missy10 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 cling if you want to be a doctor so bad why would you chose eng in the first place then? why not pick kin/health sci if it is clearly an "easier" (better? haha) path to medschool... not very smart on your behalf if you ask me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princess19 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Health Sciences: The program is innovative, and the majority of students are very bright. Most do seem to make really good med students and residents. The only problem with health scie is overt grade inflation - and yes - medical staff at MAC are even aware of the problem. Com Eng at Waterloo and Health Scie have nearly the same entering high school averages - Health Sci students have marks 15-20% higher than the Waterloo students. That is a straight forward example. No university program should have an A- average at university. The students do work very hard - but so do students in many other programs. if this is true that no university program should have an A- average, how do you explain the health sci students' A- average in organic chemistry, compared to the class average of at least 20% lower? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n00b Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 if this is true that no university program should have an A- average, how do you explain the health sci students' A- average in organic chemistry, compared to the class average of at least 20% lower? What's there to explain? Put a group of engineers in an intro calc class and they'll smoke everyone else too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n00b Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 So using your logic, all engineering classes should have an A- average, yes? But let's not stop there. Put a group of English majors in an intro writing class and they'll probably kill the math majors. Therefore, all English major classes should have an A- average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n00b Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Can I get a hell yeahhhhh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princess19 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 i don't quite understand your argument. what i am saying is that organic chemistry is offered by the science department, so health sci students do not take it through their own faculty. if grade inflation is so high in health sci, how do you explain their consistent earning of an A- average in other non-health sci courses such as orgo, compared to their science/engineering classmates who receive at least 20% lower? it kind of takes away from the argument that no program should have an A- average, because health scis generally tend to earn that average in any course they take no matter what the discipline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Cartier Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 hahahahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n00b Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 i don't quite understand your argument. what i am saying is that organic chemistry is offered by the science department, so health sci students do not take it through their own faculty. if grade inflation is so high in health sci, how do you explain their consistent earning of an A- average in other non-health sci courses such as orgo, compared to their science/engineering classmates who receive at least 20% lower? it kind of takes away from the argument that no program should have an A- average, because health scis generally tend to earn that average in any course they take no matter what the discipline. you don't quite understand my argument. what i am saying is that calculus is offered by the math department, so engineering students do not take it through their own faculty. how do you explain engineers' consistent earning of a higher average in other non-engineering courses such as calc, compared to their science/arts classmates who receive lower average grades? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princess19 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 first of all, is that a proven fact or is that speculation? you cannot assume that engineers' do better than other students taking calculus unless you have proof...such as in my example where the orgo professor actually calculates the averages separately and gives this info to the class. i think you are misinterpreting MY argument. grade inflation is not being brought up as an issue within the engineering faculty so whether or not they actually DO achieve higher calculus grades is not really relevant. if health scis maintain their same "impossible" A- average despite what department is assigning their grades, maybe it is not a regular program... no that does not mean health sci students are smarter, better, more brilliant etc than students from any other program. grades measure many things, but they don't measure intelligence so that is not up for discussion. however, seeing as health sci is comprised of very high achieving students (as evidenced by the rigorous selection process), i don't see why it is an issue that they continue to be high achieving in university, whether they're taking health sci courses or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HBP Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 is orgo your only example? you keep bringing that up. either way, my neuroscience program section had an A average in PSL302 (C average course). neuroscience specialist courses do not have anywhere near an A average, mostly B-. your point is moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cling Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 you don't quite understand my argument. what i am saying is that calculus is offered by the math department, so engineering students do not take it through their own faculty. how do you explain engineers' consistent earning of a higher average in other non-engineering courses such as calc, compared to their science/arts classmates who receive lower average grades? Well, no kidding. However, even if these engineering students kill the Calc class, with abysmally high grades, it doesn't mean they have a class average abysmally high in the mandatory engineering courses, unlike the health sci. The fact that health science students can do good in other classes be it geography or english or even a science course doesn't mean that their program average should be curved to A-. