Not sure what to do. Need advice.

[crispersdelight]

I go to UWO in 3rd year biology.

 

Marks history:

1st year: ~65 avg, 1 F in calculus

2nd year: 73 avg

3rd year: 80 avg, 3.6 gpa (if all goes as planned)

4th year: ?...going with the trend probably 85.

Graduate honors Bsc

5 year:?

 

Took MCAT summer after 2nd year...got 30Q. Will retake this summer though, been studying on and off since last summer and will dedicate May to August for constant MCAT study only.

 

I know now that I want to go UWO or Queens, the only schools that take best 2 years. Say theoretically I get the minimum GPA cutoffs in 4th year and 5th (special year). Does that mean I automatically get an interview at UWO regardless of my early years and that F?

 

Also, the earliest I can apply is during my 5th special year. Assuming my 4th year meets the cutoff, will I get an interview even though I'm not done my 5th year yet? Is getting the conditional offer harder? WOuld it be better t o apply after the 5th year marks are in?

 

Lastly, I'm not sure about doing the 5th special year or not because it's more specific to UWO. What if I did a masters degree? Would that open up more doors to other schools?

 

Any help appreciated.

[crispersdelight]

I guess my gameplan so far is:

 

Plan A)

Own the MCAT this summer (or next)

Do well in 4th year (have to)

Graduate

Start 5th yr (and start applying to meds and masters)

Hopefully get an interview at UWO based on 4th year GPA

Get conditional offer

Complete special year

Accept offer.

 

Plan

Start masters degree

Raise MCAT if need be

Apply as mature/graduate student

 

Plan C)

Caribbean.

[waterluv]

Masters students rarely get bonus points or special consideration at pre-interview stage. Since you are thinking of UWO and Queens (both have strict GPA/mcat cutoff) I would go ahead with your plan A, and apply in your 5th year (that is only if your 4th year is above the cutoff). As long as your one year is above cutoff, the 1st year calc should not be problem with UWO/Queens, but you will need to get the 5th year grade above cutoff to make your acceptance (that is, if you get one after interview) firm. Good luck and at this time, just focus on your final. While mcat IS important, you will have time during the summer and GPA is much harder to raise...again, good luck!

[Dante]

Flush plan C down the toilet. It's a waste of your money unless you plan on practicing in the caribbean or somewhere outside of Canada.

 

You can apply to UWO with just one year above the cutoff, and there's no disadvantage to doing so.

[Pantaloons]

I know now that I want to go UWO or Queens, the only schools that take best 2 years.

 

Just to clarify:

 

UWO is best 2 years, yes.

Queen's takes most recent 2 years.

 

Your Plan A sounds reasonable.

Don't be afraid of taking a 5th year in undergrad. It seems sucky from the outset, but if you play your cards right academically, it can end up being a great decision.

...and, of course, choose your courses wisely. The cutoffs are blind and unforgiving.

 

Best of luck. Just keep kicking yourself in the ass and conquer those courses!

[crispersdelight]

I understand why you might think that I might not be cut out for meds.

 

But it will come down to my 4th year. Based on those marks I will be able to make a better decision.

 

If my 4th year doesn't cut it, then I will know I need to give up meds. But until that happens I need to keep trying.

[psychopath]

Perhaps someone like you is not cut out for medicine. Your first year, even if taking into account immaturity and family problems, was atrocious. Your 2nd yr was not good, and even your third year would not garner reasonable minimum requirements at any med school in ontario unless you were from the north, mature, aboriginal or francophone (and even then, your first two years would sink you). Presuming a 3.85 next yr is a very very strong presumption. And even your MCAT is not that great...certainly not enough to compensate for your first two years.

 

Right now in Ontario, hundreds of people with 3.85 GPAs (that are commulative) are not getting into meds. And ALOT of them have great personalites, are brilliant, etc.

 

The carrib might be your best choice - but even the top carib schools (like st georges) might be out of your reach. You might be able to get into the us with a residency in family medicine or internal medicine in a sparsely populated state, and as staff receive lower pay rates than those trained at med schools that have real standards for admission. With the us economy as it is, and health care reform coming, the days of foreign doctors with low credentials moving to the us to make a fortune are probably coming to an end.

