missy10 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Bottom line is that Health Sci is a bird program, A- average is ridiculous, regardless how well your students do in high school. This is RIDICULOUS!!! it is NOT a bird program I am SICK of you using this language... my housemates are mostly health sciences students, I am in MAC kinesiology... and they work SOOO friggen hard... Cling I think you are just jealous of the program and its ability to TEACH rather than dictate (as am I... but at least I admit it... I have even attempted to transfer in but was not successful and the only reason I do well is because of my insanely smart housemates who make me study ALL the time) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missy10 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Oh and PS Cling... from your posts in this thread, it is clear that you will have issues collaborating with individuals who don't come from your background... oh and no matter what you think about health sciences MANY of them will be your coworkers... you may want to work on your opinion of them... I think you need to take a look at your use of language and how you treat others... good luck on medschool applications... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missy10 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 I think it may be my bad on misunderstanding the info When you say A- average do you mean A- average for Health Sci. students in courses that are composed of many faculties (understanable)? Or do you mean A- average in courses restricted to heath sci students? Just because this thread has been totally hijacked, to the OP do the extra year get a 3.9 and you'll be good to go, your marks are trending up.... the first hypothesis is correct... second one is also correct... the second was imposed as more health sciences specific courses were added to the curriculum... i.e. health sciences students used to take biology with the regular science students but the faculty felt it wasnt specific enough to HEALTH sciences so they began running their own bio and since the health sicences average in the regular bio was around an A- they structured the course so that the same would happen with JUST health sci students because why bell it down if that was the marks they get in other courses when their marks are compared to the rest of the science student body... becasue as most of you know and i know first hand... there are ALOT of stupid ppl who get into MAC Kin for example that keep squeaking by with like a 50% on everything pulling hte average down... and there are no students like that in health sci becaue they were all the tops of their high schools.. so it makes perfect sense... i dont get the issues here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Cartier Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Theres no doubt that there's plenty of brilliant people in Health Sci...or Kin...etc but in the end the courses are easier than pure science courses, and the students, on average, aren't as smart. Yet the course averages still are higher. It might not be a bird program per se because of course theres is plenty of hard work that needs to be put in to be successful. However, relative to eng or science, Health sci and Kin are bird for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tenbruggs87 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Most of my science or eng courses I took as electives WERE my "bird" courses... taking a full year of calculus in first year was like having a spare - I didn't have to go to lecture, I just did problems on my own and wrote the tests and got an easy 12 (MAC scale)... same with physics... writing one or two MCQ tests and one exam in a semester being your ONLY requirements and working by yourself and just doing problems on your own time is way easier than co-ordinating a large group of 10 and doing projects where as health sci keeners every group is trying to put together a more sophisticated project than the other and then you have group meetings that last more than 24 hours and you have to sleep in MDCL in short naps... yea... for sure easier courses than pure science... in summary... course outline for calculus = 4 tests, 1 exam course outline for physics = 2 midterms, 1 exam course outline for chemistry = 2 midterms, 1 exam all mcq... minimum thinking required... you can even guess! total work put in per course = 10 hours the week leading up to each midterm/exam so approx 30 min per course plus a few classes here and there. total time spent on a PBL project based course = COUNTLESS hours researching, convincing group members, making sure everyone understands, realizing you have a hole, going back and researching, convince group members you fixed the hole, make sure everyone understands, oh no something else you have to look into... and the cycle continues... now which is the better way to learn? and which is more difficult? now i agree you can sit back and do nothing in a group but the way health scis tend to run group work and projects... it is MAD intense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missy10 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Theres no doubt that there's plenty of brilliant people in Health Sci...or Kin...etc but in the end the courses are easier than pure science courses, and the students, on average, aren't as smart. Yet the course averages still are higher. It might not be a bird program per se because of course theres is plenty of hard work that needs to be put in to be successful. However, relative to eng or science, Health sci and Kin are bird for sure. hah there are a few upper year kin courses that are pretty bird (i.e. coaching lol) but as there are tons of electives you can make it as difficult/science based as you want... kinda like the health sciences mentality... but first year is DEATH like utter DEATH haha which is why UWO is perfect because they let you drop your worst year which is FOR SURE first year for pretty much ALL mac kin applicants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Cartier Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 I agree, some of the first year science courses are bird courses because of +++ overlap with HS AP and some mcq