Not sure what to do. Need advice.

[princess19]

p.s. if health sci sucks sooo much why was there a recent article about it in the star

 

http://www.thestar.com/article/513637

[Halcyon]

So what's a pre-med to do, who is not in Mac Health Sci?

[n00b]

now that's what i call a massive pwnage

[Alastriss]

Lol haha.

 

Cling if i am not mistaken, the info you posted was for health science students in the US applying to US. Doesn't really help as much as if it were data for health science students in canada applying to canada.

 

And princess19, Mac made the news because their program is "interesting". Pedophiles and serial killers make the news too, but that doesn't make them awesome or super cool.

 

Why do we keep forgetting that people from mac and have the mac philosophy are more likely to be accepted by mcmaster? or that they themselves accept mcmaster because they like the learning style over other schools? Those are two separate variables. Unless the statistic for mac kids going to ottawa is very high then no argument is really made.

[japlanet]

So what's a pre-med to do, who is not in Mac Health Sci?

 

Work their ass off?

[Halcyon]

Work their ass off?

 

Create more Health Sci programs like the Mac one?

[cling]

Princess19: The issue at bay is not whether Health Science sucks or has bad students. Most students are very bright, and most make good doctors. The issue is that marks in the program are easier to come by than they should.

 

The average mark coming in is around 95%, but range from 90-99%. The supplemental app makes the big difference once a gr 12 average of >90% is made. That is why many 98% applicants get rejected, and many 92% ones get in. Not all students in the program have high 90 averages. The actual admissions average is similar to the precursor MAC prestige program, arts and science. What is important to note is that Arts and Science still had no where near high marks average of Health Science students, despite a similar high achieving demographic.

 

 

" +1"

[Carabiner]

Princess19: The issue at bay is not whether Health Science sucks or has bad students. Most students are very bright, and most make good doctors. The issue is that marks in the program are easier to come by than they should.

 

<snip>

 

If two identical twins with the same credentials got into health sciences, and one went to UofT science instead - the person at MAC with the same effort will statistically get much better grades. Several programs at other universities have similar entering averages as Health Sci - but much lower mark distributions. I suspect the small group atmosphere precludes impartial evaluations that might be harsher in larger groups (and accurate).

 

Whether the health sci students do well or not on the MCAT is immaterial - they already have a boost in their cGPA compared to people in other universities.

 

PS while PBL learning has been acclaimed by some academics as a remarkable learning device beyond reproach, it has at times failed students at MAC. In 2006, an incredible 12-13 MAC meds grads failed the licensing exam. UWO, UofT and Queen's had 1 failure combined I believe that year.

Just out of curiosity, Descartes, as this thread's resident ex-adcom member ... When you still were on the admissions committee and deciding whom to give interviews to, did you judge graduates from Health Sciences programs more harshly, to account for the alleged grade inflation? It's pretty clear from this thread that you don't think Health Sci grads worked as hard for their high marks as other graduates have; do you think this affected the way you graded med school applicants?

[Carabiner]

PS: I think it's kind of funny that the discussion from the "Is Health Sci a bird program" thread bled into this thread instead. Sorry, Crispersdelight, and best of luck with whatever you do.

[n00b]

mcmaster EXPOSED

[cling]

mcmaster EXPOSED

 

Hey, maybe we can send this thread link to some newspapers. After all, the Mac health sci students seem to crave news coverage.

[n00b]

i doubt they would care to read through an anonymously sent link of 20 pages on material they don't know about

[cling]

i doubt they would care to read through an anonymously sent link of 20 pages on material they don't know about

 

Ok, lets put together a summary.

[n00b]

let's do it

[cling]

let's do it

 

Ok. What is the scope of the story going to be?

 

Something like:

Disparity in inter-departmental grading practices and it's implications in the way the doctors of tomorrow are chosen?

 

Or should we write a follow up story to the Toronto Star story, explaining the origin of the Health Science program's prestige.

 

Both? Oh I love your enthusiasm!

 

p.s. I now realize this effort will require collaboration, but since we did not go through Health Sciences we might be in deep trouble here. Should we ask them for some help?

[cling]

Noob and Cling.

 

Aside from gross grade inflation in Health Sci, there is nothing McMaster did that is overly scandalous. Yes, some actions may leave a bad taste in the mouth. But grade inflation is now everywhere, at all universities (even, to some degree the veritable UofT and McGill). A lot of it has to do with alumni parents that complain to universities if children do poorly, faculty heads that want higher pass rates to boast about, and the pressures university officials have to increase prestige and attraction to prospective students.

 

Ok, that is a valid point. So grade inflation is everywhere, and Health Sci is just an obvious example. Fine. So what can be done to the med school admissions system to limit the effect of grade inflation? It is also present in USA, but it seems their system acknowledges this in several ways:

 

-BCMP gpa and "Other" gpa

 

-MCAT is weighted heavily as it is the most objective measure of academic performance. Also, reliable, no "bird" MCATs. They all suck equally

 

-undergrad major is considered at some subjective level. You will get a break if you did undergrad at MIT and pulled a measly 3.5 gpa. Adcom understands you were competing in a really difficult environement, with incredibly bright people.

 

- your motivations and life story is also weighted heavily.

[n00b]

yeah i agree with cling

[Retsage]

Hahahaha. Writing a report based on this thread. You cannot be serious, can you? Nobody is that truly out of touch with reality, right?

[cling]

The US system has many many negatives as well.

 

1. Most US schools are under great pressure to have diversity in their class. While a great notion morally, bean counting often leads to quotas and in many cases considerably lowered standards so classes have the right 'look'. This does not exist in Canada yet, aside from preferences for a small number of spots to aboriginals (and african-canadians at Dalhousie).