 

Honestly, IF YOU WERE A PATIENT, would you want your doctor to be someone that did medicine only for a selfish personal dream (possibly encouraged by parents) with poor academic credentials, or someone who had both the drive, maturity and academic credentials to be a doctor.

That was really uncalled for. I understand everyone is frustrated over the admissions process, and that they believe they are good enough to get into med school. However, that is no excuse to pounce on someone like that, especially when they are trying to turn the ship around.

 

To the OP, your grades are a weak point so it would be a good idea to do a fifth year to become more competitive. Other than that, good luck with your ambitions.

[cling]

That was really uncalled for. I understand everyone is frustrated over the admissions process, and that they believe they are good enough to get into med school. However, that is no excuse to pounce on someone like that, especially when they are trying to turn the ship around.

 

To the OP, your grades are a weak point so it would be a good idea to do a fifth year to become more competitive. Other than that, good luck with your ambitions.

 

I don't know...it is very blunt and honest advice. Telling someone that they will be competitive with those stats is bottom line misleading. It's simple as that. If you like treating patients, your best bet is an advanced nursing degree. You will have a chance to diagnose, treat and care and more importantly, it is within your reach. I agree with Descartes, and you should definitely have a plan B and C careers clear in mind. 3/4 of my class in 1st year said they wanted to be doctors, but ultimately many give up that dream following 1st or 2nd year due to their grades. You can try getting a 35+ MCAT and apply to states. Otherwise, regardless what you score in 4th year, you are not a tough contender in any system.

 

 

p.s. Don't get mad. Consider us your free guidance counsellor

[mcpherv]

Perhaps someone like you is not cut out for medicine. Your first year, even if taking into account immaturity and family problems, was atrocious. Your 2nd yr was not good, and even your third year would not garner reasonable minimum requirements at any med school in ontario unless you were from the north, mature, aboriginal or francophone (and even then, your first two years would sink you). Presuming a 3.85 next yr is a very very strong presumption. And even your MCAT is not that great...certainly not enough to compensate for your first two years.

 

Right now in Ontario, hundreds of people with 3.85 GPAs (that are commulative) are not getting into meds. And ALOT of them have great personalites, are brilliant, etc.

 

The carrib might be your best choice - but even the top carib schools (like st georges) might be out of your reach. You might be able to get into the us with a residency in family medicine or internal medicine in a sparsely populated state, and as staff receive lower pay rates than those trained at med schools that have real standards for admission. With the us economy as it is, and health care reform coming, the days of foreign doctors with low credentials moving to the us to make a fortune are probably coming to an end.

 

Honestly, IF YOU WERE A PATIENT, would you want your doctor to be someone that did medicine only for a selfish personal dream (possibly encouraged by parents) with poor academic credentials, or someone who had both the drive, maturity and academic credentials to be a doctor.

 

I agree with psychopath - there is absolutely NO need to come down this hard on someone who is looking for guidance here. They decided to put aside their ego and post their stats in order to try and get some honest opinions as to how they should approach their situation. Additionally, believe it or not, many practising physicians had significantly lower stats than those of us currently in medical school, as the competition wasn't as fierce a number of years ago as it is now - and, despite this, the doctors within our medical system are of a high calibre. Remember as well - empathy and respect for those around you are attributes valued in the medical field as well as intellingence - try not to be so judgemental.

 

 

 

 

To the OP - I did a M.Sc. and, despite performing very well in it, it did little to help get me into medical school. I would echo the sentiments of others here and suggest that you strongly consider doing a 5th year if you can get your 4th year marks up into the ~3.80 range and you can get your MCAT score up into interview range.

[cling]

Additionally, believe it or not, many practising physicians had significantly lower stats than those of us currently in medical school, as the competition wasn't as fierce a number of years ago as it is now - and, despite this, the doctors within our medical system are of a high calibre.

Yeah, but those doctors of "high calibre" were not competing for admission with those of you currently in med school. Chances are they were ahead of their competition, even if numbers are "significantly" different from the ones currently attending meds. Remember it is a relative thing, while you talk about absolutes. In the past few years there coulda been grade inflation/MCAT inflation/ easier ways to get overseas volunteering and so on. Right?

