A-Stark Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 you don't quite understand my argument. what i am saying is that calculus is offered by the math department, so engineering students do not take it through their own faculty. how do you explain engineers' consistent earning of a higher average in other non-engineering courses such as calc, compared to their science/arts classmates who receive lower average grades? I take it you've never marked/TAed first-year calculus. I did it for two years and a summer (including tutorials, marking quizzes, finals, etc.). The engineers were fairly numerous and generally did alright. They were always competent, with the odd ones who were either exceptionally talented or exceptionally bad. Biology students were always better, though, and more conscientious. Physics students were the only ones who did better. Math majors (those who weren't on the way to dropping out of the program in second year) were usually anywhere in between. (The worst were usually in CS, econ, and business.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 I take it you've never marked/TAed first-year calculus. I did it for two years and a summer (including tutorials, marking quizzes, finals, etc.). The engineers were fairly numerous and generally did alright. They were always competent, with the odd ones who were either exceptionally talented or exceptionally bad. Biology students were always better, though, and more conscientious. Physics students were the only ones who did better. Math majors (those who weren't on the way to dropping out of the program in second year) were usually anywhere in between. (The worst were usually in CS, econ, and business.) If I had to guess I would say the biology students were probably better because they didn't have to take that course? Isn't it pretty rare for calculus to be required biology course, and if so there is usually a life science specific variant (guelph has that). It wouldn't surprise me that biology student who are good at math would go out of their way to chose calculus as an elective. All hings on my assumption though Bit confused what the original point was here - no one would really surprised that most health science people are in fact smart, particularly in biology and chemistry type coures, and most engineers are also in fact smart and particularly good at math dependent courses. This is all regardless to who is actually providing the course. Kind of playing to the stereotypes here aren't we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Well, lots of first-year bio majors are convinced they need to take calculus for the MCAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princess19 Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 No..you really don't. Well, Descartes said earlier that roughly half of HealthSci students that get into medicine get into Mac Med, which didn't require the MCAT. It is safe to say that the majority of Health Scis who got into meds, got admitted to schools that didn't require the MCAT (Mac&Ottawa). this is laughable. as a health sci i can assure you the majority do not get into mac. alot do, but they get into every other medical school as well. our dean informed us that health scis make up ~12% of the med school class at queens and from 10 - 12% of the classes at uwo & u of t. all mcat schools...hmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cling Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 this is laughable. as a health sci i can assure you the majority do not get into mac. alot do, but they get into every other medical school as well. our dean informed us that health scis make up ~12% of the med school class at queens and from 10 - 12% of the classes at uwo & u of t. all mcat schools...hmmm Can you give the link? Also, we are talking about Mac Health Sci, not all health sci programs. Just to be clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 Well, lots of first-year bio majors are convinced they need to take calculus for the MCAT. Really? Where on earth did they get that silly idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bling Posted May 3, 2009 Report Share Posted May 3, 2009 Well, Descartes said earlier that roughly half of HealthSci students that get into medicine get into Mac Med, which didn't require the MCAT. It is safe to say that the majority of Health Scis who got into meds, got admitted to schools that didn't require the MCAT (Mac&Ottawa). where is your evidence for this? cling, you should be a lawyer instead of a doctor, your arguments are just so sound and substantiated! i am super impressed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n00b Posted May 3, 2009 Report Share Posted May 3, 2009 this is laughable. as a health sci i can assure you the majority do not get into mac. alot do, but they get into every other medical school as well. our dean informed us that health scis make up ~12% of the med school class at queens and from 10 - 12% of the classes at uwo & u of t. all mcat schools...hmmm that is a ridiculous proportion, is this true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n00b Posted May 3, 2009 Report Share Posted May 3, 2009 Here are the stats for the Mac health sci: For the 07/08 year, 39% got into meds. For the 06/07 year, 48% got into meds. For the 05/06 year, 44% got into meds. Pretty high stats. Can anyone find the Harvard or other Ivy league stats? they send more than 70% of their applicants to med school. harvard is close to 90% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cling Posted May 3, 2009 Report Share Posted May 3, 2009 that is a ridiculous proportion, is this true? The proportion might be true for health science students from all universities, but not just Mac. The majority of Mac Health sci that gets in,goes to Mac and Ottawa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n00b Posted May 3, 2009 Report Share Posted May 3, 2009 ok that makes more sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastriss Posted May 3, 2009 Report Share Posted May 3, 2009 The proportion might be true for health science students from all universities, but not just Mac. The majority of Mac Health sci that gets in,goes to Mac and Ottawa. Is this true? funny how they both don't require the mcat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princess19 Posted May 3, 2009 Report Share Posted May 3, 2009 Is this true? funny how they both don't require the mcat. i am talking about mac health sci only, not all health sci students. and why you keep repeating the same false statement about the majority going to mac & ottawa is beyond me. i would love to see the "evidence". as for what i said about the high proportion of mac health sci @ u of t, uwo & queens, it was a statement made by the dean of our program so questions about it would have to be directed to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cling Posted May 3, 2009 Report Share Posted May 3, 2009 i am talking about mac health sci only, not all health sci students. and why you keep repeating the same false statement about the majority going to mac & ottawa is beyond me. Yeah. Descartes is an ex-adcom at Mac med. About 20% of all Ontario applicants do get admitted into medicine in Ontario in any given year. However, most people interested in medicine when starting an undergrad program never apply to medicine. In other words, considerably less than 10% of all people interested in medicine get into an Ontario medical shool. With Health Sci - virtually 50% of all incoming undergrads get into medicine - with an amazing 25% total going to McMaster medicine alone. 