tests. Calculus and physics were written exams though, so I guess its different everywhere. Most of my health sci courses were mcq tests though. I'm sure you put lots of extra time into your PBL courses, and I'm sure that you'll retain more of it. I'm a big fan of PBL, but that's irrelevant here. All I'm going on is my experience and my subjective communication with peers (from all faculties) - so yeah its subjective to an extent. But health sci courses are bird courses in terms of pure GPA compared to science and engineering courses. But then again, the course averages are higher and the HS entrance grades are lower. That's not subjective. edit: I've never been in a Mac or UWO undergrad course, but yeah they sound like great programs. If I were to do undergrad over again, I'd probably take my science course prereqs as electives in a health sci degree - I'd probably have higher grades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamP Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 So my feelings are, there isin't really such thing as a bird program per se. That being said the environment I come from generally referrs to all non-eng programs as bird programs;) I have many good friends (some of them are doctors now) who went through the health sci (@mac) who were diligent hard workers, and I think the program is interesting from the outside looking in. It incorporates a lot of good aspects of a more socratic method of theaching which I am in favour of. That being said eng is by definition problem based learning, and the stuggles with putting together projects and all are no different from an eng design project. So just to introduce some facts, western the entrance average is 86 and the program average for sci or eng is probably around a B- (2.7) so to go from a program where the average is a bit higher 92ish? and jump to a A- or 3.7 seems somewhat suspect. My conclusion, is there grade inflation, perhaps, it's likely on a small engough scale that it doesn't have an overall effect, and most importantly I didn't choose eng becuase I thought is was going to be a free ride, and I suspect neither do those who choose heath sci at mac.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n00b Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Actually it is true. http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/mcatgparaceeth.htm This link is the official stats for all admitted medical students by race to US medical schools. Average admitted black student has a GPA <3.4. Average MCAT is 25 - and if you note the SD for each component, a not unsubstantial number are admitted with <=21. Average white/asian MCAT is 31-32 - more than a SD more! Having reviewed the data for one large public US school, I know it as a fact. If you doubt me, the UC schools have even more data points and plots for all 5 med schools in their system. http://home.sandiego.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/losangeles/ucla-med-98.html Pretty shocking levels of AA. I am not here to argue for or against AA - but to simply inform you that the advantages are not minor - being black, even if upper class, gives one more points for admission to UM medical school, for example, than having a perfect GPA or 40 MCAT (google it - the official score card for admission to their med school and law school was released by the courts a few years ago). http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/legal_issues/legal_updates/us_supreme_court/race_ethnicity_admissions.htm We in Canada are lucky not to have it. Yes, slight regional preferences occur - but that comes with the understanding that regional taxpayers support the medical schools. Another reason why i love being Canadian. When the Bakke case went against him in Cali in the late 1970's, URM were 14% of the population...a generation later they are 30% of the population and rapidly growing. AA can't be the solution forever. There shouldn't be different standards for future doctors based only on race. Very interesting. Thanks for that information. Still, I don't see how having regional reserved spots is much better as URM policies. They are both based on factors that are completely beyond the control of the applicant, ie. where they grow up and skin color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cling Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 i.e. health sciences students used to take biology with the regular science students but the faculty felt it wasnt specific enough to HEALTH sciences so they began running their own bio Wasn't specific enough? You have 7 electives and you talk about specificity. You guys couldn't tolerate the weight of Science courses, constantly compain about grades and the subject matter is the last concern. Ask any science prof who teaches you people. and since the health sicences average in the regular bio was around an A- they structured the course so that the same would happen with JUST health sci students because why bell it down if that was the marks they get in other courses when their marks are compared to the rest of the science student body Why do that? What is the point...if you guys are already getting an A- minus average, why create a totally different course to have an A- average? Don't buy that. Sorry. ... becasue as most of you know and i know first hand... there are ALOT of stupid ppl who get into MAC Kin for example that keep squeaking by with like a 50% on everything pulling hte average down... and there are no students like that in health sci becaue they were all the tops of their high schools.. so it makes perfect sense... i dont get the issues here... It is this attitude which makes you guys very repugnant. You firmly believe you are the smartest kids who walked the campus. You don't hide it. You get an A-? Better go complain to every TA or prof you can find. It is unacceptable, you were the best students in your highschools, and if you aren't getting A+, who should? The thing is, not every health sci is the smartest kid who walked the campus. I am trying to get recognition for the trully smart students out there, be it an engineer or a physics student or a humanities student. How do we do this? By acknowledging that good engineering,etc. grades are more difficult to