 

Remember as well - empathy and respect for those around you are attributes valued in the medical field as well as intellingence - try not to be so judgemental.

 

Yeah, but as Descartes says, there are many people with better stats that are both empathetic/respectful/etc.. who still get rejected. Currently, any blip is big enough to sink you.

[Guest rpuff]

I think it's important to be realistic, so that you're not foolishly believing that one's stats are fine and there is no need for sgnificant improvement.

 

To the OP, your grades are obviously your weakest point and in order to be truly competitive, especially in Ontario, you need your GPA up in the 3.7-3.8 zone. So do whatever you need in 5th year to make that adjustment.

 

On the bright side, it sounds like you are focused on studying and preparing well for the MCAT. If you can bring your score up over the average ~33 range, maybe in the 35-36 area you could compensate perhaps for the grades. I would also advise to look into each school's application weightings and find one that caters to your strengths. UWO and Queens may be your preference, but for example U of C has one of the lowest GPA standards in the country with an average matriculant GPA of ~3.6. They have little emphasis on the MCAT, and 60% of entry is dependant on your interview. So maybe you have fantastic personal and social skills and could make up ground there. I'm just using U of C as an example, but you get the point. You may find more success if you look for a school that stresses personal strengths rather than academic.

[crockett]

Perhaps someone like you is not cut out for medicine. Your first year, even if taking into account immaturity and family problems, was atrocious. Your 2nd yr was not good, and even your third year would not garner reasonable minimum requirements at any med school in ontario unless you were from the north, mature, aboriginal or francophone (and even then, your first two years would sink you). Presuming a 3.85 next yr is a very very strong presumption. And even your MCAT is not that great...certainly not enough to compensate for your first two years.

 

Right now in Ontario, hundreds of people with 3.85 GPAs (that are commulative) are not getting into meds. And ALOT of them have great personalites, are brilliant, etc.

 

The carrib might be your best choice - but even the top carib schools (like st georges) might be out of your reach. You might be able to get into the us with a residency in family medicine or internal medicine in a sparsely populated state, and as staff receive lower pay rates than those trained at med schools that have real standards for admission. With the us economy as it is, and health care reform coming, the days of foreign doctors with low credentials moving to the us to make a fortune are probably coming to an end.

 

Honestly, IF YOU WERE A PATIENT, would you want your doctor to be someone that did medicine only for a selfish personal dream (possibly encouraged by parents) with poor academic credentials, or someone who had both the drive, maturity and academic credentials to be a doctor.

 

This is probably one of the worst posts I have read, and to find out you are a doctor is actually pretty sad. I wouldn't exactly use the words atrocious for a 63 average in first year, that would be pretty much be right around average for most first year classes at U of T, and if there were extenuating circumstances I have no idea why being an average student would be so terrible. I understand that there are crazy mark requirements now for med school in Canada, and given the number of people applying and the number of spaces, it makes sense, but to say just because someone isn't pulling off 90's in their undergrad they aren't cut out to be a doctor is sheer ignorance. As a patient, it's actually the doctors I have spoken to who got into medical school when it wasn't hard (i.e average marks could get you in) who actually seem to be good doctors, where as the doctors who evidently lived in the library/lab all their lives turn out to be fantastic pathologists and radiologists, but unfortunately their inability to do anything outside of the small little sphere they live in makes them pretty terrible at just about anything else. And finally, do you really think that you need to be all that smart to get A's? University is much more about knowing how to do work than it is about being smart, so if someone is intelligent and has realized they are willing to work hard to get the marks, than I don't think it's a bold assumption by any means. And about the knock on American schools that don't have real admissions standards? Congratulations on graduating from a medical school in Ontario, I'm sure all of your patients make sure to screen you before they let you be their doctor, making sure you didn't attend of those second-tier American schools that just let anyone in. Get off your high horse.