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missy10 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 just be happy that you are in a great program that allows it's students a better chance at meds or other profacs. its a lil difficult to "just be happy" when your 4 year degree you worked your ass off for gets trashed by a bunch of ppl who dont know what they are talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cling Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 its a lil difficult to "just be happy" when your 4 year degree you worked your ass off for gets trashed by a bunch of ppl who dont know what they are talking about You should be happy and enjoy it while it lasts. You are getting a major break in terms of GPA. The degrees that are getting trashed are largely engineering programs, specialist programs at UofT, and so on. They are not getting trashed by students, but rather the med school admissions committees (indirectly of course) by assuming that an A at a challenging program such as engineering is equal to an A in an extremely grade inflated program such as health science. So yeah, be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n00b Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Well, no kidding. However, even if these engineering students kill the Calc class, with abysmally high grades, it doesn't mean they have a class average abysmally high in the mandatory engineering courses, unlike the health sci. The fact that health science students can do good in other classes be it geography or english or even a science course doesn't mean that their program average should be curved to A-. um yeah dude, that was my point pls note the sarcasm, ie. i basically copied her post and changed the program names Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cling Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 um yeah dude, that was my point pls note the sarcasm, ie. i basically copied her post and changed the program names I agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Single-comment Posted April 26, 2009 Report Share Posted April 26, 2009 Perhaps someone like you is not cut out for medicine. Your first year, even if taking into account immaturity and family problems, was atrocious. Your 2nd yr was not good, and even your third year would not garner reasonable minimum requirements at any med school in ontario unless you were from the north, mature, aboriginal or francophone (and even then, your first two years would sink you). Presuming a 3.85 next yr is a very very strong presumption. And even your MCAT is not that great...certainly not enough to compensate for your first two years. Right now in Ontario, hundreds of people with 3.85 GPAs (that are commulative) are not getting into meds. And ALOT of them have great personalites, are brilliant, etc. The carrib might be your best choice - but even the top carib schools (like st georges) might be out of your reach. You might be able to get into the us with a residency in family medicine or internal medicine in a sparsely populated state, and as staff receive lower pay rates than those trained at med schools that have real standards for admission. With the us economy as it is, and health care reform coming, the days of foreign doctors with low credentials moving to the us to make a fortune are probably coming to an end. Honestly, IF YOU WERE A PATIENT, would you want your doctor to be someone that did medicine only for a selfish personal dream (possibly encouraged by parents) with poor academic credentials, or someone who had both the drive, maturity and academic credentials to be a doctor. I was just browsing through this website to get some info for my friend and I read this comment and just had to respond.... You are making a common error, you are assuming that this person's GPA is a marker of their total intellectual ability and further assuming that intellect is the most essential component to being a doctor. ---To Student Making Original Request ------- First of all many very bright people who work really hard don't get the marks they desire, predominantly because they are not studying correctly. I worked with an academic counseling organization for the last two years and you can drastically change your performance by changing the way you study (not just for how long). Second, sadly not all courses are the same. Here is a personal example, in 2nd year I was in a very challenging program. I went to the library at 8am to 12 pm pretty much every day only leaving for classes, labs, and the occasional work and volunteer work. I received an award for the highest GPA in my program (for that year) but I only had 3.75. In third year my research interest changed and I decided to take only biology and psychology course.... I worked about 1/2 as hard because I took on many more volunteer roles and ta positions ... I ended up with a 3.97. I don't in anyway pretend I am smarter, work harder, or possess any other intellectual gifts. It is just a matter of taking courses you can do well in and studying efficiently. Here is my advice... try seeing an academic counselor who might be able to help you learn how to study better or at least point you in the right direction. Then take how ever long you need to get your GPA where you need it. A fifth year is amazingly common. PS: I'd love a doctor who is passionate and dedicated to their dream of medicine. And personally, one of the most important features in deciding what GP to go to is bed side manner. No doctor, no matter how good, is useful if you can't share with them often embarrassing, and private information Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsage Posted April 26, 2009 Report Share Posted April 26, 2009 Perhaps someone like you is not cut out for medicine...Blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda Good God, get over yourself. I haven't seen this level of self-righteous vitriol in ages. Having a bad day? Need to take it out on the OP? Stop being an ass. To the OP, as this debate has seemingly morphed into an online penis measuring contest (NO NO, MINE'S WAY BIGGER! I CAN PROVE IT, I WENT TO <insert school/program>, let me give you a few words of advice. You have a long road, and you know this. That's good. Basically, you're out of the running in quite a few schools. The ones left are Queen's and Western if you're in Ontario. Different ones if you're not alongside those two. These two schools forgive past transgressions. Your marks and your history will not matter as long as you have two solid years (think, 3.8+), and you meet the MCAT cutoffs. As such, you can ignore pompous *******s who tell you that your past will bury you alive. It won't. Focus on the future, do well this year and next, and you can score some interviews. That being said, this is an insanely horrific process. Don't go into a MSc just because you think it will help you get accepted. The only schools it will help you with are schools that look at your cumulative GPA anyway, a cutoff that you won't meet. To cling: So much rage. To Descartes: Let me reply to the notion that Computer Engineers at Waterloo have the same insane admissions average as HS students at Mac, but do not get an A- average in their courses. That is a fine point, but you miss something rather obvious - Computer Engineers at Waterloo are in that prestigious program to become engineers with that very degree. They do not need an A- to do so. Graduating with a C from an engineering program at Waterloo will still make you a very, very attractive choice for many companies (who will focus more on where you interned than what grades you earned). Health Science students at Mac, on