achieve than good Health Sci grades. It is true. Now it is time we do something about it in the game of med school admissions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dalboy Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 So maybe this health science program is easy/involves grade inflation. Anyone that went to a private school also had their grades inflated and got better scholarships than us public school plebians. Further, there is huge disparity in difficulty between programs in an individual school. The engineers harp on the science students and the science students on the arts students. We are never on an even playing field and it's your problem if you're in a program you can't handle. I think this mac program could cultivate great doctors but if some people are riding on the hard work of peers then they'd make garbage doctors. This, coupled with the fact that Mac Med accepts all these students, is probably why I've been told by numerous physicians that Mac produces the best and worst doctors in Canada. Unfortunately, schools favour their own; a quick look at western's dean's report is evidence enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~me~ Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Wasn't specific enough? You have 7 electives and you talk about specificity. You guys couldn't tolerate the weight of Science courses Yes, not specific enough. Animal biology and botany (which I think are pretty big components of the 2nd bio although I might be wrong) are two examples of topics that are irrelevant to most people in our program. The learning was also not exactly in accordance with our philosophies of learning. And btw, I don't know if you've heard of TRIPSEs, but they are incorporated into most hth sci courses these days ... so there are exams. Evidence for the 2nd comment? "Couldn't tolerate the weight of science courses" Uh huh... That would explain why many of us take science courses as electives. And most of us do pretty well in them too. Your ignorance is painful. And your comments without proof are even more painful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cling Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 So maybe this health science program is easy/involves grade inflation. Anyone that went to a private school also had their grades inflated and got better scholarships than us public school plebians. Further, there is huge disparity in difficulty between programs in an individual school. Well, yeah...we mustn't pretend it isn't true. Currently, the admissions system assumes that all grades from UofT are equivalent; it is assumed that an A at UofT life sci is the same as an A at UofT Engineering. Is it? No it's not. An engineer who scores in the 99th percentile on a standardized test, taken by 70,000 students annually, is rejected to a health sci who scored in the 80th percentile. Such examples prompt for action. Sure there are health scis who scored in the 90th percentile and that is fine. If anything, the health scis will support the introduction of MCAT because they are all out of this world smart anyhow, and the MCAT will give them a chance to kick everyone's butt on a level field, no excuses. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missy10 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 It is this attitude which makes you guys very repugnant. You firmly believe you are the smartest kids who walked the campus. You don't hide it. You get an A-? Better go complain to every TA or prof you can find. It is unacceptable, you were the best students in your highschools, and if you aren't getting A+, who should? The thing is, not every health sci is the smartest kid who walked the campus. I am trying to get recognition for the trully smart students out there, be it an engineer or a physics student or a humanities student. How do we do this? By acknowledging that good engineering,etc. grades are more difficult to achieve than good Health Sci grades. It is true. Now it is time we do something about it in the game of med school admissions. First of all "you guys" I am NOT a health sci student... and i was saying how there are just alot of dumb people in my program -- KINESIOLOGY.. sooo dont go calling haelth scis arrogant because of MY post... and i know that not every health sci is "the smartest kid who walked the campus" that would be a ridiculous statement to make... there are tons of smart people in other faculties... I would like to say I am one of them but you might perceive that as arrogant... Although I am in KIN I do have a good GPA and obviously am competative for medical school or I wouldnt have gotten an interview at UWO and UofT... sooo cling I dont know why you feel the need to quote me and hten call health scis arrogant... you should read the posts more carefully and contemplate them before responding in such a disrespectful way... and oh with an average of A- there are still health scis who average Bs and lower... also there are some science courses where the average is a B - trust me I've been in them... thats only 2 points lower than a health sci class... so get over yourself and stop btiching about something you cant change - oh and I love health scis... I think that the majority would make EXCELLENT hardworking doctors who also have a personality... many of whom would never post in this thread because that would be just sinking to a level of petty forum arguments that you seem to enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~me~ Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 many of whom would never post in this thread because that would be just sinking to a level of petty forum arguments that you seem to enjoy. Haha, good point I do feel pretty crappy doing this, but I'd probably feel even worse if people came out with entirely wrong ideas of HTH SCI, because of an individual who has a deeply entrenched hatred for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missy10 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Haha, good point I do feel pretty crappy doing this, but I'd probably feel even worse if people came out with entirely wrong ideas of HTH SCI, because of an individual who has a deeply entrenched hatred for it. Yea... but its people who are so narrow