[n00b]

This is probably one of the worst posts I have read, and to find out you are a doctor is actually pretty sad. I wouldn't exactly use the words atrocious for a 63 average in first year, that would be pretty much be right around average for most first year classes at U of T, and if there were extenuating circumstances I have no idea why being an average student would be so terrible. I understand that there are crazy mark requirements now for med school in Canada, and given the number of people applying and the number of spaces, it makes sense, but to say just because someone isn't pulling off 90's in their undergrad they aren't cut out to be a doctor is sheer ignorance. As a patient, it's actually the doctors I have spoken to who got into medical school when it wasn't hard (i.e average marks could get you in) who actually seem to be good doctors, where as the doctors who evidently lived in the library/lab all their lives turn out to be fantastic pathologists and radiologists, but unfortunately their inability to do anything outside of the small little sphere they live in makes them pretty terrible at just about anything else. And finally, do you really think that you need to be all that smart to get A's? University is much more about knowing how to do work than it is about being smart, so if someone is intelligent and has realized they are willing to work hard to get the marks, than I don't think it's a bold assumption by any means. And about the knock on American schools that don't have real admissions standards? Congratulations on graduating from a medical school in Ontario, I'm sure all of your patients make sure to screen you before they let you be their doctor, making sure you didn't attend of those second-tier American schools that just let anyone in. Get off your high horse.

 

being average is pretty bad. it sucks, but it's the truth.

 

and the part about today's doctors being incompetent is a terrible generalization as well lol. c'mon.

[cling]

And finally, do you really think that you need to be all that smart to get A's?

 

Its super easy! So there really should be no excuses... Kinda *****s up your argument. This applicants grades are holding him/her back. It is serious. Chances of admission as of now are slim. I know it feels good to tell people there is hope and that things will work out, but in reality you are not helping them one bit.

 

Get grades up...way up. Do grad school. Ace MCAT. States. Or...prove us all wrong

[crispersdelight]

I know I've gotten myself into a deep hole. But I'm not even going to consider schools that take overall GPA.

 

I will specifically look at schools that emphasize more on personal character and best 2 years.

 

What if I do get 3.8 gpa in 4th year? It's not that difficult. I mean, it is, but if you get all 80s in every class that is 3.7 at Western...throw in a couple of electives and get higher 80s it's within reach. If I can get that, I'll have a shot. Otherwise, I'm done, and nobody knows that better than me.

 

Trust me, I know where I stand, and I know what the reality is. I just don't want to not try and then wonder what would have happened.

 

So as of right now then I will go ahead with my Plan A and hope for the best.

[cling]

Good luck!!

 

p.s. Bookmark this thread. In a year or so you could be writing an end to a very inspirational story!

[crockett]

Its super easy! So there really should be no excuses... Kinda *****s up your argument. This applicants grades are holding him/her back. It is serious. Chances of admission as of now are slim. I know it feels good to tell people there is hope and that things will work out, but in reality you are not helping them one bit.

 

Get grades up...way up. Do grad school. Ace MCAT. States. Or...prove us all wrong

 

Actually, if you read what I wrote, it doesn't ruin my argument. I said that doing well in university has a lot more to do with work habits than your intellectual capacity. I know it might seem strange to a lot of want-to be doctors who have aspired to go into medicine since they came out of the womb reading their MCAT prep books, but some people don't develop a passion for medicine until later in life. If that's the case, is it so surprising that maybe a student is ok with being average in school before they realize what they want to do? I don't think acknowledging that is giving false hope- obviously the applicant knows their first few marks aren't good enough, but to say that maybe they aren't cut out for medicine because...god forbid...maybe they didn't develop the skills necessary to do well in school a little later than most, or maybe they just wanted to enjoy other aspects of university life, is completely ridiculous. As far as generalizing about some med students, of course it's extreme, and obviously there are a ton of well-rounded medical students and doctors in todays system, but I'm pretty sure anyone in science sees more than their fair share of classmates get into medicine, whose university lives consists of school/any research they can do to increase their chance of getting in to med school, despite not being able to function in any kind of social setting as a result. and to be honest, i'd much rather have a doctor who was able to get an A- who can actually talk to me than someone who was an A+ student and lacks that ability, but i think unfortunately as entrance requirements get higher and higher schools have no choice but to favour the latter. anyways, best of luck to the applicant, hope you can prove everyone wrong!