50% get in meds, 25% go to Mac. Therefore,half of the ones getting in, get into Mac. Add on the ones that go to Ottawa, and you can see where the statistic comes from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsage Posted May 3, 2009 Report Share Posted May 3, 2009 Yes, drawn out of thin air and based on little more than anonymous anecdote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastriss Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Ok so if 50% do go to medicine and 25% total go to mcmaster, how do we know the other 25% is mainly ottawa U? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cling Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Ok so if 50% do go to medicine and 25% total go to mcmaster, how do we know the other 25% is mainly ottawa U? Nobody is saying that the other half all goes to UofO. I am just saying that the majority goes to schools that don't require the MCAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bling Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Nobody is saying that the other half all goes to UofO. I am just saying that the majority goes to schools that don't require the MCAT. cling, stop making stuff up. it just makes you look dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Nobody is saying that the other half all goes to UofO. I am just saying that the majority goes to schools that don't require the MCAT. I suppose that is true, if half of those that go to med school from this program happen to go to Mac (which didn't require the Mcat), and any of the other half go to Ottawa. If anything thought that points to health science students having an advantage at their home school. Wouldn't surprise me as the two programs have a related philosophy. If you are trying to determine if a student would be good at PBL, and they just did 4 years of it well then that tells you something Doesn't really say much about their ability to take the Mcat though. Seems like Mac's health science is the program to bash on lately! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n00b Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 how's he making stuff up? he's just repeating what descartes said. if you want to accuse someone, excuse the ex-mac adcom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princess19 Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 i really hope that people are not believing that most mac health scis go to non-mcat schools because it is completely unsubstantiated. it is based on a statement from an anonymous person on a forum who claims to be an ex-mac admissions committee member, and the imaginings of cling which he likes to try and deliver as "facts". things to consider: - yes there are a large number of health scis in mac med school. there is also a large number of us at all other schools, as previously mentioned. however, most of those who ARE at mac received multiple acceptances. ie. my friend who got accepted to u of t, mac & calgary but chose mac because of his preferred learning style. or my friend who got into mac, uwo & queens but chose mac because they live in mississauga. or my friend who got into u of t & mac but chose mac because he wanted to finish in 3 years. mac med school is very appealing to many health scis because we are familiar with PBL as a result of our curriculum. but EVEN if what descartes is saying is true and there are "25% of health scis at mac", that does not include those who wrote the mcat with success and simply chose to be there over other schools where they also received admission. and again, even if "25% are at mac", that is 75% who are not at mac and thus at mcat schools...i don't think i need to point out that 75% is a majority. - this is simply my personal experience, but of all my health sci friends/acquaintances who are currently in med (which is ALOT by the way - being a small program, you get to know what basically everyone is up to), i can think of 10+ people off the top of my head who are currently 1st year at u of t. that is just from my year alone, i can think of many many more in other years. i can think of a similar number at uwo. i can think of at least 6 in my year who are currently at queens. however, i only know of 1 person from my class who is in ottawa. yes this is subjective, but i still believe it to be fairly representative of the class distribution at med schools across the province. - i really wish we COULD get data showing the scores health scis achieve on the MCAT. i think that would put cling's theories to rest, to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cling Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 and again, even if "25% are at mac", that is 75% who are not at mac and thus at mcat schools...i don't think i need to point out that 75% is a majority. 25% of total mac healthsci go to mac meds. 50% or so get in meds. Therefore, half of mac health sci that gets into med goes to mac meds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cling Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 - i really wish we COULD get data showing the scores health scis achieve on the MCAT. i think that would put cling's theories to rest, to say the least. The AAMC reports that the Specialized Health Science students who get into medschool have the 2nd highest GPA on average (tops is Bio Sci with 3.76, health sci is 3.75), but the lowest MCAT scores in all areas, both as applicants and matriculants. Source: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2008/mcatgpabymaj08.htm This is US data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princess19 Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 25% of total mac healthsci go to mac meds. 50% or so get in meds. Therefore, half of mac health sci that gets into med goes to mac meds. you forgot to add an important point at the end of that statement. "according to descartes". aka one person on an anonymous forum. you also forgot to acknowledge multiple acceptances. you make no point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princess19 Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 The AAMC reports that the Specialized Health Science students who get into medschool have the 2nd highest GPA on average (tops is Bio Sci with 3.76, health sci is 3.75), but the lowest MCAT scores in all areas, both as applicants and matriculants. Source: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2008/mcatgpabymaj08.htm This is US data. i am talking about mac health sci. not all specialized health science students. i have heard the dean of our program discuss our program's average MCAT scores, maybe you should email him and see what i am talking about. our program has high GPA's on average. we also have high MCAT scores on average. many health scis get into medicine, at a number of different schools. those are the facts, you can try and minimize them all you like with theories of grade inflation or low MCAT scores (both without evidence), or you could accept that the program attracts hard-working, high-achieving people who decide they want medicine at the start of their 4 years in the program, which is reflected through our stats. i don't know what your problem is but it's annoying. and it makes you look petty and bitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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