minded as cling that mandated me to actually create an account to rebuttal him and others who don't understand the faculty... but oh the things you can say and the way you conduct yourself behind the cloak of anonymity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cling Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 The topic at hand is that not all undergrad degrees are equal in terms of difficulty and that the GPA is not the best way to gauge academic competency between say an engineer and a health science student. We need a better system. As far as these discussions not changing anything, you might also want to look at the discussion we had on the Mac forum. Mac changed its admissions requirements shortly after. Was it due to our little discussion and emails? Maybe, who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missy10 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 The topic at hand is that not all undergrad degrees are equal in terms of difficulty and that the GPA is not the best way to gauge academic competency between say an engineer and a health science student. We need a better system. As far as these discussions not changing anything, you might also want to look at the discussion we had on the Mac forum. Mac changed its admissions requirements shortly after. Was it due to our little discussion and emails? Maybe, who knows. Mac has been contemplating adding the MCAT requirement for YEARS dont give yourself so much credit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
123coco Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 The topic at hand is that not all undergrad degrees are equal in terms of difficulty and that the GPA is not the best way to gauge academic competency between say an engineer and a health science student. We need a better system. People...don't hate the playah....hate the game! hahaha ________ Los Angeles Dispensary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 As far as these discussions not changing anything, you might also want to look at the discussion we had on the Mac forum. Mac changed its admissions requirements shortly after. Was it due to our little discussion and emails? Maybe, who knows. Bahahaha... opinionated and funny. The whole package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastriss Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 This is RIDICULOUS!!! it is NOT a bird program I am SICK of you using this language... my housemates are mostly health sciences students, I am in MAC kinesiology... and they work SOOO friggen hard... Cling I think you are just jealous of the program and its ability to TEACH rather than dictate (as am I... but at least I admit it... I have even attempted to transfer in but was not successful and the only reason I do well is because of my insanely smart housemates who make me study ALL the time) and i am sick of stupid mac health sci students thinking that THEIR program is the only one that TEACHES rather than dictate. They are NOT the only ones. There are tons of other programs that have classes that really test your reasoning through the material than just dumping what you memorized onto a scantron. So for the love of cripes, stop it, just stop it. Again, a lot of queen's life sci classes have low 80s average, and I even had a class with had an 86, yes 86 average. But that class was harder than than all my econ courses where the class averages are consistently low 70s but it is leagues easier to get a higher mark there than it is for those life sci classes. If you want to argue that mac's program is easy go ahead, but using a class average is NOT the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterluv Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 I feel sorry for OP for his/her thread being highjacked into yet another heated discussion about the health sci program. Aren't you all supposed to be studying for finals ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cling Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 and i am sick of stupid mac health sci students thinking that THEIR program is the only one that TEACHES rather than dictate. They are NOT the only ones. There are tons of other programs that have classes that really test your reasoning through the material than just dumping what you memorized onto a scantron. So for the love of cripes, stop it, just stop it. Again, a lot of queen's life sci classes have low 80s average, and I even had a class with had an 86, yes 86 average. But that class was harder than than all my econ courses where the class averages are consistently low 70s but it is leagues easier to get a higher mark there than it is for those life sci classes. If you want to argue that mac's program is easy go ahead, but using a class average is NOT the way to go. It isn't just the Mac health sci program, but it is a very effective example when compared to engineering. I really don't think your program is bad. Don't take it or make it personal. I am just calling for changes in the way med students are chosen. A way which will attempt to account for the grading disparity present between various programs (ie. health sci and engineering). It is an unbiased position, which is easy to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bling Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 It isn't just the Mac health sci program, but it is a very effective example when compared to engineering. I really don't think your program is bad. Don't take it or make it personal. I am just calling for changes in the way med students are chosen. A way which will attempt to account for the grading disparity present between various programs (ie. health sci and engineering). It is an unbiased position, which is easy to understand. Dear Cling, It must be really emotionally draining to wake up every day hating the entire world. If you need to talk, I'm here! - Bling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamP Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 is there a Aling because that would be just great. EDIT: are you the same person as Cling? because you only have 5 posts, all on this thread, and all critizing cling....if you are that would be just great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.