[cling]

but I'm pretty sure anyone in science sees more than their fair share of classmates get into medicine, whose university lives consists of school/any research they can do to increase their chance of getting in to med school, despite not being able to function in any kind of social setting as a result.

 

Oh stop it. The students with A+ averages that I know are inredibly laid back, study less than the rest and party just as much. You need to quit saying that having a life is an antirequisite to having good grades in school because it really isn't true.

 

 

and to be honest, i'd much rather have a doctor who was able to get an A- who can actually talk to me than someone who was an A+ student and lacks that ability, but i think unfortunately as entrance requirements get higher and higher schools have no choice but to favour the latter.

 

A+ students mime to comensate for their complete lack of communication skills. Also, it doubles as an EC on the ABS.

[rmorelan]

A+ students mime to comensate for their complete lack of communication skills. Also, it doubles as an EC on the ABS.

 

Good to know!

[hermite]

Let's just be clear here, there is a difference between saying that (a) someone is not cut out to be a doctor and ( saying that one's current stats are not competitive.

 

Nobody has any right to make judgement (a). As far as what to do now given (, all you have to do is have a high 80 average in your 4th year and you will come close to making the GPA cuts for Queen's and Western, and if not don't give up, just do a 5th year! Your 30Q MCAT (which is actually pretty decent) while maybe falling just short of the current cut offs, I am sure that with the extra studying you are doing that will be above the cut offs. I know people who have gone to medical school in their late 20's and 30's, so whatever you do, if being a doctor is the career you want, don't give up and keep trying!

[imagine]

Honestly, IF YOU WERE A PATIENT, would you want your doctor to be someone that did medicine only for a selfish personal dream (possibly encouraged by parents) with poor academic credentials, or someone who had both the drive, maturity and academic credentials to be a doctor.

 

...So I guess the doctors in the maritimes must be retards? MUN admits NL'ers with low 3's and ~20s on their MCATs. Oh wait, what about London? Western's cutoff for SWOMEN is 8/8/8/O, and these guys have a ridiculously high post-interview admission rate.

 

Also, what about the guys doing 6th and 7th years to boost their GPAs? What about the people who are writing their MCATs multiple times? Should these people be banned from applying?

[mcpherv]

Yeah, but those doctors of "high calibre" were not competing for admission with those of you currently in med school. Chances are they were ahead of their competition, even if numbers are "significantly" different from the ones currently attending meds. Remember it is a relative thing, while you talk about absolutes. In the past few years there coulda been grade inflation/MCAT inflation/ easier ways to get overseas volunteering and so on. Right?

 

 

 

Yeah, but as Descartes says, there are many people with better stats that are both empathetic/respectful/etc.. who still get rejected. Currently, any blip is big enough to sink you.

 

Hermite accurately characterized the issue here - the distinction is that Descartes was making a judgment about the *person* rather than pointing out that they need to do some work to become a competitive applicant. This is what I took issue with - yes, the OP needs to do some legwork, and nothing is guaranteed. However, it is inapropriate to pass such harsh judgment on someone who has a) showed a trend towards improvement and is seeking out opinions as to how to approach their situation.

 

As to the grade inflation point - while this is possibly true, the fact remains that we are seeing more applicants to medical schools per class position now than the schools have had historically (for instance, look at the applicant numbers posted on UoTs website - they have nearly doubled over the last 8 or so years, although their page does not list the number of seats in each of those years). I strongly suspect that many currently practising doctors got into medical school in an era when admissions were not as competitive, and thus the required stats were not as far above the university averages as they are now.