I think you are forgetting the whole SWOMEN/NONSWOMEN deal. You are forgetting that we have an ENTIRE medical school dedicated to rural "beans". Plus aboriginals. Plus the French-speaking quota. We are counting beans, don't kid yourself. Anyhow, we can leave these things out. We can just take the good and leave AA out of the question.

 

2. Because of the large US population, most non-state schools get a huge number of applications. Invterview offers are often very random as a result.

That is true in Canada, too. McMaster admissions system. Ottawa admissions system. Very random, very large number of apps. It is nothing unique to US. We have that too. However, we have less such schools, so it might be convenient to think it less of a problem here. However, when you look at the seat proportion of such "mystery" schools in Ontario, the number is close to 40% of all seats.

 

3. Admission committees are more secretive. Relatives and friends of admission committee members seem to have little trouble getting in at some schools.

It is naive to think this doesn't happen in Canada. Why would you think this doesn't happen in Canada?

 

 

Most schools have cutoffs listed, and have precise pre-med requirements. If one does not get an interview, one knows why.

Sure, the instructions are clear cut. A GPA of 3.0 and up is deemed competitive for McMaster. There are no prereq's. There are 5K apps. Are you sure that 4.5k of rejected people know exactly why they didn't get in? They did make the cutoffs after all...

 

 

All the Canadian schools vary their system up a bit too...so one with a poor MCAT still has a chance, and one with a mediocore GPA still has a chance.

Sure someone with a mediocre GPA has a chance. Also, I am reading Mediocre no less than 3.75. The average admitted GPA in USA is less than 3.7.

 

 

The US system has a strong bias for IVY or prestige schools. While reasonable to some degree, some very challenging public schools (including U Mich, U Virgininia, and even some UC schools) get shortchanged.

We have a strong bias for programs with high GPAs. Therefore, UofT students, engineers and others get shortchanged. It is not a direct thing like the Ivy league transcript, but it is still present.

 

 

But it is less fair - rejection from a US school pre-interview is usually a big black hole and one does not really know why. Rejection from a Can med school pre-interview is usually pretty clear.

Reading the preinterview rejection threads from UofO, UofT and Mac challenge what you say.

 

 

There is no perfect system. The system is always "unfair" to the rejected applicant - but society as a whole does not care ore even suffer, as long as all the spots are filled with competent individuals.

 

True, but the society is not who is running the competition. It is like saying that the fans will still enjoy hockey, even if some players are on crack. Well, sure!! However, from the aspect of actual players, who put in their hardest work, you can bet it matters that everyone is on level ice. It's why the fans don't set standards of the game and it is why the society is not who votes on the med school admissions criteria. Medicine is a profession, which by definition is self-defining, self-overseeing and self-regulating the affairs of its members. Society has nothing to do with it. Just because medicine is a profession which is of service to society, it doesn't imply that society should have the final (or any) say in terms of policy surrounding medicine, be it admissions criteria or the official CPR protocol.

[n00b]

cling took the words right out of my mouth.

 

Great post.

[princess19]

noob & cling. you guys are hilarious. thanks for all of the laughs on this thread. i really hope you contact the newspapers as i'm sure they'll find it equally amusing.

[n00b]

lol i was serious about the content of the posts but i was being sarcastic about writing up a report to send to newspapers

[A-Stark]

Just a few thoughts to add...

 

1) I'm not aware of any seats set aside for African Canadians at Dal. Even if there are, not one was filled last year, and I have little doubt that the handful of students (loosely) fitting that demographic got in on any basis other than their own merits.

2) In response to cling, I'm not aware of any nepotism in the admissions office benefiting friends/family. Unlike many US schools, there is no explicit favouritism for children/relatives of alumni and the like (it certainly didn't help me at UofT ).

3) "Society" must certainly has a "say" in the constitution and functioning of med schools. Were that not the case, I rather doubt that provincially-funded undergrad and postgrad spaces would exist. But they do - all across the country. Physicians enjoy the priviledge of self-regulation in many respects, but this is guaranteed through Act of Parliament not any kind of intrinsic or inviolate autonomy.

[cling]

3) "Society" must certainly has a "say" in the constitution and functioning of med schools. Were that not the case, I rather doubt that provincially-funded undergrad and postgrad spaces would exist.

 

You are implying that the only reason society would invest in training new doctors is just to have a say in the functioning of med schools. You said it, and I agree: that argument doesn't hold water. Society invests in the medical profession because medicine strives to maintain the society's health and wellbeing. It is self interest, all right. However, it is in society's best interest to let the professionals (those with specialised educational training, the purpose of which is to supply disinterested counsel and service to others, for a direct and definite compensation, wholly apart from expectation of other business gain-<wiki) decide for the best way to go about providing this service.

[Alastriss]

You are implying that the only reason society would invest in training new doctors is just to have a say in the functioning of med schools. You said it, and I agree: that argument doesn't hold water. Society invests in the medical profession because medicine strives to maintain the society's health and wellbeing. It is self interest, all right. However, it is in society's best interest to let the professionals (those with specialised educational training, the purpose of which is to supply disinterested counsel and service to others, for a direct and definite compensation, wholly apart from expectation of other business gain-<wiki) decide for the best way to go about providing this service.

 

What are you saying now cling? do you disagree with some rural programs that are put into place here in Canada? There is a difference between diversifying for the sake of diversity and diversifying for the sake of increasing medical availability and accessibility in Canada (based on its demographics).