, the ex-husband now has to pay child support!! But that's in the states...and only a few states. Zuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radmanjohn Posted May 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 I thought the law without prenups meant the partner gets half, no more... I think that's fair in my particular situation. Of course it depends on the couple, etc. Prenups, mean that the couple and not the state decide in advance if there was ever a parting of the ways how things should be done. It is done when the couple is in love and usually fair minded, not later on when the couple hates each other and will do whatever it takes to punish the other,.....which boys and girls is the way of the world...my preference would be to do the possible agreement beforehand, cheaper, fairer, and avoids a lot of confronatation down the road... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooty Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 I've heard of cases in the US where a man's wife cheats on him with another guy and becomes pregnant. The wife and husband separate due to the cheating and the kid that is born is not the ex-husbands. However, the ex-husband now has to pay child support!! That's what I call "Al Capowned." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolvenstar Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Good news is that in the last 3 I haven't known someone who has gotten a divorce. Bad news is that things might have changed slightly. Anyways I really appreciate hearing some women actually talk about if things were reversed. However if one looks at the average divorce case, the women gains the majority of the assets regardless of her job. Now some have said that when both partners are doctors that things are split more evenly, I hope this is different nowadays. Divorce is ugly, and frankly I don't know about anyone else, but I think that homemakers (I won't say housewives, because maybe male homemakers rape female wage-earners too) are given too much from us wage-earners but that's the courts fault. I agree with others who have said that many have unrealistic ideas about marriage. People are passionate and get married before they are mature enough to handle marriage properly. I believe how one is raised has alot to do with the success of marriages though. My father has 9 siblings, and I have 16 cousins. No divorces yet, and no we aren't religious so there is no influence there. Perhaps it's just me but people seem to be taking longer to mature nowadays, which is part of why back in the day a young couple at 24 getting married would last and nowadays it doesn't. Regardless of whether I believe my girlfriend is mature enough to stay married to be however I am planning on getting a prenup. Perhaps if I had more italian blood in me I would just do the good old intalian divorce involving a gun and a friend, and two shovels lol. (gotta love the ol'mafia) I think there is something to be said as well for what AndyDude said about feminism. Don't get me wrong I am glad that women are taking on more choirs and jobs that were stereotypically man's, and that it is more acceptable for men to do stereotypical feminine choirs/jobs. However that was the old feminism. After spending 2hours in a sociology class discussing feminism, where the older women[30-40ish], and the younger women[under 25] almost killed each other I have to say that most people now recognize a difference between then and now. As one mother who was comming back to university for more education said: "Feminism in the past was about equality. Feminism today is about getting the upper hand on men." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Cave Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 I would just do the good old intalian divorce involving a gun and a friend, and two shovels lol. (gotta love the ol'mafia) Wow. Be sure to include that your personal essay............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_B Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 It is because of threads like this that romance is dead Is it responsible to get a prenup, of course it is… But is it romantic? Personally, I don’t see the point. If you love someone enough to get married, you also love someone enough to take the risks, and face the challenges of the future. Marriage, for me, was a celebration of my love for my wife, and a declaration that we will do what ever it takes to make things work forever. If I wasn’t willing to say forever, I wouldn’t have gotten married. Money matters, and god forbid in 30 years I don’t look back at this and have that regret, but to me, a prenup is a way of saying “I love you so much I want to marry you, but really, I don’t have the faith in us forever….maybe a few years, but not forever, so just in case….for me of course.” So yeah, using your head, it is a good idea, but in matters of the heart like this, I want to be an idealist, or naïve, because the alternative isn’t worth the “price”. And to John, I’m sorry you had to go through that, and I appreciate the advice….but I guess for me,… ignorance is bliss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supafield Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 It is because of threads like this that romance is dead Is it responsible to get a prenup, of course it is… But is it romantic? Personally, I don’t see the point. If you love someone enough to get married, you also love someone enough to take the risks, and face the challenges of the future. Marriage, for me, was a celebration of my love for my wife, and a declaration that we will do what ever it takes to make things work forever. If I wasn’t willing to say forever, I wouldn’t have gotten married. Money matters, and god forbid in 30 years I don’t look back at this and have that regret, but to me, a prenup is a way of saying “I love you so much I want to marry you, but really, I don’t have the faith in us forever….maybe a few years, but not forever, so just in case….for me of course.” So yeah, using your head, it is a good idea, but in matters of the heart like this, I want to be an idealist, or naïve, because the alternative isn’t worth the “price”. And to John, I’m sorry you had to go through that, and I appreciate the advice….but I guess for me,… ignorance is bliss. I agree completely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest begaster Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Ignorance is only blissful if you are allowed to remain ignorant. If you do end up divorced (and it may very well happen, especially as a doctor), that ignorance will be ripped right out of you, and you'll be taken to the cleaners. I imagine the OP was idealistic about love too. I imagine most of us would like to be. But idealism isn't reality. The reality is that we should do what intelligent people do and learn from his mistakes, instead of allowing the possibility for those mistakes to become ours