[DOC_Ma]

This is probably one of the worst posts I have read, and to find out you are a doctor is actually pretty sad. I wouldn't exactly use the words atrocious for a 63 average in first year, that would be pretty much be right around average for most first year classes at U of T, and if there were extenuating circumstances I have no idea why being an average student would be so terrible. I understand that there are crazy mark requirements now for med school in Canada, and given the number of people applying and the number of spaces, it makes sense, but to say just because someone isn't pulling off 90's in their undergrad they aren't cut out to be a doctor is sheer ignorance. As a patient, it's actually the doctors I have spoken to who got into medical school when it wasn't hard (i.e average marks could get you in) who actually seem to be good doctors, where as the doctors who evidently lived in the library/lab all their lives turn out to be fantastic pathologists and radiologists, but unfortunately their inability to do anything outside of the small little sphere they live in makes them pretty terrible at just about anything else. And finally, do you really think that you need to be all that smart to get A's? University is much more about knowing how to do work than it is about being smart, so if someone is intelligent and has realized they are willing to work hard to get the marks, than I don't think it's a bold assumption by any means. And about the knock on American schools that don't have real admissions standards? Congratulations on graduating from a medical school in Ontario, I'm sure all of your patients make sure to screen you before they let you be their doctor, making sure you didn't attend of those second-tier American schools that just let anyone in. Get off your high horse.

 

Well I gotta say Descartes post is a bit harsh, but he tells the bitter truth about med school admission, and he gave honest opinion which is much more useful than saying you will be fine with those stats, cause you won't. Also being average is just not gonna cut it, so 63% average is a horrible or atrocious mark. I don't see how his blatant honesty is inappropriate, if one can't even take this much crap now, how are you gonna live through the 4 intensive years of med school? At last, think about what are the chances of a person getting into med school with that stats, so giving up now and realize not cut out to be a doctor might save time, $, instead of finding out not being able to achieve your dream when you are 30 and you are too old and bald to do anything else.

[DOC_Ma]

MUMC does not admit anyone with low 20s on the MCATs, nor do they admit many people with low 3 GPAs at all. MUMC has a mandate to function as a medical school that provides doctors for Newfoundland, and is paid for by the taxpayer of Newfoundland. The people admitted to MUMC are the best applicants from Newfoundland (with some top applicants from OOP and some international). I would suspect proportionately fewer MUMC grads become top researchers (compared to UofT for example) - but most have strong academic credentials and become good doctors.

 

All the UWO admits have MININUM 3.75 averages in at least two years.. That is actually a pretty good GPA. The majority of admits, even SWO admits, have MCATs close to the general cutoff. I don't agree with affirmative action in general, though the mandate of UWO once again to graduate MDs that work in SWO, so I suppose that justifies the lower MCAT cutoff. The MCAT is still used for final admissions purposes still though, and most have high MCAT scores nonetheless as the total cutoff of 30 is still the same as the general populaton and reasonably high.

 

For those of you interested, the MCAT is the single greatest indicator of medschool success, for passing both medical boards and specialty exams. MAC used this info to implement the verbal reasoning component into admissions at McMaster this yr. The sciences are also correlated with success, but slightly less so. GPA is also correlated with success. The interview, references and ECA is the least correlated with med school success, but the MMI is well correlated.

 

Many US schools (NYU comes to mind) used to ban students over 28 from applying, and McGill still discourages anyone applying more than 2 times. I don't agree with that practice, but certainly some places did it, and at some level, still do.

I think harvard bans people from applying more than twice and some other Ivy League schools I don't remember.

[jones_99]

A few points.

 

I think most American schools are fantastic. My 'knock' was against the lower tier caribean schools (reread my post). I even think the top carib schools are not that bad.

 

In regards to people with top marks being nerds...there are plenty of people with great personalities with A+, A and A- averages not getting into medicine. The OP's cummulative average is not even a B yet...might be a B- even.

 

Grade inflation, especially at some schools like MAC, Brock, Waterloo (non eng) and so forth is one of the reasons why things are so competitive nowadays. Back in the 1970s, med schools looked at the undergrad school's competitiveness in making their decisions...at least UofT and Western meds did. They don't anymore, while at the same time, class averages keep going up at most universities. In addition to that, the MCAT can now be written multiple times. Overseas travel is cheaper too, so people can now volunteer overseas with ease. Don't be fooled...the doctors in their 30s to 60s today were among the top students in their era and no dumber than those being admitted today.

 

How are you making that claim... do you go to Mac? I do and there is no "grade inflation" at this school lol....