the other hand, are there to use their degree as a stepping stone to professional/grad schools. They need their A- and it would be asinine to curve against them when they could go to any other biology program in the country and get a straight A. If you set the program to a C-average, it would essentially eliminate the prestige of the program, because most high-achieving students would avoid it like the plague, choosing to go into neuroscience, kinesiology, psychology, biology, chemistry, or what have you instead. Kids in this program do well because they're smart, ambitious, and hard-working, like the Computer Engineers at Waterloo. The difference is that graduating with a C from the former will lead you to working retail, while graduating with a C from the latter can still have you at Microsoft or IBM a month later. If they are averaging out A- in every other science course and you want to be able to attract them to your program, you damn well better keep the average grades up. PS - I do not go to Mac, nor Waterloo, so I have no horse in this race. I just understand that, all things being equal, it makes sense for a program that has an admissions average of 95ish percent to contain more A students than one that has an average in the 70s or low 80s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobloblawslawblog Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 I don't know...it is very blunt and honest advice. Telling someone that they will be competitive with those stats is bottom line misleading. It's simple as that. If you like treating patients, your best bet is an advanced nursing degree. You will have a chance to diagnose, treat and care and more importantly, it is within your reach. I agree with Descartes, and you should definitely have a plan B and C careers clear in mind. 3/4 of my class in 1st year said they wanted to be doctors, but ultimately many give up that dream following 1st or 2nd year due to their grades. You can try getting a 35+ MCAT and apply to states. Otherwise, regardless what you score in 4th year, you are not a tough contender in any system. p.s. Don't get mad. Consider us your free guidance counsellor Why should anyone take advice on their life from someone who doesn't know them? Who the hell are you anyways to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do? Do you think this person is unaware of their grades and how they stand in relation to other pre-med candidates? Do you think they haven't considered other options? This individual is trying and clearly wants it if they're spending an entire year getting better grades. Shut your mouth, worry about yourself and don't put down someone elses goals. If you think it's a waste of their time, then let them worry about that. My comments to the person whom we are talking about...work your ass off and git 'er done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cling Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 Health Science students at Mac, on the other hand, are there to use their degree as a stepping stone to professional/grad schools. They need their A- and it would be asinine to curve against them when they could go to any other biology program in the country and get a straight A. If you set the program to a C-average, it would essentially eliminate the prestige of the program, because most high-achieving students would avoid it like the plague, choosing to go into neuroscience, kinesiology, psychology, biology, chemistry, or what have you instead. Exactly! By the way, do you maybe think other degrees might be a stepping stones as well? Comp Sci program at Waterloo is well known for the quality of education in the information technology field. UofT specialist programs are well known for being taught by some of the global leaders in the field. Now as you point out, the prestige of the Health Sci comes from a stepping-stone GPA. It is easy to see why UofT and UofW are prestigious. But Health Sci? Any university program can just ask for 90s in high school and give 90s in university. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsage Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 So what is your point? You hate HS because it's a prestigious program and you don't think prestige should exist outside of Waterloo and U of T? Okay, got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n00b Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Why is mac health sci prestigious besides the high admissions average? is there something special in the program? serious question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tree999 Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 I guess it's unique in a couple ways -- first, it's a broader perspective of health than you would get in your average "life science" or basic science program. Second, there's a lot of group work, self-directed learning, and small classes that might be considered unusual in most large undergrad schools. Third, it's famous for getting kids into med school Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cling Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Remember, HS is not officially premed - even if it functionally acts that way. Here are the stats for the Mac health sci: http://fhs.mcmaster.ca/bhsc/documents/bhscgrads07-08.pdf http://fhs.mcmaster.ca/bhsc/documents/bhscgrads06-07.pdf for more... http://fhs.mcmaster.ca/bhsc/graduates.html For the 07/08 year, 39% got into meds. For the 06/07 year, 48% got into meds. For the 05/06 year, 44% got into meds. Pretty high stats. Can anyone find the Harvard or other Ivy league stats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missy10 Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Here are the stats for the Mac health sci: http://fhs.mcmaster.ca/bhsc/documents/bhscgrads07-08.pdf http://fhs.mcmaster.ca/bhsc/documents/bhscgrads06-07.pdf for more... http://fhs.mcmaster.ca/bhsc/graduates.html For the 07/08 year, 39% got into meds. For the 06/07 year, 48% got into meds. For the 05/06 year, 44% got into meds. Pretty high stats. Can anyone find the Harvard or other Ivy league stats? Awe cling stop flattering us... we try to be modest Remember.. there are more determinants to getting into meds other than GPA ... we still have to get by the interview as well as do well on the MCAT... and by these stats we must do well at all three so thanks for backing up my point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cling Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Awe cling stop flattering us... we try to be modest No..you really don't. Remember.. there are more determinants to getting into meds other than GPA ... we still have to get by the interview as well as do well on the MCAT... Well, Descartes said earlier that roughly half of HealthSci students that get into medicine get into Mac Med, which didn't require the MCAT. It is safe to say that the majority of Health Scis who got into meds, got admitted to schools that didn't require the MCAT (Mac&Ottawa). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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