as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolvenstar Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Ignorance is only blissful if you are allowed to remain ignorant. If you do end up divorced (and it may very well happen, especially as a doctor), that ignorance will be ripped right out of you, and you'll be taken to the cleaners. I imagine the OP was idealistic about love too. I imagine most of us would like to be. But idealism isn't reality. The reality is that we should do what intelligent people do and learn from his mistakes, instead of allowing the possibility of those mistakes to become ours as well. Blessed be, I thank god we have another realist posting. Oh and just to note on the whole romance is dead issue. This has nothing to do with romance. I won't get married without a prenup period, but anyone who knows me tells me how much of a hopeless romantic I am (some don't think it to be a good thing lol). I will be sure to include that I have a sense of humor Dr. Cave, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpanishFly Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 I think in this day and age, yes, I would like to think "romantically" and be "till death separates us apart" blah blah...but it's really all about being realistic and practical. I see people who date for like 10+ years breaking up....like many people have said, who knows what the future will bring? typical doctor I started this to get your idealistic minds thinking...but in general in my experience and witnessed to others it is the male doc, that marries the cute blonde stay at home I dont want to break a nail wife that will get financially hurt..... John lol dude, we're premed, I'm pretty sure we all stopped being idealists about anything in the womb. And as for marrying the cute blonde...I hate to rub salt on wounds, but isn't that kind of what men get for picking a girl who's not willing to work for fear of breaking a nail? (I'm not talking specifically about your case, or that your ex is an airhead or anything like that, but in general) I think that the situation of whether you should get a prenup will differ depending on the type of person you're involved with. Somebody whos busted their butt just as hard as you have your whole lives probably won't benefit as much as the "stay at home and get my nails done every day" type...if you notice all the high profile cases where the woman gets everything usually involves the latter type of female. Perhaps if I had more italian blood in me I would just do the good old intalian divorce involving a gun and a friend, and two shovels lol. (gotta love the ol'mafia) lol you sure you want to be a doctor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolvenstar Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 typical doctor And as for marrying the cute blonde...I hate to rub salt on wounds, but isn't that kind of what men get for picking a girl who's not willing to work for fear of breaking a nail? (I'm not talking specifically about your case, or that your ex is an airhead or anything like that, but in general) Well first off not all attractive women are dumb. Secondly before dating or marriage even starts, who tries to pick up an ugly/fat woman? (not that hard working women are ugly, just saying that not all women are attractive) Thirdly why should it be wrong for a guy to want to marry a woman who is a housewife? If i get married, I expect my wife to stay at home with the kids...although I will concede to working less hours as well, but it's for the kids. I think that the situation of whether you should get a prenup will differ depending on the type of person you're involved with. Somebody whos busted their butt just as hard as you have your whole lives probably won't benefit as much as the "stay at home and get my nails done every day" type...if you notice all the high profile cases where the woman gets everything usually involves the latter type of female. Lol only the more publicized cases were with bimbos. My boss and good friend took almost everything from her old hubby. Lol god bless her cold cold heart. Secondly this arguement doesn't work because alot of failed marriages happen when people are still puppy-dogged over each other and could never see their other divorcing them. So almost everyone is going to think they won't need a prenup. If I marry my girl I honestly doubt I will need a prenup but I am still getting one. It doesn't hurt anything to have one, so why not? lol you sure you want to be a doctor? What!? Can't a guy create a little job security? lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svp2k5 Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 I don't know if this was mentioned (i didn't read all five pages), but prenups in the OP case probably wouldn't have done anything. If you married your wife in medical school, all income from the point on is considered joint income and would be divided in the case of a divorce. Prenups are effective for those who have significant wealth prior to marriage. So if you got married after ten years of practice it might make a difference, but getting one before you make any money is pretty much pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_B Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Ignorance is only blissful if you are allowed to remain ignorant. If you do end up divorced (and it may very well happen, especially as a doctor), that ignorance will be ripped right out of you, and you'll be taken to the cleaners. I imagine the OP was idealistic about love too. I imagine most of us would like to be. But idealism isn't reality. The reality is that we should do what intelligent people do and learn from his mistakes, instead of allowing the possibility for those mistakes to become ours as well. I guess that's kinda my point above though. For some, it is a mistake not to get a prenup, but for myself, where I am now, it would be a mistake to get one. Idealism isn't reality, true...but for myself, and many on this board, reality is something that we still see in our idealism. My future with my wife isn't set, so the reality may well mesh with our idealism. Like I said, I agree that "practically" a prenup is a good idea, but I don't remember anything being practical about these matters. It only seems that way in hindsight, when one is being practical. Besides, I have no money now, so it didn't matter in my case anyways, so perhaps I'd have seen it differently. I just think that if you are concerned about a prenup, you may not be ready to make the committment of marriage. Marriage is a serious union, and yes, you may still get burned if you understand that,....but that is the risk you take when you bind yourself to another person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooty Posted May 29, 2008 Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 I guess for me,… ignorance is bliss. I agree completely omfg wtf is wrong with you people.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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